Poll: Sexism and Japan

[Ryan Hughes]

Weird. Why would birth control be a issue in a country with declining birth rate? More women want to have children?

I am speaking historically, since the end of WWII and the end of American occupation. The birth rate is declining because women's activists have succeeded in legalizing pill-form birth control, along with other societal factors like quality of life and health care.

Before and after WWII, the west experienced what was called "Second Wave" feminism. this included a much more philosophical debate about the role of women in society, and where traditional roles came from. Simone de Beauvior and other feminists wrote extensively on the concept of gender, while in the east, things were different. China was just consolidating its cultural "revolution," Korea would soon be at war, and Japan turned less to the philosophical and more to the concrete. In 1945, the new Japanese constitution allowed for Women to vote, but there was still much to do.

So, the right to hold jobs and receive pay was among the first priorities for Japanese women, even into the '50s. More modernly, women can now hold office and have equal rights to employment, and Prime Minister Abe has attempted to appoint more women to the cabinet. Which has actually been a failure considering that his commerce secretary recently resigned in disgrace after accusations of misappropriating public funds for things like spas and make-up. . .

In any event, this is renewing some old controversies in Japan, and perhaps a more philosophical discussion is on the way, but traditionally, Japanese feminists have not engaged in much media criticism.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Oh wow, I didn't know there were actual terms in Japanese for a person's true feelings and desires as opposed to what society expects them to show on the surface. I deeply respect that approach to life, as in many ways it empowers people to explore whatever crazy fantasies, fetishes and hobbies they might enjoy (as long as it's law-abiding and doesn't bring harm to anyone else...obviously).

Or to put less subtly, "Want scantily-clad women in your entertainment? No worries, here you go! (but keep it to yourself)"

Weird. Why would birth control be a issue in a country with declining birth rate? More women want to have children?

I think he probably meant stuff "along the lines" of birth control i.e. real issues affecting real people.
Last I heard Japan REALLY wants more young couples to have more babies. Especially in towns outside the cities where the aging population is more evident than ever and it's starting to affect the economy in those areas.
They should start hanging signs everywhere which read "GET BANGIN"

 

[Rahkshi500]

Oh wow, I didn't know there were actual terms in Japanese for a person's true feelings and desires as opposed to what society expects them to show on the surface. I deeply respect that approach to life, as in many ways it empowers people to explore whatever crazy fantasies, fetishes and hobbies they might enjoy (as long as it's law-abiding and doesn't bring harm to anyone else...obviously).

Or to put less subtly, "Want scantily-clad women in your entertainment? No worries, here you go! (but keep it to yourself)"

Weird. Why would birth control be a issue in a country with declining birth rate? More women want to have children?

I think he probably meant stuff "along the lines" of birth control i.e. real issues affecting real people.
Last I heard Japan REALLY wants more young couples to have more babies. Especially in towns outside the cities where the aging population is more evident than ever and it's starting to affect the economy in those areas.
They should start hanging signs everywhere which read "GET BANGIN"

If only we were at the moment where cloning people was fully functional and safe to use. Problem solved!

 

[Starbird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSL2wvlq0Q

Here's a vid courtesy of Gaijin Goombah in the style of Moviebob's "A Big Picture" series about Japan and it's Views of Sexism.

Bringing to the escapist forums because, It's an issue that will interest many.

Edit: Option 1 is I agree.
Edit 2 : Guys calm down. I didn't know this video would be that controversial.

As someone who works and has lived in Japan for a fair while now - yes, it's still fairly sexist but actively working to change.

 

[Bruce]

The problem with Gaijin Goomba's analaysis is...

When it comes to Japan and hypersexualisation, for the most part it comes down to one company - Team Ninja. Okay other companies do make sexy characters, but it tends to be part of their characters.

They're written a lot better, consequently meaning that Japan produces some of the best female characters in gaming.

They are often sexy rather than simply sexualised.

With Team Ninja, there is a problem specific to how that company portrays women.

