Poll: Sexy convention costumes - okay to stare?

[Vegosiux]

Men quietly stare at women on the street too, and it's just as unnerving. You are not talking about a costume on a mannequin. You are talking about a costume on a person. And that person can very well have a negative reaction to being stared at.... Someone having on a costume in a convention does not magically make them an object for others consumption. They aren't "booth babes" who were hired to stand around and be looked at. In any case, if someone is that intrigued by a costume they would do better to go and ask the person how they made said costume.

You clearly have very little lived experience with being stared at. Otherwise you would not have brought up the most stereotypical example of cat calling ever. So I must ask. Why can't you just trust the experience of the people who actually have to deal with it? What do you think people are loosing out on if they can't stare at people at conventions? Do you think that manners suddenly don't matter? Or were you never told that it is impolite to stare and point as a child? Do you think that others viewing pleasure is more important than someone's discomfort?

Well...since the poster you're replying to is from Argentina, according to his profile, yes, I think this might be interesting to see how these things go there.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

No it's not, it's never ok to stare at someone...it's just rude.

Although I can very much understand why guys stare at girls in sexy costumes (Hit: It's got to do with the sexy costume/sexy girl in said costume, because on the whole, men like to look at women.

 

[mecegirl]

Well...since the poster you're replying to is from Argentina, according to his profile, yes, I think this might be interesting to see how these things go there.

And that is why I asked a range of questions. If he answers that he wasn't taught as a child that it is impolite to stare and point then that would explain why he doesn't understand people's complaints.

All cultures have social norms. In America it is impolite to stare. And those people that the OP was talking about. Those people who are bringing up discussions about sexism in geek culture after Comic Con(an American comic convention) are American as well. And thus they will judge what is or isn't appropriate based on American social norms.

There are many reasons someone would choose to bypass social norms]. Ignorance of that social norm is one of them, but that will only take a person so far. There are plenty of random things that are polite or impolite in other cultures that I don't get. But just because I don't get it doesn't mean that it suddenly should stop mattering to those people. Unless someone is being harmed because of those customs its not my place to question them.

Another is a temporary lapse in judgement. Back to the staring. We all get caught up in the moment and stare at others, what is important is that as soon as we realize that we were staring that we stop, and if caught apologize.

Once we start letting that lapse in judgement rule over everything else. Once we start going "Well they are dressed in a certain way so its okay for me to stare." Then we are deliberately objectifying someone else. There is no clause in the "its impolite to stare" rule. American kids aren't normally taught "If that person is dressed funny then stare all you want." We all recognize that something out of the ordinary would prompt looks, but understand that that doesn't give us the right to start an in depth inspection just because our curiosity is peeked.

To give an example outside of revealing costumes. Plenty of Black people complain about others staring at, making rude comments about ,or even touching, their hair when it's in its unprocessed state. Most understand that while it is a rare sight, that that doesn't excuse treating others like they are a part of a petting zoo. Others think that Black people are being too sensitive. And why? They were all raised within the same culture. The culture that says that staring is rude. Or that touching someone without consent ranges from rude to a threat. They were all raised in a culture were in the past Black individuals were forced to be on display for others amusement. So what kind of mental gymnastics does a person have to do to think "Oh this amuses me" and ignore cultural norms? What do they really think about the individual that they are being deliberately impolite too?

The concepts of manners,politeness, and etiquette are intertwined up with social rank. The simplest example would come from cultures that practice bowing as a greeting. There are different bows for someone who has a higher social rank than you, another for those who are the same rank as you are, and often none for someone who has a lower rank. In a culture where everyone is supposed to be equal wouldn't ignoring (especially if it is deliberate) social customs indicate that you think that person is lesser? Especially when historically not everyone was considered to be of equal rank and that history is fairly recent (so there is no way of knowing if someone still harbors those beliefs)?

