Poll: School District about to Get Sued

[GloatingSwine]

Yes it's okay and should be permitted. Public schools are funded by taxpayers, therefore taxpayers should have the right to practice their beliefs, and their children should also have the right to practice their beliefs, in public schools and other publicly funded places.

So why should only the Christians be allowed to practise their beliefs? Because that is the situation which occured. One set of beliefs was given primacy, all others were ignored. That is the problem.

 

[Wintermoot]

yes I,m a atheist and I don,t mind it that people want to pray it,s called "FREEDOM OF RELIGION"

 

[Mallefunction]

A school should never lead a prayer even if people aren't being forced into it. Separation of church and state after all. People are free to pray to their hearts content on their own, but a school should neither condemn nor condone any religious acts.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Majority rule is not always correct. There are a ton of examples that clearly illustrate that (earth is flat, zeus causes thunder, burning witchs is a-ok are just a few examples).

Okay...and? You're invoking 'slippery slope' logic if you're taking those examples and using it to call into question the validity of any majority opinion.

When the founding fathers decided to make the U.S. a secular country, it wasn't out of empathy towards the non-religious but rather to protect the religious. It stands as a matter of fact that religions are mutually exclusive, that is if my god is true, yours is false. If I go to heaven, you burn in hell. By sponsoring any specific religion state wise, you deny and openly condemn any other religion that diverges from their beliefs.

Not the way I remember it. The parameters for entry into the various forms of afterlife generally have to do with morality, not with believing highly-specific things. It probably helps to follow the religion (since it generally states what those morals and values are), but I don't see the usual characterization of a kind and loving God condemning everyone who happened to be reading a slightly different version of the same general story.

Saying that they should offer prayers to all religions is ridiculous, there are far too many of them to account for.

That's fortunate, because I never suggested they do that.

The moment of silence that they had decided upon was by far the best solution, giving time for self-reflection and religious prayer while maintaining neutrality. However they broke that for some ridiculous rant, defying the 14th amendment.

I can't help but feel like if the kid had simply asked for something like a moment of silence, it might've actually yielded results. Structure a sound argument around it, appeal to a diversity of beliefs, etc.

Instead, he threatened the superintendent with action from the ACLU. Is it really surprising that things didn't go over well?

Saying "just stay quiet and let them pray" is not a fair solution, and in fact goes against the religious freedom the American flag is so fond of proclaiming.

...wait, what? Hang on, let me get this straight: allowing others to pray out of respect for their beliefs despite not having them yourself is a violation of American religious freedom...but threatening legal action if those same people don't keep their prayers to themselves is not?

 

[Lone Skankster]

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

You added two new letters there. It's freedom 'of' religion, not freedom 'from.' The kids aren't being forced to go to church the day of graduation.

I will respect your religion as long as you respect my right not to have one. Leave it out of schools. You want to thank God for everything you have up to this point? Thats fine. The whole audience and school staff doesn't need to be involved with your personal thank yous.

When my family says Grace at a meal or Thanksgiving, or something of the sort, I let them. Its their homes and their choice. I will respect their rituals, but I will not take part in them.

Again, A system of education has no need to include religious ceremonies.

This:

Actually, it's more along the lines of "The government of the United States shall not make any law endorsing a particular religion..." Christian prayer in a government institution? Sounds like an endorsement to me.

Also,

So he's a hero to you, even if he's hated by his community? And all because he was unreasonably demanding that his constitutional rights be followed to the letter rather than the spirit of the law? I can only imagine how ecstatic you get when WBC pickets military funerals. After all, they're reviled by the community, but they're celebrating freedom of speech. They must be heroes!

I Didn't say this. it was a response to my statement. But on that note, WBC does have the right to free speech. They also have the right to make themselves look uneducated and push people away from religion as much as they like.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Not according to the Bill of Rights. If anything, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" makes it sound the other way around.

It seems like a lot of people don't realize that "separation of church and state" was an effort to keep religious establishments from being manipulated by the government, not the other way around. Of course, that means that laws can't be based on religious beliefs because they need to be applicable to people of various other beliefs, but yeah.

The overwhelming body of precedent disagrees with you. Overt religious acts or displays by employees of the government acting in their official capacity have been repeatedly rules as violating the establishment clause. You do not have a leg to stand on here.

The POTUS ends his State of the Union address with "God bless America." It's not larger a part of what he's there for than a short prayer in the middle of a graduation. It's a nod to religion more than anything else, and it plays no role whatsoever in the event itself.

Ironically, I could even argue that the only reason why it's there is out of respect for your beloved precedent.

 

[YesIPlayTheBagpipes]

yeah, i don't think that the best way to make sure all religions get a fair and equal hearing is by outlawing them all. it's like the French "Well, you zee zeeze foriegn-type men, zay force zere vimmin wear zeeze vielz, zo ve vill force zem not to!"

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Student who complained is a dick. What did he/she/it expect when they called the superintendent and threatened to call the ACLU if the school didn't make changes to the graduation ceremony?

