Poll: RPG stat-progression

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Emurlahn

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So, as most of you who have played any RPG might have noticed, is the stat-progression of (some) RPG's quite .. exponential, or at least dynamic. This is, I would believe, to make the game progression more interesting, as you will see a clear change in your characters ability.

This is contrary to reality, where skill-progression is, at some times, almost static, and will hardly change enough to make you do 10x the amount of damage as when you started the adventure.

I wondered if anyone else would be interested in seeing a different statsystem implemented in RPG's.
This is not to say that the current system is bad, but I think it would be interesting to see how a different system would work. (Possibly) A system more based on the players skills to utilize the characters potentiality.

I've played with some ideas myself;
1. Static stats:
Simply put, your stats does not change throughout the game. You might get better gear, better weapons or new skills, but the basic stats that are chosen at the start of the game does not change.

2. Semi-static stats:
This system is based on the static, you choose some stats at the start of the game, and some/most of them will not change. Throughout the game, though, you will be given a choice of adding x points to some stat/s by removing x-1 points from another stat/s. This could happen three to five times during the span of the game.

What do you guys think?
Do you agree, or?
Or maybe you have other (better?) ideas?
 

Darth IB

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The thing is... we (or I at least) like getting stronger. Like becoming significantly more powerful than when I started out.

Besides, static stats would be even more unrealistic, as the experiences the PC goes through are bound to alter him in various ways, e.g. become stronger, wiser from mistakes, etc.

So yeah. I prefer the current system to the ones you've proposed.

Edit: What I might enjoy, however, would be stat progression that matched the actions of the character, i.e. he would have to swing swords and lift stuff to gain strenght, for example. That could be interesting.
 

ChupathingyX

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Emurlahn said:
1. Static stats:
Simply put, your stats does not change throughout the game. You might get better gear, better weapons or new skills, but the basic stats that are chosen at the start of the game does not change.
I think The Last Stand mode in Dawn of War II has a feature similar to that.

You're hero is only as powerful as the wargear they are equipped with, starting off with basic wargear (some good, some useless) and then unlock new wargear as you level up.
 

Lenvoran

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Hmm... I like getting stronger as a character, but not necessarily in terms of bigger numbers. I like to -feel- more powerful as opposed what happens in a lot of RPGs where you get bigger numbers, but the enemy has bigger numbers as well to make the playing field basically the same.

The Ocarina of Time style of advancement was nice. Steadily gaining various tools that allow you to do new things and interact with combat in a different way.

Oblivion at least had the various attacks as you leveled up Blade or Blunt that changed up the combat and allowed you to develop your own strategy with them.

Random numbers that become a higher chance of success as you level are also bad. I much prefer things to be based on what I am capable of as opposed to my character's arbitrary "you x% chance to hit, regardless of what you do" nonsense.

So... Stats? To an extent I suppose. I'd probably prefer gaining abilities and skills as opposed to gaining extra strength or whatever stat I need.
 

Kapol

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May 2, 2010
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The static stat system sounds a bit like Mass Effect in a way, 2 much more then one. You gain new abilities and power them up, but your main 'stats' don't really change. You can only use certain guns based off class, you always run the same speed, and your weapons are the only thing effecting your strength. The only thing I'd say is different is your charisma, but even that's almost entirely decided by your good and evil meter in 2. I can't remember health much, but if I remember correctly, that was mainly effected by armor more then health growing. Is that kind of what you had in mind?

I like the growth system better though. You can make the character more 'yours' by altering the stats and such as they grow. I think Fallout 3 and NV had some of the best. You have your basic level of skills, which you could add one or two points to in the game but naturally remained the same. The specific skills, which you could increase when you leveled up. And then a special skill which you normally chose to help the things you normally do anyways.

I also like that you can't get everything to 100 (there may be some way, but it would take a lot of work and planning and is nearly impossible on your first playthrough without help). The only way they could get away with that though is having the skills advance by choice of skills to rank up by X points during a single game. Leveling them all individually would be annoying. You'd either have to let them all be able to become perfect, or put some silly limit on them that wouldn't make much sense. As well, that'd mean you'd have to deal with skills you only use every once in a blue moon taking up levels that could be used for useful skills.

So basically, diversity is good, but the current system works well.

One final thought to add in: Static really sounds like a shooter more then an RPG. Maybe a shooter with RPG elements, but a shooter overall. Again, like Mass Effect 2.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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I honestly don't care.

I've never placed any significant value in RPG elements/stats/level-ups etc. Their inclusion doesn't make a game worse, so long as the system is competently implemented, but it isn't a selling point either.

I really don't care if my character's numbers get bigger and I don't have any particular need to feel powerful. In fact, I think way too many games focus on the same old power fantasies, I'm a bit sick of always being at the top of the food chain.

The only real use I see for RPG elements/stats is diversifying playstyles. But hardly any games actually use them for that.
 