But back to the topic at hand. Staring tends to make people uncomfortable, self aware, and in extreme cases afraid for their safety. Which may have something to do with why staring is considered rude, or maybe the knowledge that staring is rude is why folks have such reactions. There is no way to tell. Either way, it has become an issue of sexism because even when women are fully dressed on the street some men are perfectly okay with staring, despite staring being considered rude. Combined with antiquated ideas surrounding what a woman wears and how much respect she should be given because of it. And the habit of artists putting female characters in revealing costumes even when the context wouldn't call for it because of fan service. Though I find it funny how some will fight tooth and nail for such depictions under the logic that women should be able to wear what they want without judgment. That those characters deserve the same amount of respect as the male characters, or especially the more modestly dressed female characters. But can't handle not judging and respecting real women who wear the same costumes, and feel that women should just expect bad behavior because they were under-dressed.

 

[Riot3000]

My lord this went escalated way too quickly and I can start a farm with straw all around this place.

Typical con rule staring is like a three or five second rule boom bop bip done. Everyone knows that long glares are not right but seriously its like lets just rip our eyes out that will solve everything hyperbole intended.

In speaking of social norms yes staring is rude but my god it is like it is up there with murder. There is some subjectivity to this despite trying to make this objective as possible.

I think you're confusing courtesy and proper social conduct for respect.

On board with vegio here proper conduct and courtesy=/respect.

Wow. This thread is an exercise in strawmen and talking past each other. 90% of the people agree with the sentiment "look, don't stare" but come at it from two different perspectives. Then one perspective denounces the argument that it's not okay to look and the other denounces the argument that it's okay to grope, as if either argument has been made by either "side".

It is the internet your side is just and "normal" and real world and the other side are low lives who fail at functioning.

 

[DrOswald]

To me there seems to be a sort of moral neutral zone here.

Wearing an extravagant costume and going to a public place is putting yourself on display. Intentionally standing out from the crowd is putting yourself on display. This cannot be avoided. If you don't want to be on display don't put yourself on display. Don't wear the extravagant costume.

If you put yourself on display it is unreasonable to expect people not to look at you and examine you. You have intentionally put yourself on display, expect the attention of being on display. Again, if you don't want the attention don't put yourself on display. Also, the more you stand out the more you should expect to be looked at and examined. More extreme display means more looks and more intense examination.

Up to now none of this has had to do with sexiness at all. A person walking down the street in a giant chicken costume is putting themselves on display, for example. If that person were to get all indignant when people stare at his ridiculous giant chicken costume I am going to call BS. You wore a giant chicken costume. If you didn't want the attention of wearing a giant chicken costume don't wear it.

I hold female cosplayers to the same standard I hold everyone else. If you don't want to stand out then don't intentionally stand out.

If you put yourself on sexual display it is unreasonable to expect no sexual attention. The more extreme sexual display you put yourself on the more it is unreasonable for you to expect people to just ignore the fact that you are walking around with a few tiny strips of cloth and a cat tail to cover yourself (in the example of, say, Felicia cosplayers). "All these people are staring at me, just because I chose to attend a public event practically naked" isn't an a complaint that holds a lot of water for me. You chose to stand out from the crowd and now you are uncomfortable about standing out from the crowd. If you don't want people to stare at your giant chicken suit don't wear the giant chicken suit.

It is unreasonable for anyone to demand people change their passive behavior patterns (such as observing and examining their surroundings) to suit that person's convenience. This is not to say the person wearing the costume is doing anything wrong, they just don't automatically get the moral high ground. Theirs is a morally neutral position.

On the other hand...

Staring is rude and can make people uncomfortable. It is my opinion that even though it is unreasonable for a person to demand you change your behavior pattern it is polite to voluntarily change your behavior pattern. This is the right thing to do. The other is not necessarily wrong but there is a better way.

With that in mind, I think a good rule of thumb is that cosplay is art. An amateur art, but art none the less. Treat it as such. Examine the costume and how it looks on the cosplayer (which is an important part of cosplay. An essential part of costume design is the effect it has when on the individual who was intended to wear it.) This does not mean stare at the boobs for a 5 count and then look away. If the person were to call you out for staring at them and all you can say is "your cleavage looks great" then you are not appreciating the art. You are just eye screwing her.

