I've seen many people against Orson Scott Card and the books he made and the movie coming out because of his stance on gay marriage. My question is should the creator's opinion really matter if the work doesn't represent it?
Poll: Should a creator's opinion matter for a work?
- Thread starter Professor James
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If someone feels they can't read a particular book or whatever because they're against the author personally then I can hardly fault them for feeling that way, I just fail to see why it should be relevant.
Death Of The Author. The author's opinion on his work, and what it means, is only as valid as everyone else's.
NINJAEDIT:...May have misread, actually. In this case, no, it shouldn't matter - his views are irrelevant to whether or not we should get to see some damn fine movies.
NINJAEDIT:...May have misread, actually. In this case, no, it shouldn't matter - his views are irrelevant to whether or not we should get to see some damn fine movies.
I think an author's views should be relevant if they're active in actually carrying them out.
For instance, Jeremy Irons doesn't really support gay marriage in that he made some really stupid comments, but I'll still go see his movies because comments as far as his views are going and he's still a good enough actor to warrant it.
Orson Scott Card, however, is an active board member of the National Organization for Marriage, the same group that was instrumental in passing Prop 8 and opposes both civil unions and gay adoption. You're damn right I'm not going to give my money to someone who's actively smashing down the rights of others, no matter how good his books may be (or the movie from them).
For instance, Jeremy Irons doesn't really support gay marriage in that he made some really stupid comments, but I'll still go see his movies because comments as far as his views are going and he's still a good enough actor to warrant it.
Orson Scott Card, however, is an active board member of the National Organization for Marriage, the same group that was instrumental in passing Prop 8 and opposes both civil unions and gay adoption. You're damn right I'm not going to give my money to someone who's actively smashing down the rights of others, no matter how good his books may be (or the movie from them).
Nah I don't have to agree with EVERYBODY on EVERYTHING to enjoy good literature. I don't give a fuck what Shakespeare or Tolkien thought of gay marriage, I can enjoy their work regardless. It's not like they're out there piqueting funerals.
I think people should judge for themselves.
Personally, if somebody merely has a view that I find objectionable, but doesn't act on it, then I am unlikely to let it affect my decision to purchase something they have worked on.
If they are active in their opinion, such as being part of an organisation that tried to stop gay marriage, women getting equal pay or condoned animal cruelty for example, then I'd not buy their products on the basis that it may help fund something that I oppose.
As for the work itself, and how it should be perceived? Unless the belief I don't agree with is shown in the work, then I see it as completely and utterly irrelevant. Good art is good art, regardless of who made it.
EDIT: May I suggest rewording the title? I found it a little confusing, and I think some others may have as well.
Personally, if somebody merely has a view that I find objectionable, but doesn't act on it, then I am unlikely to let it affect my decision to purchase something they have worked on.
If they are active in their opinion, such as being part of an organisation that tried to stop gay marriage, women getting equal pay or condoned animal cruelty for example, then I'd not buy their products on the basis that it may help fund something that I oppose.
As for the work itself, and how it should be perceived? Unless the belief I don't agree with is shown in the work, then I see it as completely and utterly irrelevant. Good art is good art, regardless of who made it.
EDIT: May I suggest rewording the title? I found it a little confusing, and I think some others may have as well.
In the appreciation of the work, the author should be completely irrelevant. Not just the author's opinions, but everything about the author. If Picasso made a crappy painting, it's still a crappy painting. If Hitler makes a good painting, it's still a good painting.
However, in the consumption of the work, I think the author's opinion can matter. Or maybe not so much their opinion, but their actions. If the money I pay for a product goes directly towards some cause I'm against, that is a good reason for a boycott.
However, in the consumption of the work, I think the author's opinion can matter. Or maybe not so much their opinion, but their actions. If the money I pay for a product goes directly towards some cause I'm against, that is a good reason for a boycott.
Heck no, nothing the creator says should effect how one evaluates and interprets a work. There opinion is as valid as any member of the audiences.
As for the OSC thing... It is more that people don't want to give the man money, since he donates some of the money he gets from his properties to fund organizations many find distasteful.
As for the OSC thing... It is more that people don't want to give the man money, since he donates some of the money he gets from his properties to fund organizations many find distasteful.
Yeah, that's a fair point, but I think it changes depending on how much the views bleed over into the actual work. For example, I can imagine feeling fairly uncomfortable watching a movie that was an allegory about how black people should be treated as second class citizens because God.OhJohnNo said:
A real life example would be the Sword of Truth books. They start off as a thrilling if grim fantasy series set in a well fleshed out world, but after the first half dozen or so books it's all breaking down into the author beating you over the head with "Communism blows! Capitalism fo lyfe!" And honestly, even as someone who supports capitalism, it rather ruins things. Each book will from this point contain at least one three page or more rant implying communism is evil and doomed to fail, to the point you double take and are like "wait, have I read this before?"