ChupathingyX

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Kapol said:
I also like that you can't get everything to 100 (there may be some way, but it would take a lot of work and planning and is nearly impossible on your first playthrough without help).
In Fallout 3 it's very easy to do, you can even get all of your SPECIAL to 10.

In New Vegas it is possible to get every thing to 100 but it is much more difficult, also there might be a glitch involved.
 

NickCaligo42

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Kapol said:
One final thought to add in: Static really sounds like a shooter more then an RPG. Maybe a shooter with RPG elements, but a shooter overall. Again, like Mass Effect 2.
Actually, there's a lot of tabletop RPGs that employ semi-static stat systems, most notably Exalted and Shadowrun. I employed a static stat system myself, in a game called Super Smash Quest. It's exactly what it sounds like, an RPG based on the Super Smash Bros. fighting game series.

The premise is that after the tournament in melee, Bowser and Ganondorf, sore losers that they are, left the Stadium to pool their resources and pursue their own devices: namely, attacking the Stadium. Since the Stadium is a place between worlds, it has no defenders of its own. Mario, Link, Kirby, etc. all have their own worlds that they have to defend. So, they recruited some willing fans to protect the Stadium. Professors E. Gadd and Oak combined their efforts to create a device called the Fighter Remote, which could infuse any ordinary person with the powers of the fighters; and thus, the Super Smash Questers were born.

Week after week we'd have a new "episode" following the Star Trek model, with some problem that needed solving in the Stadium, an unusual case in one of the other worlds that needed investigating, or a scheme by Bowser and Ganondorf (and later, Dracula from Castlevania) that needed foiling, usually resulting in an away mission. In between players would be able to compete in the Stadium with one another and even challenge the Smash Bros. fighters.

The stats themselves were derived from Exalted and mostly static, the reason being that this was an extremely long-running game (it's been going on for almost ten years now, in the same IRC chatroom it was founded in) with an extremely large player base (50 people at the game's height) that would gain and lose members all the time. Stability mattered a lot more than power curve or progression in that we wanted new players to be able to jump in with old ones and not feel overshadowed too much and that we wanted to prevent "DBZ syndrome," IE the game's power level spiraling out of control such that the game masters couldn't reasonably keep up with the players without cheating. We'd guess at how powerful a boss needed to be in order to challenge the players, then be way off and have to adjust mid-fight. With a static system, there was no guesswork. We knew exactly how powerful or tricky we'd want an enemy to be in relation to the players, and just... make them that powerful.

The times we experimented with traditional leveling systems always resulted in this in the long-term. But, we still wanted to differentiate peoples' play styles and physical parameters as fighters. That's what the stats mainly existed for, and we found a lot of success with that model. OCCASIONALLY a character would be awarded with a point to advance their stats in some way, but we made sure this didn't happen often.

Progression was handled--as the OP says--mainly through acquisition of new equipment. Players were awarded a salary for every mission that they completed, with bonuses for achievements that they earned, much like the end-of-battle achievements in the Smash Bros. games themselves (star finisher, home run, no specials, et cetera). Those could be used to buy items like the Home Run Bat, Metal Box, Heart Container, and others, which could be carried in a pack and used at will, or to buy "badges" not unlike the ones from the Paper Mario games.

They also could collect the moves of the Smash Bros. fighters not unlike how you collect Pokemon in... well, Pokemon, with the stipulation that they could carry only four at a time on a mission, so they'd obtain greater versatility in movesets as the game progressed, with ones that their stat blocks supported better (IE heavy characters got more benefit out of using Bowser or Ganondorf's moves, fast characters got more benefit out of Captain Falcon or Pikachu's moves, etc.) being generally more desirable and delivering a greater sense of power when acquired. Additionally, moves could be upgraded a la Earthbound, with Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Epsilon, and Omega versions of all the special attacks, and there was an expanding set of "normal" moves that could be chained into combos.

All in all it's still one of the best role-playing games I've designed, which is pretty bloody ironic, and players never leveled up once and barely advanced in stats. The stability it afforded us saved us a metric ton of time we'd have wasted balancing numbers and made it easy for GMs to host and develop challenges for, which is really the bottom line of why you'd adopt a more static system to begin with. You don't even want to know how much effort goes into estimating the power curve of a some-several-dozen-levels-high system. Ever notice how often World of Warcraft has revised the character classes' abilities and balance, or how much errata D&D 4th edition has released? Yeah. Even when the game's finished, it's not even close to perfect and it's full of exploits and holes.