 

[giles]

*reads title*
*clicks on thread*
*some random youtube video by a guy who doesn't even give any sources in the description*
*carefully read title again*
*nope definitely says "Actual Research"*

Yea no this is just some white guy who lived ~3 years in Japan and tries to explain his view of the country as gospel in a 3,5 min long cartoon video with a sped up voice over. I didn't exactly expect high brow research considering the topic, but I kinda expected more than... that.

 

[the7k]

Team Ninja

I honestly feel like Team Ninja doesn't even care about Japan anymore, if we are talking the DoA series.

The DoA series hasn't seen an arcade release since DoA2, and I'd say DoA1 and 2 were well before they went overboard with the fan-service and all that. While I didn't spend a whole lot of time in Japan, I can definitely say any fighting game that is not given an arcade release is pretty sure to be dead in the water when it comes to Japan.

Yes, the DoA series has become fan-servicy well beyond mainstream Japanese games to being down-right trashy - but I feel like they aren't even targeted at Japan anymore. I feel like it's purely being made for Western audiences at this point. It's being made for that "Sex Sells" mentality.

Hell, DoA3 and 4 were Xbox exclusives. I can't think of a better way to say "We don't care about Japanese sales" than that.

 

[Rahkshi500]

*reads title*
*clicks on thread*
*some random youtube video by a guy who doesn't even give any sources in the description*
*carefully read title again*
*nope definitely says "Actual Research"*

Yea no this is just some white guy who lived ~3 years in Japan and tries to explain his view of the country as gospel in a 3,5 min long cartoon video with a sped up voice over. I didn't exactly expect high brow research considering the topic, but I kinda expected more than... that.

If anything, don't blame the video itself, blame the OP for making the title the way it was. It would've been better if the title and opening post was written to invite discussion rather than to make a statement.

 

[grassgremlin]

*reads title*
*clicks on thread*
*some random youtube video by a guy who doesn't even give any sources in the description*
*carefully read title again*
*nope definitely says "Actual Research"*

Yea no this is just some white guy who lived ~3 years in Japan and tries to explain his view of the country as gospel in a 3,5 min long cartoon video with a sped up voice over. I didn't exactly expect high brow research considering the topic, but I kinda expected more than... that.

Sorry. I fixed it by removing the actual research part.

 

[grassgremlin]

*reads title*
*clicks on thread*
*some random youtube video by a guy who doesn't even give any sources in the description*
*carefully read title again*
*nope definitely says "Actual Research"*

Yea no this is just some white guy who lived ~3 years in Japan and tries to explain his view of the country as gospel in a 3,5 min long cartoon video with a sped up voice over. I didn't exactly expect high brow research considering the topic, but I kinda expected more than... that.

If anything, don't blame the video itself, blame the OP for making the title the way it was. It would've been better if the title and opening post was written to invite discussion rather than to make a statement.

I apologize and I've changed the topic removing the message.
I make mistakes. I am human.

 

[Rahkshi500]

I apologize and I've changed the topic removing the message.
I make mistakes. I am human.

It's alright, but personally, if you wanna make a post about actual research and data, it should at least be important to check the sources of what you're reading/watching first. Just a future tidbit.

 

[Kyber]

If Japan ever changes gaming will be dead.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I wouldn't consider this an in depth look at a complex issue, but I did learn a few things.

I think there's definitely sexism in the industry though. Hideaki Anno (EVA) gave us this little gem, after all:

"You need to understand that Japanese animation is an industry that is, for the most part, male, and as is quite evident, everything is made for their gratification. Further, it is more gratifying for us to draw this sort of [sexy]character, rather than old grandmothers."

This isn't too different from the Western mindset though, specifically in regards to comic books. Many of the most celebrated comic book artist have made a career of drawing pin-ups. And that isn't just because it sells, they themselves just like drawing pretty girls.

Yeah, fuck you Anno. Anime can be beautiful, emotional, and impactful. It can also be some of the filthiest smut out there. Women are often degraded and treated as objects. One of the most offensively sexist genres of all time, the harem genre, is not only present in anime, it's mainstream and popular. Women are often poorly written, unfairly sexualized, or live for the sole purpose of gratifying a man. It's frankly disturbing. I love a good anime, but for every miyazaki there are twelve harem shows.