Is she wearing a dress? What cut is the dress? What kind of fabric did she use? Is the costume made from scratch or modified from an existing costume? Can you tell? What details were obviously important to the cosplayer when it was made? Did they put special care into the hat or boots or jewelry? Did they reproduce the character as faithfully as possible or did they take creative liberties?

In any case, If you find yourself wanting to keep on looking after examining the art of the costume then ask for a picture. It will last longer and make fewer people uncomfortable.

TLDR: I don't think it is not ok to stare but it is certainly not classy. Neither party really has the moral high ground here, but there is an opportunity for better than morally neutral on the observers side. Do your best to not make anyone uncomfortable.

 

[ChaosBorne]

You like people to staring at you? No? Then how about you don't fucking stare either.

But at the same time if you decide to run around in the tightest, most revealing clothes don't complain when people gawk, because that getup was put together to fish for attention. And no amount of ignorance on your end will make that fact go away.

Smooth Operator, you are far from the only person to say something to this effect, but I really wish I was reading fewer sentiments in this thread that come out and say, "Look at how she was dressed, she was asking for it." There is no context in which that will not make me uncomfortable, particularly when talking about a group of men who don't seem to understand that sometimes a woman will dress the way she does for herself and not for our viewing pleasure.

i just have to reply to this post,

there isn't a person alive that dresses super revealing just for themselves, i feel more than comfortable saying none of them dress up like that without an audience, they do it purely for the attention it garners and being thought of as sexy by others, the being looked at part is what makes them feel sexy, the fact that they go out in public and don't have total control over every person watching them doesn't make them a victim.

This does not mean it's okay to touch them ofcourse, but they give up the right to complain about people looking, this bullshit has simply got to stop, when you go out of your way to wear something that explicitly draws attention to your body then being looked at, even stared at, is exactly what you should have been expecting, if you aren't comfortable with that then you should have thought of that before wearing that costume, a lot of them go out of their way to oversexualize the costume they are wearing, there is no discernable difference between male and female spartans for example yet somehow every female cosplayer dressing up as the masterchief feels the need to put her tits on display and when the source material is simply an oversexualized character such as Ivy from soul caliber then really you should be asking yourself if the attention that outfit will net you is what you want, they should keep in mind that they are not just going out in public they are going to a convention where a lot people have very poor social skills and hygiëne, if you do not want attention from them then perhaps dressing up as a character starring in many of their wet dreams is not a good idea, just saying.

again i want to stress this applies only to complaints about staring, as for pervs who grope women or try to get upskirt shots i have a far more medieval stace, they can get drawn and quartered as far as i'm concerned.

EDIT. i should also add that it is bad form to stare, it reflects badly on the person doing it, i'm socially awkward and not always completely aware when i am staring, i've done it before and i'm sure i will again, i try not to do it but sometimes i just zone out, i'm sure i'm not the only one it happens to.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's a convention for showing off costumes, shouldn't you be able to look at them as much as you want?

No. Its a convention, and some people choose to attend in costume. Not a convention specifically for showing off costumes. So people can't look as much as they want as if that's the point of the convention.

I'm still voting "OK to watch". Different cultures, different sensibilities.

It can't be that different since women complain about the staring there, just like they do outside of convention spaces.

I suppose those pesky construction workers that love shouting abuse are ubiquitous. Quietly staring at a fantasy costume though? Not that controversial. We're a third world country with third world problems. Gazing isn't one of them.

Men quietly stare at women on the street too, and it's just as unnerving. You are not talking about a costume on a mannequin. You are talking about a costume on a person. And that person can very well have a negative reaction to being stared at.... Someone having on a costume in a convention does not magically make them an object for others consumption. They aren't "booth babes" who were hired to stand around and be looked at. In any case, if someone is that intrigued by a costume they would do better to go and ask the person how they made said costume.

You clearly have very little lived experience with being stared at. Otherwise you would not have brought up the most stereotypical example of cat calling ever. So I must ask. Why can't you just trust the experience of the people who actually have to deal with it? What do you think people are loosing out on if they can't stare at people at conventions? Do you think that manners suddenly don't matter? Or were you never told that it is impolite to stare and point as a child? Do you think that others viewing pleasure is more important than someone's discomfort?

