Poll: So... How about that Napolean guy?

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Thedayrecker

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So while browsing through games on Steam, I came across Napolean Total War, and that got me thinking. Was Napolean a good man?
He certainly was an excellent general (most of the time), and he seems to be idolized in modern society, but when you think about it, he took aboslute power after the French had already decided to cast of the whole king thing. Not to mention he pretty much started conquering Europe for the Hell of it.

So esteemed readers, do you consider Napolean to be a good man?
 

Pimppeter2

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He was racist edit:and antisemtic. He had had hatian's wear muzzles so they wouldn't eat the sugar cane

Napoleon is like Hitler to the Spanish.

Napoleon, despite his 'ideas' on meritocracy, placed incompetent and undeserving relatives on the 'vacant' thrones of europe. Create an new aristocracy of barons. Napoleon, supreme defender of the republic should declared himself emporer, of an empire with a doubtful and precarious future?


That being said, in Historical Context he was a good leader (or conquerer) and a decent person. He was hardly more murderous than the other rulers of the time. Whatever his faults he was a truly Great Man. I find it fascinating that an insignifigant Corsican should climb so high as to become master of Europe, and change history forever.
 

manythings

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So my understanding of it is he was pretty intolerant of everyone who didn't wave flags and shout "Napoleon is awesome". This coupled with fairly paranoid views of threats to his power led to a fair amount of unpleasantness.
 

enzilewulf

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Waterloo. 'nuff said. No I think he was a brilliant military leader, but he was sorta a wreck...Very racist.. Guess for the time he was good but he obviously did something wrong to get casted away to that Island.
 

Aur0ra145

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After reading Clausewitz "On War" I see him in a whole new light as a military general.
 

Rubashov

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Napoleon was to the French Revolution what Stalin was to the Russian Revolution. (Lenin's analogue being Robespierre.)
 

Agema

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Napoleon is a bit like Oliver Cromwell, and probably many other leaders I can't think of just at the moment whilst drunk.

I think a French historian said of him "Napoleon gave France nothing but victories". Basically, a brilliant individual who obtained very impressive achievements, but ultimately a blip in history that did little or no long-term benefit to his country or anything much else. He wasn't evil by any means, but I'm not sure I'd ever call him a good man either.
 

UberLemonBoy

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i found out he was actually taller then average french man
and was a big 8=========> (dick)
 

Pimppeter2

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Agema said:
Napoleon is a bit like Oliver Cromwell, and probably many other leaders I can't think of just at the moment whilst drunk.

I think a French historian said of him "Napoleon gave France nothing but victories". Basically, a brilliant individual who obtained very impressive achievements, but ultimately a blip in history that did little or no long-term benefit to his country or anything much else. He wasn't evil by any means, but I'm not sure I'd ever call him a good man either.
I wouldn't call him a blip in history, considering that the Napoleonic era changed the Future of Europ forever.

Dismanetling the Holy Roman Empire and untiing the Germans made it possible for Bismark to untie Germany later. And we all know where that rode heads.

Not to mention, he proved to Europe that it can't be united under 1 banner without Nationalistic competition.
 

HTID Raver

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im not sure if he was racist or whatever like everyone else is saying , but he was a damn good leader so thats a yes for me
 

SonicKoala

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He was an extremely talented general, and a very charismatic leader. His legal code wound up being very influential, and his system of meritocracy was quite revolutionary for his time. So, maybe he wasn't the nicest person in the world, but his accomplishments are admirable, and he is certainly a very interesting historical figure.

I also don't see why people are criticising him for being a racist - racial prejudice was commonplace in the 19th century. Everybody was a racist, not just Napoleon (that's how it's spelled, btw, OP).
 

HTID Raver

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Thedayrecker said:
So while browsing through games on Steam, I came across Napolean Total War, and that got me thinking. Was Napolean a good man?
He certainly was an excellent general (most of the time), and he seems to be idolized in modern society, but when you think about it, he took aboslute power after the French had already decided to cast of the whole king thing. Not to mention he pretty much started conquering Europe for the Hell of it.