Funnily enough, Miyazaki's last movie features what is probably his most "traditional" depiction of a female character yet. One who is completely dedicated to and supportive of her husband, and who is all pure and kind.

OT: To me it seems like Japan's fictional depiction of women and sex all stems from the real-life shame and repression they have for it. Even the harem genre is all about dude surrounded by willing ladies who he can't sleep with, because... sex is bad?!

Anyway, I stopped taking this video seriously when Quiet was shown as an example of Japan being just so a-okay with sexuality. In stead of her being just, you know, designed to sell to boys and men who wanna see naughty bits.

 

[grassgremlin]

If Japan ever changes gaming will be dead.

This is something without a doubt I will heavily disagree with.

In fact, it should be said gaming in japan has already being changed.

I honestly feel japan has been the most progressive despite what many say, mostly because there are developers with a willingness to buck status quo. In that sense, yes, gaming shouldn't change if it's going that route.

A lot of my favorite games come from japan, mostly because they don't have the mucky film of 'murca macho machismo, white guy with stubble and them big ass guns. I can play girls, feminine male heroes and plucky animal creatures to my heart's content.

 

[The Lunatic]

I really struggle to see the narrative of "Naked virtual women are bad!".

It's essentially just titillation, it's not supposed to be some deep commentary on women or anything like that. It's basically just nearly-softcore erotic material.

I don't think people playing these games actually think women are even remotely like that. And I suppose those that do, likely have a lot more wrong with them than anything that can be caused by playing a video game.

It is basically like saying that porn affects people's opinions of the gender they take interest in.


If a game were to release which featured men in a sexualised nature, I would not feel this "Oppresses" men or threatened in any way. No more than I feel this by a woman going to the store and being a 12" "Massager".

So, yeah, I really can't see the issue here, it's just games catering to a market, and people standing around saying "That's problematic" without ever explaining why.

Though, to come back to the question of Japan, I guess I just assumed it was a cultural thing. I never considered it a problem that needed further study.

 

[grassgremlin]

I wouldn't consider this an in depth look at a complex issue, but I did learn a few things.

I think there's definitely sexism in the industry though. Hideaki Anno (EVA) gave us this little gem, after all:

"You need to understand that Japanese animation is an industry that is, for the most part, male, and as is quite evident, everything is made for their gratification. Further, it is more gratifying for us to draw this sort of [sexy]character, rather than old grandmothers."

This isn't too different from the Western mindset though, specifically in regards to comic books. Many of the most celebrated comic book artist have made a career of drawing pin-ups. And that isn't just because it sells, they themselves just like drawing pretty girls.

Yeah, fuck you Anno. Anime can be beautiful, emotional, and impactful. It can also be some of the filthiest smut out there. Women are often degraded and treated as objects. One of the most offensively sexist genres of all time, the harem genre, is not only present in anime, it's mainstream and popular. Women are often poorly written, unfairly sexualized, or live for the sole purpose of gratifying a man. It's frankly disturbing. I love a good anime, but for every miyazaki there are twelve harem shows.

Funnily enough, Miyazaki's last movie features what is probably his most "traditional" depiction of a female character yet. One who is completely dedicated to and supportive of her husband, and who is all pure and kind.

OT: To me it seems like Japan's fictional depiction of women and sex all stems from the real-life shame and repression they have for it. Even the harem genre is all about dude surrounded by willing ladies who he can't sleep with, because... sex is bad?!

Anyway, I stopped taking this video seriously when Quiet was shown as an example of Japan being just so a-okay with sexuality. In stead of her being just, you know, designed to sell to boys and men who wanna see naughty bits.

You know, I think to rationalize this sense I kind of share the fear. It's a pretty irrational fear if I deconstruct it.
There are several reasons people feel that it's unfair to accuse japan of sexism and to defend it.

Here is the hyperbole doomsday scenarios that people dream up may happen.

1) Japan becomes fed up with America pushing more social justice issues in games and more criticism of sexist tropes it their games. They refuse to sale games in America that have those tropes causing the audiences who love games like Dead or Alive to be alienated.