I appreciate what you're saying but that's just how my eyeballs roll.

You'll never convince me that (casually, politely, askwedly, discretely) looking at someone I find attractive is wrong or shameful, costumed or otherwise.

 

[ChaosBorne]

who gets to decide who has the right to respect and who doesn't?

who gets to decide that a woman who wears a certain outfit isn't worthy of respect? what is she then? an object? a piece of meat and fair game for anyone to grope/leer at because she hasn't dressed in the apropriate way as determined by who?

i get to decide who gets my respect, just like you get to decide who gets your respect.
this is something that is different for every person.

if you think it's alright for people you don't respect to be groped then there is something wrong with you, personally if i don't respect somebody i ignore them to the best of my ability and don't waste my time on them.

perhaps you shouldn't try so hard to put words in other peoples mouths, it shows rather poor taste.

 

[Erttheking]

Sexual harassment is, therefore if you do it repetitively, it's illegal.

Staring is unlikely to ever be considered sexual harassment from a legal perspective as it's practically impossible to prove (without other evidence) that the reason for staring was/is sexual in nature.

In general it's just considered plain old harassment.

It's still harassment isn't it? Then let's simply not do it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Actually I think you're on board with the majority of people here, who seem to mostly be saying "Staring is bad, but looking is ok."

 

[Drizzitdude]

Look dude, everyone looks. It is a thing, men look, women look, we all we take our glances if there is something that catches our eye, but the trick is to not be a douche about it. Take a glance, admire if you must. But you should know when your being offensive about it, it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Q3MI5FZ2t5s

Pretty much this. You can look all you want if you never get caught and don't offend anyone.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Actually I think you're on board with the majority of people here, who seem to mostly be saying "Staring is bad, but looking is ok."

Now here's the fun part: Where's the line? One person might be just fine with being ogled; another might see even a cursory glance as offensive and demeaning.

This is one of the reasons I treat people like obstacles and do my best not to look at them at all.

 

[MaximumTheHormone]

Men quietly stare at women on the street too, and it's just as unnerving. You are not talking about a costume on a mannequin. You are talking about a costume on a person. And that person can very well have a negative reaction to being stared at.... Someone having on a costume in a convention does not magically make them an object for others consumption.

Consumption implies some sort of active action rather than a passive gaze.
Going out in the open at all is an implicit consent to being seen which then has to be excplicitly or implicitly revoked.
If someone goes out to a con in cos-play they are giving consent for all those around to see them and its their responsibility to remove that consent by either walking away or outright telling someone if they've changed their mind.

Especially so if someone is dressed up in a way which is bizarre/ unusual and naturally grabs attention. If someone deliberately alters their appearance in a way which makes them stand out its going to draw attention, its a natural human instinct to be drawn to the unusual.
Its the same if someone colours their hair green. The person may not want attention, but the act of dying their hair is going to draw attention from the casual viewer as it is something particularly interesting/ bizzare in their field of view.

Following people and stalking is a whole separate area, but the act of looking at something or someone in your field of view might be socially inept but is in no way morally incorrect in of itself.

They aren't "booth babes" who were hired to stand around and be looked at. In any case, if someone is that intrigued by a costume they would do better to go and ask the person how they made said costume.

just because they aren't paid to be looked at dosen't mean their actions/dress can't give off a very similar impression.
Booth babes aren't explicitly paid to be looked at, they're paid to dress skimpily in a certain space and the rest is implicit.
They aren't strippers being paid to reveal themselves, they're employees of various companies wearing eye-catching clothing which pulls on distinct human impulses in the target audience of these companies.
And particularly dressing as an overly sexualized character pulls on those impulses in the same way. Its inevitably going to pull a similar reaction as booth babes, whether you want it to or not dressing in a sexual manner will get you sexual attention from people.
Its not a justification for assualt in any way, but looking is almost an inevitable reaction to those who dress in a sexualized manner.

Or were you never told that it is impolite to stare and point as a child? Do you think that others viewing pleasure is more important than someone's discomfort?