So esteemed readers, do you consider Napolean to be a good man?

thats funny because i just got done playing that same game lol
 

HerrBobo

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Thedayrecker said:
So esteemed readers, do you consider Napoleon to be a good man?
Good by what standard?

If you mean by our standards, then no. He was a warmonger, elitist, racist, imperialistic, narcissistic and a megalomaniac. Who was directly, or indirectly responsible for 1,000s of deaths.

However, as a historian, I believe it is wrong to judge a man who lived some 200 years ago by the standards of today. When one look past, the mountains, of propaganda around Napoleon you find that, as man he was really no better or worse that any of his peers.

As a general he was good, not great. He did well in Italy but he was against very poor, and very poorly led Austrian armies. The Austrian commanders at the time were, at best 4th rate, and often divided their forces. I believe even as early as his Egyptian conquest of 1799 the cracks in his command style were being to show; soldiers living off the land, overstretching his armies. He got away with it there, but it was a local provincial war.

From what I have read about Napoleon, and I have not read a whole lot, part of his command success was him his drive. His vim and vigour. He knew every soldiers name, he led from the front, he seemed to be everywhere at once. His personal example inspired his troops.

However, on later campaigns, such as Russia, Napoleon was 43, over middle age (for the time). It seems much of this vim, much of this personal example was gone from the way he conducted himself. Age was catching up with him. Of course, far more important then this was he allowed his army to be sucked into a Russian winter. The biggest flaw Napoleon had as a commander was that he was unable, or unwilling to supply his army properly. This had worked in western Europe, but the Russians either burned, or took with them all the food they could. Napoleon assured his men that Moscow would have both food and shelter, but when they got there it was abandoned and had been raised to the ground.

Thus, his invasion stalled, and the rest is history.
 

Pimppeter2

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Hardcore_gamer said:
Pimppeter2 said:
Napoleon is like Hitler to the Spanish.
Comparing Napoleon to Hitler is stupid and ignorant. Besides the obvious fact that Napoleon did not have a taste of large scare genocide there is also the fact that he was pushed into the war by the other European powers and did not just decided to simply attempt to conquer the world one day.
I'm not comparing him to Hitler. I said that he is like a Hitler to the Spanish. In French club at my school, we wanted to put a picture of David's Napoleon crossing the Alps on our t-shirts, and the Spanish teachers (that are from spain) filed a complaint to our teacher that it was extremely incencitive to the Spanish, since Napoleon had invaded and slaughtered the country.


Wiki said:
Portugal did not comply with the Continental System, so in 1807 Napoleon invaded with the support of Spain. Under the pretext of a reinforcement of the Franco-Spanish army occupying Portugal, Napoleon invaded Spain as well, replaced Charles IV with his brother Joseph and placed his brother-in-law Joachim Murat in Joseph's stead at Naples. This led to resistance from the Spanish army and civilians in the Dos de Mayo Uprising.[85] Following a French retreat from much of the country, Napoleon took command and defeated the Spanish Army. He retook Madrid, then outmanoeuvred a British army sent to support the Spanish and drove it to the coast.[86] Before the Spanish population had been fully subdued, Austria again threatened war, and Napoleon returned to France.[87]
He killed over 100,000 Caribbean slaves. Gassed rebellious blacks. In simple terms, Napoleon ordered the killing of as many blacks as possible in Haiti and Guadeloupe to be replaced by new, docile slaves from Africa

Either way, he was not "simply pushed into war" by the other powerd of that time. And while I'm not comparing him or making him equal to Hitler, he is not exactly considered a good person.

Napoleon is not comparable to Hitler becuase what he did was not uncommon at the time. While what Hitler did was not. Historically, Napoleon did nothing more wrong than what any other leader did at the time. But that doesn't mean that what he did isn't what we now consider "morally wrong."

