It's sort of complicated... but essentially once you're out of early childhood its hard to successfully pick up new phonemes (the smallest parts of sound used in a language) without a shitload of gruntwork.David Bjur said:
Poll: Rolling R's and Pronouncing L's
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I find both easy (I did Spanish at school) but in the context of learning english as a second language i would imagine it is pronouncing 'L's. Although i know plenty of people who can't roll their 'R's.
If you want a similar situation i lived abroad in a former soviet state and the hardest thing for students learning english was the word 'The' as it wasn't used in their language.
If you want a similar situation i lived abroad in a former soviet state and the hardest thing for students learning english was the word 'The' as it wasn't used in their language.
Since I'm Swedish, speaking with the stockholm dialect, I have no problems rolling the Rs.
I did however have huge problems using the two Rs in Spanish, which always made people laugh whenever I pronounced something wrong (pero vs perro, imagine how it would sound like if I'd say "dog that is so difficult to say").
As a Swedish teacher, teaching Germans, it has been both easy and hard. Teaching a northern German Swedish is almost impossible, because their "french Rs" always stay with them (it is used in southern Sweden but that's not the pronunciation I'm teaching them). Funny enough, Bavarians are the students that have an easiest time to pronounce the swedish language in all cases.
L? huh
I did however have huge problems using the two Rs in Spanish, which always made people laugh whenever I pronounced something wrong (pero vs perro, imagine how it would sound like if I'd say "dog that is so difficult to say").
As a Swedish teacher, teaching Germans, it has been both easy and hard. Teaching a northern German Swedish is almost impossible, because their "french Rs" always stay with them (it is used in southern Sweden but that's not the pronunciation I'm teaching them). Funny enough, Bavarians are the students that have an easiest time to pronounce the swedish language in all cases.
L? huh
I'm English, never spoken a word of Japanese (or any other language than french, which uses the throat rolling R rather than tongue) and I've always been able to do both.. I honestly don't understand how people can't roll their Rs in that fashion. I always thought people were referring to the more guttural throat type when talking about rolling Rs, which is a lot harder since you have to learn to control your throat movements to make a different sound entirely using muscles further back than normal.
Rolling your Rs ala Japanese or Spanish just seems like blowing rasberries >_> just inside your mouth.
Rolling your Rs ala Japanese or Spanish just seems like blowing rasberries >_> just inside your mouth.
Like I said earlier, it was the rolling R she took issue with. She ended up screaming the equivalent of "moo-her" at the screen before I stepped in to intervene.holy_secret said:She could just pronounce the J like H, an acceptable pronunciationGottesstrafe said:TADA
And really Escapist, advertisement captchas? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of trying to fool reading software?
I've been trying to roll my r's since I enrolled in Japanese almost two years ago. I still try and I've gotten better, but I just can't do it yet.
I remember hearing about a king that came to power in Spain and declared not being able to roll your R's a speech impediment. Some people seem to be able to do it effortlessly, though.
I remember hearing about a king that came to power in Spain and declared not being able to roll your R's a speech impediment. Some people seem to be able to do it effortlessly, though.
There certainly are enough natives living proof of that. Not to mention those things like me living here for the last 12 years now, and apparently I still sound "like I'm from above the rivers".Greyah said:
On topic: I grew up speaking both R's and L's, so I can't really relate to any troubles learning them - although I must note that my R's are only rolling, not RRRRrrrrroolling.
I picked up the general sound for how to pronounce L in Japanese very quickly from just watching subbed anime, so I didn't find it difficult at all. Rolling Rs, however, is just something I have always had trouble with. I can do it the odd time when I'm not really thinking about it, but as soon as I actually try to roll my Rs, I can't.
I took Spanish for years in school and I could never roll an r. My teachers eventually just gave up on me and I'd just hold out the r sound (like a pirate!) when it was supposed to be rolling. Now, I just try to avoid words with it when I have to speak Spanish.
As a Texan, I can roll an R without trying. Hell, I can roll an R on it's own until I run out of breath.
Pronouncing L's doesn't even register as something that might be challenging. I still can't fathom how people have trouble with this.
I technically spoke German first, English is my native language, and there are so many Mexicans around here that Spanish is damn near part of our English half the time.
In fact, I very rarely find anything in ANY language that I can't properly pronounce.
Ironically, German is almost the hardest. Most languages' pronunciations I can just simply switch between, but German requires me to sort of shift gears first...
Pronouncing L's doesn't even register as something that might be challenging. I still can't fathom how people have trouble with this.
I technically spoke German first, English is my native language, and there are so many Mexicans around here that Spanish is damn near part of our English half the time.
In fact, I very rarely find anything in ANY language that I can't properly pronounce.
Ironically, German is almost the hardest. Most languages' pronunciations I can just simply switch between, but German requires me to sort of shift gears first...
I can't roll my Rs at all. I can make the sound with my throat, but not my tongue. Hell if I know why. Anyway, I imagine you will be doing a lot more with the L since there aren't really any rolled Rs in english.
I speak English and I can pronounce rolling Rs with no difficulty whatsoever :/
Maybe it's because I learned French as a second language really early.
I can also pronounce L, obviously.
I'd say they're pretty much equal in difficulty. Maybe Ls are easier as less people seem to have trouble with them.
Maybe it's because I learned French as a second language really early.
I can also pronounce L, obviously.
I'd say they're pretty much equal in difficulty. Maybe Ls are easier as less people seem to have trouble with them.
Japanese roll their r's? I can say a Japanese r but not the Spanish rr (then again I could be saying it incorrectly since I use a Japanese l for the r). Personally I would say r and l are the same difficulty to learn but I gave up on rr. Another sound I can't do is hacking lugis when I speak.
I don't know what you're talking about by rolled Rs in Japanese, as that language doesn't do that, unless you're referring to something totally different. I can roll Rs for German and Spanish without any trouble, and I never knew a native English speaker who had trouble pronouncing an L.
My mom is still not able to roll an R and is very frustrated as she's practicing her Spanish. I wasn't able to do it until I was about 18 or 20.
I took one Chinese course in college and was really surprised by how much trouble students who had been studying the languag for 2+ years still had with pronunciation and tones. I learned Chinese in super strict, concentrated environment in the military, and they really forced you to go over that stuff. I wish universities could give a better focus on the speaking early on so that it doesn't become difficult/problematic, since speaking practice is so important to language studies and seems to get completely glossed over in the beginning. :C
My mom is still not able to roll an R and is very frustrated as she's practicing her Spanish. I wasn't able to do it until I was about 18 or 20.
In Mandarin, you have two different types of "sh", "ch" and "j" sounds, sh/x, ch/q, and zh/j. A big distinction between these besides the vowels that follow them is that x/q/j are pronounced with the tongue closer to the teeth and sh/ch/zh are farther back.Chasing-The-Light said:
I took one Chinese course in college and was really surprised by how much trouble students who had been studying the languag for 2+ years still had with pronunciation and tones. I learned Chinese in super strict, concentrated environment in the military, and they really forced you to go over that stuff. I wish universities could give a better focus on the speaking early on so that it doesn't become difficult/problematic, since speaking practice is so important to language studies and seems to get completely glossed over in the beginning. :C
I do know all those things. xD I know all the sounds and I have wonderful pronunciations when reading. I don't know, it's just if I go too fast I slip up a lot. I wish universities were more strict on it as well, but in most universities it's difficult to implement that into Asian languages, since the majority of people (at least where I'm from, anyway) take Euro languages over Asian. So you end up with classes like mine, where there are only 7 people in it. *shrug*Chemical Alia said: