Poll: Question about Superman

[immortalfrieza]

OT:Finally, I'd rather Superman be written as halfway realistic person and thus much more effectively a "symbol." A person as a symbol is so much more effective if that person is something to actually look up to, not a moron who sticks to their morals no matter how little sense they make. A symbol is also more effective if one can see the flawed human being (so to speak) underneath it. Anyone who has plain black and white morals can be a good person, but most people aren't that way. What's truly inspiring is somebody who DOESN'T have such a clear cut obviously good and bad morality and has to struggle with the right course of action with every decision they make and does that right thing despite this, because that's what the vast majority of people are like. This is the reason why I like the post crisis Superman comics much better than the Reeves movies or any other "pure goody good hero" Superman interpretation like them, because they show how much he fights every day to do good despite the constant temptation to do otherwise. This is something I want this of superheroes in general too. Does this mean dark and gritty? Not necessarily, one can have the heroes be actual human beings and their world halfway realistic and still be bright and cheerful, dark and gritty is just the most simple way of pulling this off.

 

[Nosirrah]

I like to imagine him as a man who can destroy the universe with a single punch.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V-fL8zopddI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DV-fL8zopddI

 

[Little Woodsman]

People are saying by breaking his code he'll just end up killing every villain who shows up. To me this is a flawed way of thinking. Soldiers kill people. Police kill people. WHEN THEY HAVE TO. Someone like Superman who has been raised to have sterling moral values will not kill lightly. He will do it only when he has to - like a hell of a lot of people today. These people aren't psychos or maniacs. They are heroes - doing it so that no one else will have to. They are the protectors of our society. So to me a Superman willing to kill, but not wanting to is a far more heroic and respectable superhero than one who won't.

(Next post if you want to hear my actual thoughts on Supes specifically.)

^This. I have always hated comics like Kingdom Come and other similar media for heroes like Superman that always portray the idea that if this "no kill" hero decides to kill, that they'll just morph straight into a totalitarian dictator or psychotic serial killer, (or both) when the hero would have had to be a complete psychopath already for that to happen.

{snipped for space}

I think the worst thing about these "hero jumps right to evil if he kills" stories like Kingdom Come and so forth is that their intended to be and used by the fans as justification for continuing the "no kill" mindset of the heroes. It's the worst because those stories are WILDLY exaggerated versions of the worst case scenario of a hero killing, and as such doesn't justify the position in the least. It's saying "heroes shouldn't kill because (points to Kingdom Come or whatever) THIS would happen" Uh... no, it wouldn't, at least not if the writers were writing the comics in a if not realistic at least a halfway logical manner, instead of like they're shooting up enough drugs to O.D. a small country's worth of people.

Did you even read Kingdom Come? Because that's not what happened in it. Not even vaguely.

Spoiler: spoilers for Kingdom Come

Joker goes on a killing spree in Metropolis. Included among his hundreds of victims is Lois Lane. Lots of heroes are trying to track Joker down, first to find him is a metahuman named Magog. Magog kills the Joker even though he could have easily captured him alive. Superman brings Magog in for killing the Joker. A jury finds Magog not guilty of murder based on the idea that killing the Joker was done to save lives. After the trial, Magog confronts Superman and challenges him to a fight. Superman makes no reply, but flies away and goes into seclusion.
The result is that metahuman battles ESCALATE, as 'heroes' feel free to employ more ruthless tactics against their opponents, and villains fight back with greater desperation than ever. In these newer metahuman conflicts little to no regard is given to collateral damage because the 'heroes' can justify ignoring people's safety in the name of stopping the theoretically larger long-term threat of the villains remaining free.
As the situation continues to spiral out of control, many of the classic heroes retreat from the scene to follow their own paths. Eventually Wonder Woman decides that enough is enough, and contacts Superman. The two decide to try and bring the situation back under control.
Most of the rest of the comic deals with Superman's internal struggles about the things that he has to do to keep people safe--in particular the confining of those metahumans who were theoretically on the side of good, but employed tactics too ruthless to be condoned.
There's more to the story & it's resolution than that, but you'll have to read it if you want to find out.

 

[Drummodino]

OT:Finally, I'd rather Superman be written as halfway realistic person and thus much more effectively a "symbol." A person as a symbol is so much more effective if that person is something to actually look up to, not a moron who sticks to their morals no matter how little sense they make. A symbol is also more effective if one can see the flawed human being (so to speak) underneath it. Anyone who has plain black and white morals can be a good person, but most people aren't that way. What's truly inspiring is somebody who DOESN'T have such a clear cut obviously good and bad morality and has to struggle with the right course of action with every decision they make and does that right thing despite this, because that's what the vast majority of people are like. This is the reason why I like the post crisis Superman comics much better than the Reeves movies or any other "pure goody good hero" Superman interpretation like them, because they show how much he fights every day to do good despite the constant temptation to do otherwise. This is something I want this of superheroes in general too. Does this mean dark and gritty? Not necessarily, one can have the heroes be actual human beings and their world halfway realistic and still be bright and cheerful, dark and gritty is just the most simple way of pulling this off.

Thank you! Finally someone understands my point of view. I have to say you said it better than I did.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Comical. That is to say, he is an optimist and a good samaritan who is sometimes surrounded by bitter, jealous and cynical people who suspect him of ulterior motives because a) 'he isn't human' and b) 'why would a demigod waste his time helping stop runaway trains and putting out fires? He's gotta be up to something!'.

Not as big on him as some heroes- he's the template for most of them and thus has lost a lot of his bite over the years- but I did find the Timmverse animated series engaging at times, with my personal favourites being 'Myxpixilated', 'The Hand of Fate' and 'The Main Man'. As is apparently common in Superman stories, at times he either forgets about his powers or has a moment of weakness at times so a new villain such as Toyman or Livewire can show off. I don't mind such a reduction in his powers for the purpose of drama, nor some flip-flopping on the kill/don't kill rule since sometimes he's up against costumed psychos he thinks can be redeemed, and other times Godly beings and galactic conquerors who could potentially not only murder him, but billions of innocents if he holds anything back.

That's where the "cynicism" part comes in; we live in a world where cynicism/pessimism is the hip thing to do, and here you have a guy that holds his head up high and gives off an attitude of optimism and hopefulness that clashes with the current zeitgeist. Where people would almost RATHER have you suck like them instead of being extraordinary/be in an extraordinary position. THAT'S where some good character conflict could come in; do you just settle for what you have or strive to be the best you possibly can be?

Basically...Superman is just an all around good guy. Not a saint, not a "boy scout", not Space Jesus, he's just a good guy trying his darndest to do good things in a world where assholes don't always do good things/don't appreaciate good guys that do good things. Cynicism should NEVER enter Superman's mind unless it's a story about him overcoming it, because rising above adversity, external and internal, is what makes Superman super.

Pretty much this. Kal-El can be right or wrong on any given issue, but never can he lose his basic faith in humanity's ability to change for the better. This is something illustrated very well in Superman vs. The Elite.