"...emotionally distressing on anyone who isn't a Christian?" Really? This kid is the worst kind of Atheist: the kind who hyperventilates at the thought that someone nearby might be thanking God on one of the biggest days of their lives.

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

You added two new letters there. It's freedom 'of' religion, not freedom 'from.' The kids aren't being forced to go to church the day of graduation.

Actually, it's more along the lines of "The government of the United States shall not make any law endorsing a particular religion..." Christian prayer in a government institution? Sounds like an endorsement to me.

That assumes that public schools are run by "government,"

They are. The government controls the money public schools get and can control what they may do.

Way to not read the rest of my post. Hell, you didn't even pull a complete sentence for the out-of-context quote.

They are public institutions sponsored almost entirely by the government. They are therefore part of the government. They have the final say in what happens there anyway.

You just re-worded what you said before. You still didn't look at the body of my post.

Oh well. Ignoring you now.

 

[Ensiferum]

Yes it's okay and should be permitted. Public schools are funded by taxpayers, therefore taxpayers should have the right to practice their beliefs, and their children should also have the right to practice their beliefs, in public schools and other publicly funded places.

So why should only the Christians be allowed to practise their beliefs? Because that is the situation which occured. One set of beliefs was given primacy, all others were ignored. That is the problem.

I didn't say only Christians should be allowed to practice their beliefs. Besides, what's stopping other graduates from opting not to take part in the prayer portion of the ceremony (if they're Atheists) or if they're from another religion, what's stopping them from working to include their own type of prayer in the ceremony?

 

[Bags159]

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

You added two new letters there. It's freedom 'of' religion, not freedom 'from.' The kids aren't being forced to go to church the day of graduation.

I will respect your religion as long as you respect my right not to have one. Leave it out of schools. You want to thank God for everything you have up to this point? Thats fine. The whole audience and school staff doesn't need to be involved with your personal thank yous.

When my family says Grace at a meal or Thanksgiving, or something of the sort, I let them. Its their homes and their choice. I will respect their rituals, but I will not take part in them.

Again, A system of education has no need to include religious ceremonies.

This:

Actually, it's more along the lines of "The government of the United States shall not make any law endorsing a particular religion..." Christian prayer in a government institution? Sounds like an endorsement to me.

Also,

So he's a hero to you, even if he's hated by his community? And all because he was unreasonably demanding that his constitutional rights be followed to the letter rather than the spirit of the law? I can only imagine how ecstatic you get when WBC pickets military funerals. After all, they're reviled by the community, but they're celebrating freedom of speech. They must be heroes!

I Didn't say this. it was a response to my statement. But on that note, WBC does have the right to free speech. They also have the right to make themselves look uneducated and push people away from religion as much as they like.

Hey, your quote from me; I didn't actually say that. So either fix your shit or remove the quote.

I clicked on the link and my post says:

1.) Live in Bible-Belt
2.) School assembles for prayer
3.) Every single student besides you is praying

At what point can this not lead to emotional distress?

Using this logic we shouldn't enforce speed limits either because they're hated by the community.

Is there a rule like "godwin's law" for comparing someone trying to uphold the law to the WBC?

Here's who you meant to quote:

Actually, it's more along the lines of "The government of the United States shall not make any law endorsing a particular religion..." Christian prayer in a government institution? Sounds like an endorsement to me.

Thanks!

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Wow, are those links for real? Those are either some extremist militant Atheists, or a really dedicated trolling site.

I think that if he really is that offended and "emotionally distressed" by people praying, then they should just forget about publically saying the prayer.
In my old Primary and Secondary schools, our headmasters were Christians, to close our daily assemblys they would always get everyone to say the Lords Prayer. There was a guy there whose father was an athiest and objected to him being there for prayers and Religious Education, so he was allowed to leave at those points. There was no big deal made of it, because it wasn't a big deal.

I even know some strict Christians who wouldn't pray along, because the prayer was always viewed as a bit of a joke, especially since the Protestant and Catholic Lord's Prayer differ, and the Catholics would finish the prayer first, while the Protestants would ramble out a few more sentences. Fun times.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

I guess my problem with the kid is that he seems like the type of person who gets offended whenever there's a joke about orphans in Portal 2 and becomes one of those people who continually threaten legal action everytime life offends him.

 

[The Random One]

It's amazing how the school board is the only one who acted like sensible adults. The guy already started out by shouting 'DO THIS OR I WILL SUE' and all of the pro-prayer people are already thrash-talking him. Way to defend your respective positions, guys.

My favourite part is the website suggesting that in the middle of the prayer the girl who started it should have been tackled off the stage.

Technically, he's in the right, so he's in the right, period. If he had been kinder in his correspondence I would look higher on him, but that doesn't change it.

 

[kikon9]

If the students want to pray, fine, more power to them.

But if the school forces kids to pray, there's a problem.

 

[Dastardly]

http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/05/20/this-district-is-about-to-get-sued/

I was Browsing Fark and i saw this article. it blows my mind that prayer is still such an integral part of a schools graduation ceremony when it has been deemed illegal several times by the supreme court. I myself am an Atheist, however i do believe people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe in private, in public especially places built by and paid for by the Federal Government religion has no place. Your Thoughts?