2) Japan listens and changes games. Team Ninja is run out of business and bayonetta's skin tight hair suit becomes hair armor that when she does attack only reveals her face and nothing else. Hideki Kamiya is driven from twitter by feminists.

3) Link becomes a girl. Any famous japanese made male character gets a case of rule 63.

4) Kojima quits video games or decides to make niche' ios games for japan only.

Now that I word this out, I now see how ridiculous some of this stuff sounds.

 

[Notshauna]

I really struggle to see the narrative of "Naked virtual women are bad!".

It's essentially just titillation, it's not supposed to be some deep commentary on women or anything like that. It's basically just nearly-softcore erotic material.

I don't think people playing these games actually think women are even remotely like that. And I suppose those that do, likely have a lot more wrong with them than anything that can be caused by playing a video game.

It is basically like saying that porn affects people's opinions of the gender they take interest in.


If a game were to release which featured men in a sexualised nature, I would not feel this "Oppresses" men or threatened in any way. No more than I feel this by a woman going to the store and being a 12" "Massager".

So, yeah, I really can't see the issue here, it's just games catering to a market, and people standing around saying "That's problematic" without ever explaining why.

Though, to come back to the question of Japan, I guess I just assumed it was a cultural thing. I never considered it a problem that needed further study.

It's not that super sexualized female characters existing is a bad thing, it's just that it's just so common. The only issue is that these hyper sexualized female characters are rarely given any agency, and that's exactly why I like Bayonetta and groaned at Cia and the reveal of Quiet. Bayonetta is her own woman who makes her own choices and is in control of her own sexuality, Cia isn't modeling for the viewer the designers are choosing to show her as such, Quiet is something....

 

[Casual Shinji]

You know, I think to rationalize this sense I kind of share the fear. It's a pretty irrational fear if I deconstruct it.
There are several reasons people feel that it's unfair to accuse japan of sexism and to defend it.

Here is the hyperbole doomsday scenarios that people dream up may happen.

1) Japan becomes fed up with America pushing more social justice issues in games and more criticism of sexist tropes it their games. They refuse to sale games in America that have those tropes causing the audiences who love games like Dead or Alive to be alienated.

2) Japan listens and changes games. Team Ninja is run out of business and bayonetta's skin tight hair suit becomes hair armor that when she does attack only reveals her face and nothing else. Hideki Kamiya is driven from twitter by feminists.

3) Link becomes a girl. Any famous japanese made male character gets a case of rule 63.

4) Kojima quits video games or decides to make niche' ios games for japan only.

Now that I word this out, I now see how ridiculous some of this stuff sounds.

Yeah, all those fears seem to be grounded in the notion that the presence of sex will one day stop something from selling, which has never happened in the history of ever.

Dispite this surge of criticism against sexualized characters, it still makes up for but a small minority of the overall consuming public. So all the Bayonetta's, Ivy's, and Quiet's are really not going anywhere. At best we'll get a tiny bit of counter characters, but that's it.

 

[Notshauna]

Which makes it all the more amusing to me when I see western people believing Japan is so sexually repressed. We are the ones who are ashamed of busty women, we are the ones who think nude men will turn us gay and attractive underage girls will turn us pedophiliac. And yet we think Japan is the repressed country.

The repression stuff comes from a lot of pre-WWII information and the very low birth rate and general lack of sex in Japan. Japan is odd, from our perspectives, they produced so much same-sex content but tend to either be anti-gay or don't believe in it, they have so much sex in their media yet have a massively decreasing birth rate, are both the highly rigid in terms of gender roles and extremely loose (in different places).

 

[grassgremlin]

These images:

1) come from a movie that in Japan was shown in theatres without age restrictions

2) come from a movie that in Japan was a big-budget title.


Our culture would never do that. If a movie like this was made in our countries, it would be pg-rated and it probablu won't be a big budget title. And you'd probably find a lot of articles disgusted by it.
While Japan finds it entertaining and innocent.

These images distracted me with all the perfect man ass on display.
I'm not sure if I should be offended on turned on.