Poll: ST Federation or 40k Imperium - who would win in a war?

[direkiller]

So, is the warp bubble deflecting the physical debris then? Considering Starfleet fights at FTL speeds, I'll go back to "what the hell are macro cannons going to do?"

Does Starfleet fight at FTL speeds? I never got that impression from the show.

They have fired torpedoes several times at warp speed(both directions). But no phrases.

Also the way warp drives work nothing is "moving" at ftl, It's in a bubble of space. So nothing that hits it is moving any faster then normal, & On every show we see the ship get smacked and tossed around by large objects. Let alone a bullet 1/3 the size of the enterprise, moving at relativistic velocity.

 

[direkiller]

Imperium goes for size and might, and for my knowledge (not much about the Imperial Navy, I admit) don't use shields.

They do have shields, they are called void shields. Basically they take incoming kinetic and thermal energy and toss it into the warp.
After they take enough they shutdown to recharge(rather quickly), Larger IOM ships, walkers and Fortresses have a few layers that need to be taken down before the first one recharges.

Trek has much faster sublight acceleration, and movement.

IOM has much faster FTL but it takes a while to start and can't be used inside a most of the solar system without a large risk.

 

[BoogieManFL]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

With no other galactic powers to upset with atrocities or treaties to honor, the Federation could begin equipping cloaking devices, and probably even some phasing cloaks, genesis torpedoes, time travel, etc.

The need to survive against such a large enemy 1 on 1 The Federation would be much more likely to take off the moral and ethical gloves. At the very least loosen them considerably. This reduces one of the larger disadvantages the UFoP would have. There would be no where to go, no one to run to. Kill or be killed.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

With no other galactic powers to upset with atrocities or treaties to honor, the Federation could begin equipping cloaking devices, and probably even some phasing cloaks, genesis torpedoes, time travel, etc.

By the same token, would you take chaos away from 40k? That'd certainly change things.

The need to survive against such a large enemy 1 on 1 The Federation would be much more likely to take off the moral and ethical gloves. At the very least loosen them considerably. This reduces one of the larger disadvantages the UFoP would have. There would be no where to go, no one to run to. Kill or be killed.

That'd be a logical approach, but one the Federation never takes when in that situation.

 

[BoogieManFL]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

With no other galactic powers to upset with atrocities or treaties to honor, the Federation could begin equipping cloaking devices, and probably even some phasing cloaks, genesis torpedoes, time travel, etc.

By the same token, would you take chaos away from 40k? That'd certainly change things.

The need to survive against such a large enemy 1 on 1 The Federation would be much more likely to take off the moral and ethical gloves. At the very least loosen them considerably. This reduces one of the larger disadvantages the UFoP would have. There would be no where to go, no one to run to. Kill or be killed.

That'd be a logical approach, but one the Federation never takes when in that situation.

They've never had the entire Federation get placed in a pocket universe in a fight to the death.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

With no other galactic powers to upset with atrocities or treaties to honor, the Federation could begin equipping cloaking devices, and probably even some phasing cloaks, genesis torpedoes, time travel, etc.

The need to survive against such a large enemy 1 on 1 The Federation would be much more likely to take off the moral and ethical gloves. At the very least loosen them considerably. This reduces one of the larger disadvantages the UFoP would have. There would be no where to go, no one to run to. Kill or be killed.

I don't doubt that they would - and it would present an interesting he-who-fights-monsters scenario, as the relentless, irrational hostility of the 40k universe confounds and eventually overwhelms the Federation's dedication to pacifism.

They touch on that interestingly in Into Darkness, which is an otherwise stupid film. The plot revolves around a hawkish Starfleet admiral secretly constructing Starfleet's first "true" warship, as in a ship designed solely for war. And it's one scary ************ - it outruns the Enterprise at warp speed easily, disables it in one hit, and then it turns out the entire ship can be crewed by one man if necessary.

So if Starfleet got off their asses and started mass-producing these things to fight the Imperium, they'd actually be able to fight them to a standstill. Of course, that admiral was the villain of the movie, because the Federation is ideologically ill-equipped for total war. They would waste time negotiating, like the Interex did. And if they demolish an Imperial fleet and then demilitarise over the ensuing decades, as has happened numerous times in between Star Trek shows, they'd have to start the entire process again when the Imperium's next wave comes in about a hundred years.

I think if the Federation did just pop up next to the Imperium one day, their chances of survival would depend a lot on how cynical they're willing to get, and how quickly they do it.

That'd be a logical approach, but one the Federation never takes when in that situation.

They've never had the entire Federation get placed in a pocket universe in a fight to the death.

Oh, I think he's referring more generally to the many times the Federation has been threatened with near-total extinction but refused to compromise its morals regardless. Whenever the Borg show up, for example.

 

[JamesStone]

Imperium goes for size and might, and for my knowledge (not much about the Imperial Navy, I admit) don't use shields.

They do have shields, they are called void shields. Basically they take incoming kinetic and thermal energy and toss it into the warp.
After they take enough they shutdown to recharge(rather quickly), Larger IOM ships, walkers and Fortresses have a few layers that need to be taken down before the first one recharges.

Trek has much faster sublight acceleration, and movement.

IOM has much faster FTL but it takes a while to start and can't be used inside a most of the solar system without a large risk.

