Poll: Should we 'call out' trolls?

[Burnouts3s3]

One thing I can agree on is that online harassment is unacceptable. It does not contribute and it doesn't put the gaming community in a positive light. But the question on my mind is how to respond to it, if we should respond at all.

Here's a video from a TedxToronto talk.


Here's what I don't understand. There have been accusations of the gaming community of 'standing by and doing nothing' while trolls harass other players. But, what is meant by doing 'nothing'? If I see violence on the street, I would call the police. If I were to encounter sexist, racist, homophobic slurs on a forum, such as this one, I would report it to the administrator. If I were to play on Xbox Live and the opposing player was being rude, I would file a complaint, ignore said player, and give them a bad review. The question being do these methods work and does it help?

Sometimes, other activists go one step further and post the offensive tweet and attempt to tell other Twitter users to acknowledge this person. Other times, people post Youtube videos about offensive behavior and the user in general. From my perspective, it seems a bit much and giving unwarranted attention to someone who doesn't deserve it.

What do you believe is the right way to approach harassment and trolls?

 

[Zhukov]

In my experience, telling them to shut up can actually be enough.

I used to run with a outfit (ie. clan or guild) in Planetside 2. Used to have a few female members. Every now and again someone would hear them over comms and start giving them shit. Whereupon the troll would suddenly find 10-20 other people telling him he wasn't funny and to go fuck himself.

The trolls invariably shut up within about 15 seconds.

Next time you encounter someone being a prick online, try calling them out for it. You might be surprised at the result. What have you got to lose anyway? It's not like you're intervening in a knife fight.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Yes you call them out but you do not in any circumstance put them on the center stage(i.e. give them attention and time to keep that shit going), because then you made their day, then they know you are affected which makes for a very fun hazing session from there on in.
And that is actually what this lady is doing, not only exaggerating the mindless jabbering but letting these people know they are really making a dent, really making people upset, so guess what they will be doing in the coming weeks...

No what you do is outline their stupidity and exclude them from the group immediately. You want to play with others? Then learn some bloody manners.

 

[endtherapture]

If someone is trolling on Dota 2 I just mute them and then that's done.

 

[Bellvedere]

Trolls just want to create drama, the whole point is that they're not expressing their own opinions, they're expressing whatever opinion is going to offend their target or rile other people up. There's no winning in a shouting match, it's just two dogs barking at each other from either side of a fence. Trolls are not the internet equivalent of hate crimes. Trolls are the internet equivalent of the crazy drunk person ranting outside the supermarket.

Ignore them, report them, blacklist them, kick them from a game, even send a message of support to the target (whilst continuing not to acknowledge trolling). Nothing says how stupid you think they are like completely ignoring any of the crap they say. Not everyone has the critical mass of twitter followers to wage war on the trolls and even if they do, there's no guarantee it's still not going to be entertaining for them (because they don't even believe whatever they're crapping on about it). Shaming isn't really effective when there's no possibility of it affecting aspects of their life outside their internet troll persona.

That being said, after someone has taken the troll bait, ignoring them isn't effective anymore.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I find trolls hilarious...not really more I can say about it. They can vent their spleen all day long at me, all i'll do is kick their ass at whatever I'm playing *shrugs* trolls are for crap players to deal with

 

[Gunner 51]

While I'm a believer of having free expression, I think it is a right that must be tempered with the responsibility of not being a complete doofus about it. But if one is to open their mouth in a public forum or medium, they should not be anonymous.

If someone is harrassing someone else online, it should be dealt with in the same way that it gets dealt with if the same thing is out in public. And most countries do have laws against threatening behavior, harrassment and all that jazz. We all have the right to free expression and to criticise - but when you bully and harrass, you cross into illegalities - and should shoulder the consequences of that.

I acknowledge that such things are completely unenforcable, impossible to enforce and even claims of harrassment will be arbitary at best. Until such a perfect system exists, the current system of mute/block and report is the best we can do.

But another question one might ask is at what point does a disagreeable person become a troll?