And the villains who are an allegory for communism's arguments are mostly silly straw men.
Hell, there was even one of the books where some psycho magical wench kidnaps the protagonist by magically taking his wife hostage, and so takes said protagonist into the heart of the implied communist empire without the knowledge of her boss, the main villain so she can... live with him in a shitty neighborhood as husband and wife because she's batshit crazy. And wants to bring him around into changing his ideology. Except by starting a small business and showing off practical skills everyone in the stereotypically evil, caricature of a city lacks because clearly they're so ignorant, he proves the value of capitalism and instigates a huge revolt.
And all of this stems from a war that was supposed to be people trying to stamp out magic to make shit fairer for everyone. Which soon had a fairly subtle Capitalism/Communism allegory in of itself with magic possibly representing huge privatized financial success, but from there it just got blunter and blunter.
Holy hell, that turned into a rant. My point is yeah, in circumstances like that, someone's opinion really can drive me away from their work. Even if I agree with the basic premise (I support capitalism, but am aware communism can work).
Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about a creator weighing their opinion in on an adaptation of their work.
If their work doesn't represent how they feel about a subject, I don't see how it should impact how much you enjoy said works. If, however, their opinion on something like racism, homosexuality, sexism, etc. colors how they create their work, then I don't blame people for taking issue with it.
If their work doesn't represent how they feel about a subject, I don't see how it should impact how much you enjoy said works. If, however, their opinion on something like racism, homosexuality, sexism, etc. colors how they create their work, then I don't blame people for taking issue with it.
Well it doesn't bare weight on his work(if it's actually separate), but you do need to consider if you want to support someone like that.
The man is a rather odd one, he writes some of the freakiest sci-fi yet is a narrow minded bible basher... seems to be a cat trapped in a dogs body.
The man is a rather odd one, he writes some of the freakiest sci-fi yet is a narrow minded bible basher... seems to be a cat trapped in a dogs body.
Separate the artist from the art. Mel Gibson may be a tool but Brave Heart is an awesome movie.
To be honest when reading, playing, or watching something I don't even think about who created it.
It's cool to see how strong the movement for gay rights is getting tho.
To be honest when reading, playing, or watching something I don't even think about who created it.
It's cool to see how strong the movement for gay rights is getting tho.
I don't know, I mean while the right thing to say is someone's private and professional life should be separate...I know I don't follow that. *shrug*
I mean, it usually doesn't bother me if they have different views but if I watch a documentary or something and they are just like...dicks...yeah, that's gonna be an issue for me...it's not right, but it just lessens my enjoyment if I know they are a complete ass.
I mean, it usually doesn't bother me if they have different views but if I watch a documentary or something and they are just like...dicks...yeah, that's gonna be an issue for me...it's not right, but it just lessens my enjoyment if I know they are a complete ass.
Well, here's the thing.
people say his opinion doesn't matter, and they can enjoy the work. And I get that idea to a point.
But a celebrity is a celebrity. Regular People listen to them as long as they are topical. And as long as they have money and clout, they will force their opinions down other people's throats and/or fund groups to do so. If the celebrities didn't embrace Scientology as a thing, would just googling the word show me that there's four Scientology Churches [https://www.google.com/search?q=Scentiology&aq=f&oq=Scentiology&aqs=chrome.0.57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=EYoJtOjjn_I64YBWZR2OnA&suggest=p&pq=scientology&cp=11&gs_id=l&xhr=t&q=Scientology&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Scientology&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.dmQ&fp=8c5178c670f68b98&biw=1920&bih=965] in the tri state area?
... which I find very sad...
Should I go on to talk about the Vaccine-Autism Connection that Jenny McCarthy won't let go? Or Oprah's 'meat is bad'? Or how her saying 'carbs are bad and bread is carbs' made freaking wraps a thing that is indelible from our Culture and almost sunk all bread?
Anyway, enjoying his or her work is by no means adopting his or her views as your own. However, if you have to pay money to experience his or her own work, you're more than likely going to fund the views you don't agree with or even have a problem with.
people say his opinion doesn't matter, and they can enjoy the work. And I get that idea to a point.