I don't know about you, but the people i was tought not to stare at were people who were, disfigured and mamed for the most part.
People in wheelchairs or on crutches or with obvious physical maming/ scarring.
People who haven't actively done anything for attention and may not want it.
Cosplayers are a completely different kettle of fish.
They dress up like make believe charecters and distinctly fantastic, bizzare or appealing people. They dress up as something completely out of the ordinary with the intention of being noticed or at least acknowledged for their effort.
Its a massive extra effort, for the end goal of being acknowledged.
If no-one noticed cosplayers or people looked down on them and laughed they wouldn't exist (or at least would be a fraction of what they are today). They dress up in arenas where they will be acknowledged and noticed for their effort and generally don't do so in normal life.

 

[Harrowdown]

This isn't a complicated issue, really. Treat people like people, not like pinups.

 

[Vault101]

Just not respecting someone doesn't mean you're objectifying them. For example, I REALLY don't respect one of our major politicians, think he's a complete and total prick who should keep quiet and serve his time in jail. Am I objectifying him?
.

yes but WHY have you deemed that politician not worthy of your respect? what judgments about his charachter have made? is it because of his policies? his conduct?....[b/]is it the way he wears his suit?[/b]

if you think it's alright for people you don't respect to be groped then there is something wrong with you, personally if i don't respect somebody i ignore them to the best of my ability and don't waste my time on them.

perhaps you shouldn't try so hard to put words in other peoples mouths, it shows rather poor taste.

my point was whos standards are we subscibing too here?

because when somone (particually a woman) says "if women want respect they shoudl dress in apropriate way" (which is essentially what dementedsheep said...I can't make a 100% judgment on his/her gender but there was an implication of "her") what theyre saying is [b/]"if you want respect from group x you should pander to their arbitrairy standards"[/b] which I think...is quite frankly bullshit, we should question thease standards and why theyre there in the first place.

It reminds me of something I read in a book not too long ago

theres a subplot about a woman going through a midlife crisis...its set in the 80's. She feels completly out of place in the world..."womans liberation came to late for her" as she says, but now everything has changed, she did everything "right" she didn't have sex so she wouldn't be called a slut, she did have sex at the apropriate time (post-marrage with husband) so she wouldn't be called fridgid....then one day while in the supermarket some guy almost knocks her over...when she tries to confront him about it he calls her a dried up old "slut" (or something) and tells her to fuck off

and that was her earth shattering realisation, not only was there no "reward" for her good behaviour, not only did those "sluts" go on to lead perfectly happy lives...but a man called her the dreaded S-word anyway, even though she had "done everything right" one day you will get called that. The point being that its never really about how many sexual partners you have or how you dress, its the fact that your a woman, and to somone you'll always be a "slut" and if they don't call you a slut because your dressed in a way that they deem "apropriate" then mabye your something else and mabye they wont respect you whatever you do

 

[infinity_turtles]

yes but WHY have you deemed that politician not worthy of your respect? what judgments about his charachter have made? is it because of his policies? his conduct?....[b/]is it the way he wears his suit?[/b]

Ya know, this brought to mind Putin and all his shirtless pictures. While I won't go as far as to say you can determine respect by what someones wearing, you can make some judgements based on when, where, how, and what they wear. If someone is wearing a flashy get-up that shows more than normal at a public event with a lot of people, I think it's fair to assume they're at minimum okay with extra attention. If someone gets a bunch of shirtless pictures taken of them while hunting animals, fishing, and horseback riding, I think it's fair to assume they want to be seen as strong and manly.

 

[jacob idstrom]

[snip]

The bitterness. It burns.

Y'know, I will never understand this kind of anger.

"Some bitchy college girl slapped me for no good reason. Fuck women and feminism."

"Some girl exercised poor judgement in a drastic situation. (Assuming I take your story on face value) Fuck women and feminism."

"Someone asked me what my mum would think. Fuck women and feminism."

Oh yes totally bitterness, you totally have me down pat. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with this entitlement women seem to think they have a right to, deciding what constitutes staring, how long you are or are not allowed to do it for, the ability to tell you what you can, and can not say as a compliment as it might offend their tender selves.