Take for example, the death of Maggie Thatcher who was a VERY polarising politician - to say the least. At what point and on what forum can the people who disliked that her show their dislike of that person without sounding like they are trolling?

 

[Zen Bard]

I say keep the trolls occupied until morning. Then when the sun comes up and turns them to stone, just smash them to dust with a hammer.


On topic: Trolls are like any other subspecies of bully and can be dealt with one of two ways: ignore them until they get bored and find someone else to taunt, or confront them directly.

Personally, I prefer the latter since most of them are cowards anyway.

 

[sageoftruth]

It has become difficult. The internet is a big and diverse place and it's not always obvious when someone is trolling. If you call someone out for trolling when they're not actually trolling, it sounds like a cop-out coming from someone who has nothing to argue. With the common complaint that people are calling everyone who disagrees with them "trolls", you want to be certain that the person actually is a troll.

 

[lacktheknack]

The answer, of course is to play along and point and laugh the whole way.

I've seen some amazing tweets come out of "Oh no, whatever shall I do about this annoyance" twitter "fights".

 

[Tono Makt]

It has become difficult. The internet is a big and diverse place and it's not always obvious when someone is trolling. If you call someone out for trolling when they're not actually trolling, it sounds like a cop-out coming from someone who has nothing to argue. With the common complaint that people are calling everyone who disagrees with them "trolls", you want to be certain that the person actually is a troll.

Here's the crux of the problem. What's the difference between a Troll and someone who actually holds abhorrent opinions? "NeoNaziNumber1" saying "I think all Jews are subhuman!" probably isn't a Troll - they probably hold that abhorrent opinion about Jews. "FluffyBubblyHappyWings" coming into a thread about Israeli policies regarding Palestinians saying "I think all Jews are subhuman!" might actually be a troll, and might simply be looking to create chaos in the thread.

Also, the term troll has come to mean "Anyone who disagrees with me." as well. So when I come into the Marvel Cinematic Universe threads and say "I don't think the Avengers is a good movie.", I get called a troll because a huge number of people love that movie. And I don't. Ergo I get called a Troll when I come in and state an opinion contrary to the majority. While that's petty example that has very little impact on the world in general, when you start to get up into political discussions you start to see how this way of dismissing opponents can be dangerous. Look at the discussion around the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare and how little actual discussion there is between the Conservative and Moderate Conservative (I'm Canadian so it's really, really hard to call the Democrats "Liberals" when they're so obviously moderate conservatives) viewpoints. There is discussion within the viewpoints, but the moment someone from the "other side" enters they're isolated and ignored for being part of the "wrong" group. They are assumed to be there simply to Troll - to cause chaos.

So maybe it's time to get rid of the concept of "Trolls" and "Trolling" entirely and actually engage these people who hold viewpoints contrary to our own. It might mean that some people get off on catching responses, but it might mean that we get to have a few more actual discussions with viewpoints that we don't hold. With luck, some of those viewpoints might be changed (no more games with punching women in the face, for example).

 

[Caliostro]

I started watching that and had to stop... Maybe it's my cynicism peaking out again, but she sounded wayyyyyyy too much like someone using an issue, any issue, to push a personal agenda. I just feel uncomfortable with those people, regardless of their agenda...

For example she misinterprets "trolling", willfully or through ignorance. Then again, that's not really surprising. Sadly "Trolling" has become one of those ubiquitous words that have lost all meaning due to oversaturation and misuse. Every bit of behavior people personally disagree with is "trolling" nowadays. You don't like the thing I like? You must be trolling! You have a different opinion I deem wrong? Trolling!

Trolling is, or used to be, people purposely stating something controversial, usually while being perfectly aware that it was incorrect or not believing it in themselves the least, just to rouse an emotional response from other people. It had nothing to do with what you were saying, but with what you were saying it for. What was being said was merely a tool to achieve the goal - that of driving people into blinding rage. For example, someone going "Hitler was right. Discuss.". It didn't mean that the person in question was a Nazi, or a racist, or a socialist, or anything other than an asshole trying to piss other people off. It's not because you're a woman or a feminist, it's because you come across as an easy target, an image you justify when you get angry with them. So yeah, if those people sense that your "soft spot" is sexism, they will use that against you. It's not sexism or misogyny, it's being an asshole.