But a celebrity is a celebrity. Regular People listen to them as long as they are topical. And as long as they have money and clout, they will force their opinions down other people's throats and/or fund groups to do so. If the celebrities didn't embrace Scientology as a thing, would just googling the word show me that there's four Scientology Churches [https://www.google.com/search?q=Scentiology&aq=f&oq=Scentiology&aqs=chrome.0.57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=EYoJtOjjn_I64YBWZR2OnA&suggest=p&pq=scientology&cp=11&gs_id=l&xhr=t&q=Scientology&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Scientology&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.dmQ&fp=8c5178c670f68b98&biw=1920&bih=965] in the tri state area?
... which I find very sad...
Should I go on to talk about the Vaccine-Autism Connection that Jenny McCarthy won't let go? Or Oprah's 'meat is bad'? Or how her saying 'carbs are bad and bread is carbs' made freaking wraps a thing that is indelible from our Culture and almost sunk all bread?
Anyway, enjoying his or her work is by no means adopting his or her views as your own. However, if you have to pay money to experience his or her own work, you're more than likely going to fund the views you don't agree with or even have a problem with.
This, pretty much.AngelOfBlueRoses said:
I might enjoy their work, but I'd have an issue with giving them money and helping them get fame and influence.
I don't have that much of an issue with authors/artists who might have been jerks or have some extreme opinions, who are dead or at least not politically active.
H.P. Lovecraft is one of my favourite authors, and some of his opinions were bigoted, and bled to his work, but I can ignore those aspects or take the attitudes as the part of the setting.
Usually no. But OSC is a pretty fringe example. He believes a violent uprising would be neccessary to prevent gay marriage, his words indicate he may resort to killing to prevent that from happening. So 90% of the time yeah ill buy things from assholes. If i think those assholes might be using my money to buy an arsenal to murder random people to prevent gay marriage or make bombs for domestic terrorism because two wangs touch after a ceremony then no. Hes a raving potentially dangerous lunatic and i cont think we should help arm him or give him aid. Especially since directly works in hateful organisations.
I dont actively track my money no so before someone goes "BUT YOU HAVE TO TRACK ALL OF IT TO BE CONSISTANT!". I dont. If im made aware someone is a dangerous lunatic ill avoid spending money on things that earn them money. Im not going to check if everyone is a raving lunatic secretly, but if its made obvious to me ill behave accordingly.
After hes dead ill spend money on whatever. I just want to minimize the risk of seeing some massacre on the news and knowing i helped paid for it.
I dont actively track my money no so before someone goes "BUT YOU HAVE TO TRACK ALL OF IT TO BE CONSISTANT!". I dont. If im made aware someone is a dangerous lunatic ill avoid spending money on things that earn them money. Im not going to check if everyone is a raving lunatic secretly, but if its made obvious to me ill behave accordingly.
After hes dead ill spend money on whatever. I just want to minimize the risk of seeing some massacre on the news and knowing i helped paid for it.
That's more or less my own feelings, if a creator is like Jeremy Irons who's said some less then intelligent things on certain topics, but doesn't go out of his way to support groups or movements that back up that less then intelligent stuff, then while they do matter, it's not really applicable to the work.AngelOfBlueRoses said:
Creators like Orson Scott Card however do go out of their way to support groups and movements (Card in particular has a lot of sway in the National Organization for Marriage), so some of the profits from their books and movies will go to support those groups and movements. Meaning that their opinions matter a lot more then the opinions of other creators.
Yeah, I'm with this guy.Lieju said:
I really like Lovecraft, and I buy his work. I would even argue that his racism makes his work interesting from an analytic standpoint. However, if Lovecraft was still alive and STILL held those views, I would either not touch his works or be extremely uncomfortable when doing so.
I can't support Card, Chick-Fil-A, that Cakeshop Owner in Oregon, WBC, the KKK, etc.
That said, I'm not entirely sure where I stand on Roman Polanski.
An author is the foremost expert *on his own work*. That doesn't necessarily make him an expert on anything else.
Seconded, I actually thought this thread was initially in the vein of the Mass Effect 3 makers having a decision in whether or not they would re-do the ending according to public outcry.Legion said:
OT:
It doesn't really matter to me. I'm fairly sure I've bought books, films and music from authors, makers, and artists that I don't share the same views with, and it doesn't bother me. If I like the work, I'll buy it. I'm for gay marriage laws, yet I enjoyed the hell out of a Chick-Fil-A the last time I was in the US. If that makes me a hypocrite of some sort, then I'm a hypocrite with a well satiated stomach. Heck, my fiancee and I have very differing opinions on today's hot topic issues, yet I still want to marry her, because she's a magnificent woman. I've just never got this ultra partisanal, black and white, "I disagree with them, therefore everything I am is utterly opposed to, and removed from, them and anything about them", stance taking that seems to be so common these days.