How about the ability to hit men, without fear of retribution, and if they do get retribution it is generally the male individual charged and arrested because we are oh so more physically threatening.

Or perhaps I was sharing past stories to tell you to get over your ridiculous notions that this is a one sided argument.

You can not objectively decide what is and is not creepy, you can not objectively determine what is or is not the right thing to say.

It is subjective. Completely and entirely, acting as though you can place a value on what is and is not right in terms of how long one can look or what one can say is not capable of an objective answer.

Let's put it this way, a woman has pinched my ass before.

If I did that to a woman what would the outcome be do you suppose?

If you can't see that women have gone too far with the number of things they take offense to, by the number of things they are creating a subjective offense for, and act as though this should be a universally known thing.

Where a woman can say that you are harassing her if you say "Hey, you look hot!" and you can't see that women are literally taking it way too far. Then I pity you.

Edit: I will add this I was once tickled at work by a female coworker, when I responded by tickling back, she filed a complaint against me.

The only reason I was written up for a warning, instead of fired for workplace sexual harassment, was because it was in response to her tickling me, and apparently only because she complained, and I did not, did nothing happen to her, and I felt that complaining would be seen as a sign of retaliation.

It's going too damn far.

Yes you can objectively say what is and is not creepy. If you are making someone feel uncomfortable then you should stop, if not you are being creepy. If someone doesn't want you to stare then don't, they are not asking you to preform seppuku they just ask that you respect their personal space.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Don't be a creep, treat women people as people, and genuinely care about other people, you'll be set.

 

[UberPubert]

and that was her earth shattering realisation, not only was there no "reward" for her good behaviour, not only did those "sluts" go on to lead perfectly happy lives...but a man called her the dreaded S-word anyway, even though she had "done everything right" one day you will get called that. The point being that its never really about how many sexual partners you have or how you dress, its the fact that your a woman, and to somone you'll always be a "slut" and if they don't call you a slut because your dressed in a way that they deem "apropriate" then mabye your something else and mabye they wont respect you whatever you do

That's a rather silly way to come to such a conclusion, and doesn't really make a point for not trying to appeal to general consensus standards.

If the man's a complete stranger, what he thinks or says of her is rather irrelevant to how people can be judged by their behavior. If you have a reputation for doing something, or are known for acting a certain way, you will often be judged by the people who know you based on those traits. People who don't know you will judge based off of what they can see and very likely their own personal experience or learned prejudices based on your appearance. What you do and how you act still matters to the people that know of it, how those who don't know act towards you does not negate your earlier behavior or actions, and typically not how the people who know you perceive them.

Essentially, if the woman's pleased the people she cares about by not having sex before marriage and then having sex after marriage then what she's done has worked. The woman being called a slut by a stranger in a supermarket after they've rudely shoved her does not mean the system has failed her, it just means one person doesn't care enough to learn a persons' entire life story in order to make an insult that hurts her.

Bottom line: Social standards in a society exist as ideals to be aimed for in order to establish an understanding between people, insults by those who don't know better or don't care deserve only to be ignored, whether they occur in a supermarket or on the internet.

 

[Vault101]

Essentially, if the woman's pleased the people she cares about by not having sex before marriage and then having sex after marriage then what she's done has worked.
.

but why souldn't she have sex before marrage? it was an arbitrairy "rule" enforced on her by a society that would punish her for liking sex, she realises in the end it was bullshit

you can make all kinds of judgments on people for what they do and (yes) for what they wear but some judgments are based on shakey ground...the idea that unless a woman dresses/behaves a certain way sexual harrasment/assult is not only inevitable but justified is bullshit

it reminds me of the issue of some gay men bascially saying [i/]"yeah I'm gay but I'm not one of THOSE gays..you know the prissy ones with the lisps...I'm the "good" kind of gay, the hetero conforming kind"[/i] <-theyre appealing to arbitraity (and homophopic) standards instead of saying "hey...who do thease people think they are? telling me how I can/can't express myself or "accepting me" as long as I fit in with them"