Thus the "don't feed the trolls" mantra. Because all they want, everything they're looking for, is a rise out of you.

There's a lot more on the subject, such as, for example, being at least utterly ignorant to compare people being insulting or racist to you in a game to physical violence in real life. If people are being annoying in a game I can usually solve it in a second - /block [name]. I WISH I had that in real life. If I could simply press a few buttons and guarantee someone could never interact with me again in real life you can be damn sure several laws we have would quickly become redundant or outdated.

 

[sageoftruth]

It has become difficult. The internet is a big and diverse place and it's not always obvious when someone is trolling. If you call someone out for trolling when they're not actually trolling, it sounds like a cop-out coming from someone who has nothing to argue. With the common complaint that people are calling everyone who disagrees with them "trolls", you want to be certain that the person actually is a troll.

Here's the crux of the problem. What's the difference between a Troll and someone who actually holds abhorrent opinions? "NeoNaziNumber1" saying "I think all Jews are subhuman!" probably isn't a Troll - they probably hold that abhorrent opinion about Jews. "FluffyBubblyHappyWings" coming into a thread about Israeli policies regarding Palestinians saying "I think all Jews are subhuman!" might actually be a troll, and might simply be looking to create chaos in the thread.

Also, the term troll has come to mean "Anyone who disagrees with me." as well. So when I come into the Marvel Cinematic Universe threads and say "I don't think the Avengers is a good movie.", I get called a troll because a huge number of people love that movie. And I don't. Ergo I get called a Troll when I come in and state an opinion contrary to the majority. While that's petty example that has very little impact on the world in general, when you start to get up into political discussions you start to see how this way of dismissing opponents can be dangerous. Look at the discussion around the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare and how little actual discussion there is between the Conservative and Moderate Conservative (I'm Canadian so it's really, really hard to call the Democrats "Liberals" when they're so obviously moderate conservatives) viewpoints. There is discussion within the viewpoints, but the moment someone from the "other side" enters they're isolated and ignored for being part of the "wrong" group. They are assumed to be there simply to Troll - to cause chaos.

So maybe it's time to get rid of the concept of "Trolls" and "Trolling" entirely and actually engage these people who hold viewpoints contrary to our own. It might mean that some people get off on catching responses, but it might mean that we get to have a few more actual discussions with viewpoints that we don't hold. With luck, some of those viewpoints might be changed (no more games with punching women in the face, for example).

Well, genuine trolls do exist right? There are people who go online thinking, "What can I say that will piss people off for my amusement?" One of the reasons I hate trolls is because they make it harder to argue with people who simply disagree with you, since there's always the lingering suspicion that you're just playing their game instead of having a legit discussion. How exactly do we do away with the concept of Trolls?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Ignore, mute, kick, call, whatever. Once you tell them apart you do whatever you feel like it.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm yet to see anyone actually be protected by ignoring a troll. "Don't feed the trolls" is just the sort of specious reasoning employed by people who would rather do nothing.

 

[veloper]

In mother Russia trolls call out YOU.

Don't feed the troll is the only sound advice. Makes the internet a bit more boring, because genuine trolls can be funny, but there's always plenty fools online who just will not ignore the troll anyway. Remember that trolls do not only do it for themselves, but also for their audience.

You can ignore clueless flamers and the kooks along with the trolls, so that should make it easy even for those of you who don't know the difference. That is unless you enjoy the exchange yourself ofcourse. Remember that you can always walk out.

Griefers you simply have to deal with non-verbally (kick/ban), or if you cannot, it's better to just leave the game yourself, because the shrill and impotent cries of angry gamers only add to the fun.

Last but not least, genuine harassment that isn't limited to comedic online posts or spoiling online games, is what you take to the authorities, like your teacher, your parents or maybe even to the police.

Now you know. Internet 101 kids.