EDIT:Imagine the poll says "is it okay for a public school to lead a prayer?" im a newb dont know how to change poll.

I don't pray. Other people do. And yet, try as I might, I just can't get angry or feel "infringed upon" by this. Because I don't resent the other people for their religious choices.

Imagine if, instead of an atheist, you were a vegetarian. Would you get pissed off in a restaurant if everyone around you was eating meat? No. Because you don't have to eat meat just because they can. And they shouldn't have to go without meat just because you don't want to eat it.

Legislating for the lowest common denominator is not and never will be how it's done.

EDIT: Also, those folks who claim to be "emotionally distressed" at the fact that people around them are praying? Seriously? You can't emotionally handle the fact that people around you--even a majority of the people around you--might have a different opinion/belief/etc. that they'd like to express? Wow--talk about extremist religious intolerance. Fundamentalist atheism seems to be the new vogue.

Seriously, you don't see how that's worse than inviting people to pray if they choose? Allowing people the ability to choose is emotionally distressing to you, because you're just so afraid that too many of them won't choose what you think they should?

 

[Lunar_Knight]

What an ass. (The guy in the article, not the OP) Why would he care if people around him prayed? It's not like he was being forced to, they just have a prayer in the ceremony. That doesn't mean you have to pray too.

right on dude, i was just about to say pretty much the same thing

You two are both correct. that kid is a grade A douche, and lol at "friendly atheist" site all the comments were about donating to the kid to help his cause of undermining religions, but i mean since there all "friendly" i guess they were doing it out of kindness.

Oh el oh el
You do realize all these 'Lovely' Christians have been threatening him, his Christian parents have thrown him out and hes received all kinds of abuse even going as far as death threats.
And you try to point out the people trying to give this guy support since hes now lost it because of the kindness his parents have shown him?
Yes you sir are a Douchebag.

 

[BanthaFodder]

I'd say it's ok if people in the school want to have a big group prayer, but it should be perfectly acceptable for people to sit out. Saying that no-one should pray is just as bad as saying everyone should.

^^this pretty much sums up my thoughts

 

[joystickjunki3]

Does it say specifically Christian prayers? This is ridiculous; separation of church and state does not explicitly mean that public institutions cannot lead in prayer of some sort (I would be tolerant of all religions leading in prayer whether it was Christian, Jewish, Islamic, etc.). At my college graduation ceremony a couple weeks ago, the university president led the entire group in prayer, and I saw no one contesting his right to do so.

Obligatory disclaimer: I am an atheist who supports the rights of religious and non-religious groups alike.

[edit] That said, the boy does not deserve that kind of treatment.

[edit edit] Upon viewing the video on Friendly Atheist's site and the response to said video from Jen McCreight, I just can't believe that an apparently intelligent person is suggesting that the school should've have removed the student who led the prayer at the rehearsal from the stage. Students are legally allowed to lead in prayer at school and removing her from the stage would have been violating her free speech in this case. It's very difficult for me to sympathize with the argument, "Don't violate my rights, but I'll violate yours."

 

[intheweeds]

The question doesn't have an answer i can get with so i said no, even though thats not what i think entirely.

If the question is 'Is it OK to pray in school?', then i would say yes-on your own.

If the question is 'Is it OK for prayer to be part of the school day, such as teacher lead prayer after morning announcements or before lunch or whatever?', then i would say no.

The reason I believe this is: whose religion's prayers are we talking about? you can't cover everyone and you can't leave anyone out without some child somewhere being unrepresented. So i say, prayer on your own is fine. The school shouldn't lead it though.

I feel like a student leading a prayer at an assembly is fine though. A student can, not a teacher. It's a very different message coming from the system.

 

[feather240]

What an ass. (The guy in the article, not the OP) Why would he care if people around him prayed? It's not like he was being forced to, they just have a prayer in the ceremony. That doesn't mean you have to pray too.

EDIT: I don't believe in God, but to take prayer away from someone who does, is just fucking wrong. If you think people saying a prayer out loud, in a public school/setting is wrong or it's 'forcing religion down your throat' then you need to get over yourself and find something better to do.

When I read this part, it really angered me.

-'My reasoning behind it is that it?s emotionally stressing on anyone who isn?t Christian.'-

Get a life.

EDIT 2: After reading more of that link the OP gave, I'm guessing the site isn't legit. It sounds fake. Just like the Portal 2 gay sex review.

My school stopped me form having my own little prayer during our graduation ceremony since "it was mainly for local churches and not my religion."

and yes, the fact I couldn't thank whomever I believed in was very, very stressing, namely around the part that the Valedictorian was able to thank "God, her church, her family, and Jesus for allowing her to do all so well in school".


My taxes go to school districts like this one, and the law STATES that prayer in schools is forbidden.


don't like it? go to a religious school instead of a public one.


furthermore, I find it hilarious that the beliefs of one person should be marginalized for the majority. Great way to show how far our DEMOCRATIC country has come from trampling on the rights of others.

Isn't democracy run by the majority?