Now, part of the problem with this is that it really only works in the context of differentiating multiple players, with groups of people being able to fill in for one another's weaknesses. In a game with a create-a-character system it can work just fine, as there's still this element of playstyle building to it, but there's a problem in that the player never gets the opportunity to fill in weaknesses. Still, I'm a big advocate of more static systems as developers don't have to waste so much time trying in futility to balance numbers and it creates a more grounded atmosphere. Plus, to be perfectly honest, most RPG developers can't seem to balance or implement stats and leveling systems to save their lives. Bethesda's stat system always felt like a bloody mess to me, for example, and Mass Effect 1's seemed very clumsy, like it was there just for the sake of putting one and not because the developers had a clear idea of what they wanted to do with it.
 

veloper

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It's worth trying something different just for the sake of variety already.

Semi-static opposed to the Bethesda model, where a PC can just get 100% at everyhting with enough grinding, is always good.
Make the player choices at CC have some meaning during the game.
 

Kapol

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NickCaligo42 said:
That is an interesting way to run a more 'tabletop' RPG (I wrote 'tabletop as it sounds to be an online one instead of physically meeting to do it based off what you said), but in terms of making a video game, it'd be much more difficult. You're using elements that you've already gotten from other games specifically. Namely: the pokemon move system, the item management system using the items from the SSB game and tweaking the stats, and so forth. You can't simply just take a game's elements like that when designing a video game.

There's also the fact that, in a tabletop RPG in general, there's much more control over the player. Imagine that in your RPG, you'd have 20% or so of your players always trying to 'cheat' the system to make them incredibly powerful. You, or a fellow GM, would be able to personally deal with these problems, harshly if it comes to it. In a video game, they don't have the same ability. Once they ship the product, people can find every little loophole and exploit it, ruining all of your balance and work. Not only that, but then they can tell others about it, and soon enough anyone who wants to google it can find a way to get infinite strength or similar stats. Plus, you won't be able to account for every tiny glitch in the game's system that allows the player to mess with it by the time it's released, and getting rid of any updates that may fix it is very easy to do (just look at the console version of Oblivion for an example of that).

So getting rid of the total control the GM has, it makes it much more difficult to make a real static stat-based game. Now, your example also has the benefit of having multiple people. Single player video games make these sorts of advantages void. If you can't power up your character, then that suggest that, to some degree, everyone from the biggest boss to the smallest slime are at least fairly even in power in that world. That's not always a bad thing though. It just makes things seem uneven... as if you're not the only person who could do this, but rather someone who just picked up a weapon and did it because everyone else is too lazy.

Then, I'd argue that your RPG, based on the explanation, actually DOES have a leveling factor to it. As you explained, players would get money for each battle, particularly for the end of battle stages. They can then spend that on getting betters items that improve their stats or new moves. How is that really any different then experience? The names are changed, but your still completing task X to get thing Y so you can improve your skills to Z. The only real difference, I'd argue, is that in that idea you can actually 'downgrade' your skills by selling items or switching them out.

But, just so I make sure I'm clear, I do like the game idea you explained. It's interesting, and it seems fun. I'm just pointing out that, in terms of a video game, it wouldn't work so well, and a few other things. I actually run a few things sort of like that myself, though mine are much looser about rules and stats (never had the chance to play a tabletop RPG as I live in the middle of nowhere surrounded by rednecks). So I can appreciate the system, and as I'm learning by something the hard way right now, dynamic elements are hard to keep track of in more RPG settings. I've also fallen for the 'DBZ syndrome' myself. But I also think it makes it more interesting as well. I do appreciate that you needed to have the semi-static (which even your game isn't truely static like the OP is suggesting) to keep things going though, and it does make sense when players jump in and out. So interesting concept in the end.
 

kayisking

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Darth IB said:
The thing is... we (or I at least) like getting stronger. Like becoming significantly more powerful than when I started out.

Besides, static stats would be even more unrealistic, as the experiences the PC goes through are bound to alter him in various ways, e.g. become stronger, wiser from mistakes, etc.

So yeah. I prefer the current system to the ones you've proposed.

Edit: What I might enjoy, however, would be stat progression that matched the actions of the character, i.e. he would have to swing swords and lift stuff to gain strenght, for example. That could be interesting.
They did that once in a game called Oblivion. It was awfull.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Darth IB said:
The thing is... we (or I at least) like getting stronger. Like becoming significantly more powerful than when I started out.

Besides, static stats would be even more unrealistic, as the experiences the PC goes through are bound to alter him in various ways, e.g. become stronger, wiser from mistakes, etc.

So yeah. I prefer the current system to the ones you've proposed.
agreed, i love being He-man by the end of the game and starting off like...well like me.


so yeah, no thanks OP
 

Mr Thin

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Sorry, but I like neither of your ideas. They sound like crippled versions of the standard form.

Becoming really powerful is awesome. However, I agree it often doesn't make much sense, and is never really justified. I've never been particularly bothered by this, but I would appreciate a game that went to the effort of making character development believable.
 

DeadlyYellow

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I always preferred the Elder Scrolls method. You level up skills through use, and increase base stats through skills.