 

[Tono Makt]

It has become difficult. The internet is a big and diverse place and it's not always obvious when someone is trolling. If you call someone out for trolling when they're not actually trolling, it sounds like a cop-out coming from someone who has nothing to argue. With the common complaint that people are calling everyone who disagrees with them "trolls", you want to be certain that the person actually is a troll.

Here's the crux of the problem. What's the difference between a Troll and someone who actually holds abhorrent opinions? "NeoNaziNumber1" saying "I think all Jews are subhuman!" probably isn't a Troll - they probably hold that abhorrent opinion about Jews. "FluffyBubblyHappyWings" coming into a thread about Israeli policies regarding Palestinians saying "I think all Jews are subhuman!" might actually be a troll, and might simply be looking to create chaos in the thread.

Also, the term troll has come to mean "Anyone who disagrees with me." as well. So when I come into the Marvel Cinematic Universe threads and say "I don't think the Avengers is a good movie.", I get called a troll because a huge number of people love that movie. And I don't. Ergo I get called a Troll when I come in and state an opinion contrary to the majority. While that's petty example that has very little impact on the world in general, when you start to get up into political discussions you start to see how this way of dismissing opponents can be dangerous. Look at the discussion around the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare and how little actual discussion there is between the Conservative and Moderate Conservative (I'm Canadian so it's really, really hard to call the Democrats "Liberals" when they're so obviously moderate conservatives) viewpoints. There is discussion within the viewpoints, but the moment someone from the "other side" enters they're isolated and ignored for being part of the "wrong" group. They are assumed to be there simply to Troll - to cause chaos.

So maybe it's time to get rid of the concept of "Trolls" and "Trolling" entirely and actually engage these people who hold viewpoints contrary to our own. It might mean that some people get off on catching responses, but it might mean that we get to have a few more actual discussions with viewpoints that we don't hold. With luck, some of those viewpoints might be changed (no more games with punching women in the face, for example).

Well, genuine trolls do exist right? There are people who go online thinking, "What can I say that will piss people off for my amusement?" One of the reasons I hate trolls is because they make it harder to argue with people who simply disagree with you, since there's always the lingering suspicion that you're just playing their game instead of having a legit discussion. How exactly do we do away with the concept of Trolls?

Essentially... treat everyone like they actually hold the beliefs they're displaying. Not saying "Troll - ignore." but saying "Here's why you're wrong." and "Here's what's wrong with your argument and your position." Which will feed the genuine trolls, but it will also at least engage the others in discussion. It might end up that it becomes an impossible discussion - particularly if it's something like Atheist vs Fundamentalist - but it's better than simply dismissing the other side because they disagree with us.

 

[Phasmal]

I'm yet to see anyone actually be protected by ignoring a troll. "Don't feed the trolls" is just the sort of specious reasoning employed by people who would rather do nothing.

Yeah, this, since when did ignoring this stuff make it go away?
They need to be called out by the people they're trying to impress.

I've heard the `trolls will get bored` line a million times, but it's forgetting you're often dealing with a new troll every time. They haven't had time to `get bored`.

Maybe in a few years every troll will have gotten bored of freaking out at the sound of my voice or a team-member refers to me as `she`, but until then, my finger hovers over the block/mute button. (Incidentally I had my first voice troll-free game of DOTA 2 the other day, a surreal but pleasant experience- I even got commended).

Blocking individuals isn't really a solution in the long term.

 

[AuronFtw]

Good trolls you can't actually detect as trolls. They'll seem completely legit in their argument and their points, but they're saying it just to get a response (or they're saying something they don't believe just to get a response). It's kind of the difference between, say, a myg0t troll and a Goon troll. One is an in-your-face obvious troll who only elicits responses from the most ignorant of netizens, the other takes longer to get a feel for the setting before launching an equally trolly, but much more subtle campaign.

It's kind of like Ken M, if you know him (google if not, he's got some quality trolls out there). Believable enough that he can create entire threads of bickering with 1 comment without being obvious enough to have that 1 comment discounted as a troll. As they say, trolling is a art.