EDIT: Hardocregamer, this is the fourth or so time that we've had a debate on something only for you to never return after I make my points. Frankly, its a bit perplexing as to why you quote me in the first place without any intention to discuss the thing you're quoting me to discuss.
 

2fish

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Furburt said:
HG131 said:
That wasn't my intention. Ok, fine, you have him lying in a puddle of his own blood. Would you insult him then?
Yes.

Then again, I'd probably also question how exactly I'm meeting the 250 year old dead French general, and for that matter, why I'm speaking English to him.
Drugs can do scary things to you.

I would not call him good or bad until I saw the world the way he did. He did bring about changes to our world, without seeing his world firsthand my judgment will be invalid. In the list of historical assholes I am not sure he ranks too high though. After all if we count genocide as a capital offence then he has a few people above him on the list.
 

HerrBobo

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Pimppeter2 said:
Napoleon is not comparable to Hitler becuase what he did was not uncommon at the time. While what Hitler did was not. Historically, Napoleon did nothing more wrong than what any other leader did at the time. But that doesn't mean that what he did isn't what we now consider "morally wrong."
Agreed. Like I said in my above post it is wrong to judge a man who lived 200 years ago by our standards. As a man he was pretty normal, as a general he was good, as a propaganda spinner he was amazing.
 

ww666

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Comes a time in every mans life that he stops asking questions that are based on point of view.

Maybe all the slaughter brought something good to the world or maybe brought something horrible.

Who knows?
 

ProfessorLayton

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I saw that mini-series about him (the one with John Malkovich) and I really didn't see why he was portrayed as such an evil man. The only bad things I saw about him were that he cheated on his wife... a lot... in fact, the people he was friends with seemed more evil than he was, with all that betrayal and such...

But maybe it only showed the good parts. He was an excellent leader, but then again, Hitler was a good public speaker...
 

Thedayrecker

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HerrBobo said:
Thedayrecker said:
So esteemed readers, do you consider Napoleon to be a good man?
Good by what standard?

If you mean by our standards, then no. He was a warmonger, elitist, racist, imperialistic, narcissistic and a megalomaniac. Who was directly, or indirectly responsible for 1,000s of deaths.

However, as a historian, I believe it is wrong to judge a man who lived some 200 years ago by the standards of today. When one look past, the mountains, of propaganda around Napoleon you find that, as man he was really no better or worse that any of his peers.

As a general he was good, not great. He did well in Italy but he was against very poor, and very poorly led Austrian armies. The Austrian commanders at the time were, at best 4th rate, and often divided their forces. I believe even as early as his Egyptian conquest of 1799 the cracks in his command style were being to show; soldiers living off the land, overstretching his armies. He got away with it there, but it was a local provincial war.

From what I have read about Napoleon, and I have not read a whole lot, part of his command success was him his drive. His vim and vigour. He knew every soldiers name, he led from the front, he seemed to be everywhere at once. His personal example inspired his troops.

However, on later campaigns, such as Russia, Napoleon was 43, over middle age (for the time). It seems much of this vim, much of this personal example was gone from the way he conducted himself. Age was catching up with him. Of course, far more important then this was he allowed his army to be sucked into a Russian winter. The biggest flaw Napoleon had as a commander was that he was unable, or unwilling to supply his army properly. This had worked in western Europe, but the Russians either burned, or took with them all the food they could. Napoleon assured his men that Moscow would have both food and shelter, but when they got there it was abandoned and had been raised to the ground.

Thus, his invasion stalled, and the rest is history.
I meant by whichever standard you would consider appropriate. As you said by today's standards he is an immoral jack-ass, but as others (including yourself) have pointed out, he wasn't considered to be different from other generals and/or heads-of-state at that time.

However, something you wrote perplexes me:

I believe it is wrong to judge a man who lived some 200 years ago by the standards of today
Surely in 200 years, nobody will say Hitler was a good man, but will they still consider him to be bad? It's interesting to think about, but that is the topic of another thread.

Maybe in the future? Or maybe able to be found through the magic of the Search bar?