Didn't know that. Still haven't gotten around to buying Battleship Gothic Armada, too much work to be done, plus the tabletop (which I don't actually play mind you, but I do follow the fluff closely and play the videogames) seldomly goes into much detail about the Navy.

+4 points to my argument then.

However, don't forget the Federation have one thing the Imperium doesn't: reliable FTL travel. True, statistically speaking the Imperial Navy probably has enough manpower to ignore the, what, 10% of their ships that get lost in the Warp, corrupted by daemons or ping-ponged through time, but it's still a point to be made.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

I'm curious how this works, because if its a pocket dimension to give them both equal footing, how do the Federation have advanced research facilities already established? Or does the Imperium get their mechanicus facilities too?
Like its not like the Enterprise D has the capacity to just give itself cloaking technology. You need starbases, staff, resources, years of work. The full infrastructure of the Federation, something I assumed they didn't have because they're in a pocket dimension to keep it fair.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

I'm curious how this works, because if its a pocket dimension to give them both equal footing, how do the Federation have advanced research facilities already established? Or does the Imperium get their mechanicus facilities too?
Like its not like the Enterprise D has the capacity to just give itself cloaking technology. You need starbases, staff, resources, years of work. The full infrastructure of the Federation, something I assumed they didn't have because they're in a pocket dimension to keep it fair.

Look - don't think about it too hard. There is no way the physics of slamming the Star Trek universe on top of the Warhammer universe like a pancake stack is ever going to make any sort of sense. It never does in any kind of crossover matchup. Just assume that, you know, they're next door for some reason.

Anyway, based off the level of industry in the show and the movies, I don't think it'd take Starfleet too long to mobilise. They build that super-ship from Into Darkness in less than a year, and at the end of Beyond they finish the half-built Enterprise-A in what seems like a couple of months. (That's just going off the reboot films; I haven't actually watched an episode of the TV shows in ages.)

 

[direkiller]

Imperium goes for size and might, and for my knowledge (not much about the Imperial Navy, I admit) don't use shields.

They do have shields, they are called void shields. Basically they take incoming kinetic and thermal energy and toss it into the warp.
After they take enough they shutdown to recharge(rather quickly), Larger IOM ships, walkers and Fortresses have a few layers that need to be taken down before the first one recharges.

Trek has much faster sublight acceleration, and movement.

IOM has much faster FTL but it takes a while to start and can't be used inside a most of the solar system without a large risk.

Didn't know that. Still haven't gotten around to buying Battleship Gothic Armada, too much work to be done, plus the tabletop (which I don't actually play mind you, but I do follow the fluff closely and play the videogames) seldomly goes into much detail about the Navy.

+4 points to my argument then.

However, don't forget the Federation have one thing the Imperium doesn't: reliable FTL travel. True, statistically speaking the Imperial Navy probably has enough manpower to ignore the, what, 10% of their ships that get lost in the Warp, corrupted by daemons or ping-ponged through time, but it's still a point to be made.

I don't think it matters when it comes to the discepencys here.

IOM is 90,000 LY across and has more then 1,000,000 planets
Federation is 8,000 LY across with less then 200 planets in 2373

Speed is also a major factor here.
It would take the federation about 120years to cross IOM space, while it takes the IOM less then 2 months to cross Federation space.

Edit: also there ships are not in normal space when going FTL so trek has no idea where they will pop out.

This is basically an ant fighting a blue whale.

 

[JamesStone]

Imperium goes for size and might, and for my knowledge (not much about the Imperial Navy, I admit) don't use shields.

They do have shields, they are called void shields. Basically they take incoming kinetic and thermal energy and toss it into the warp.
After they take enough they shutdown to recharge(rather quickly), Larger IOM ships, walkers and Fortresses have a few layers that need to be taken down before the first one recharges.

Trek has much faster sublight acceleration, and movement.

IOM has much faster FTL but it takes a while to start and can't be used inside a most of the solar system without a large risk.

Didn't know that. Still haven't gotten around to buying Battleship Gothic Armada, too much work to be done, plus the tabletop (which I don't actually play mind you, but I do follow the fluff closely and play the videogames) seldomly goes into much detail about the Navy.

+4 points to my argument then.

However, don't forget the Federation have one thing the Imperium doesn't: reliable FTL travel. True, statistically speaking the Imperial Navy probably has enough manpower to ignore the, what, 10% of their ships that get lost in the Warp, corrupted by daemons or ping-ponged through time, but it's still a point to be made.

I don't think it matters when it comes to the discepencys here.

IOM is 90,000 LY across and has more then 1,000,000 planets
Federation is 8,000 LY across with less then 200 planets in 2373

Speed is also a major factor here.
It would take the federation about 120years to cross IOM space, while it takes the IOM less then 2 months to cross Federation space.

Edit: also there ships are not in normal space when going FTL so trek has no idea where they will pop out.

This is basically an ant fighting a blue whale.

Like I said, I too believe the Imperium could destroy the Federation as an afterthought even in their own universe unless the Feds launched one critical secret strike against the Imperium (like throwing literally all their military might at Earth to kill the Emperor so the Warp becomes unuseable). Just saying that the Federation has predictability. The Warp is a dangerous place.

 

[BoogieManFL]

Imperium goes for size and might, and for my knowledge (not much about the Imperial Navy, I admit) don't use shields.

They do have shields, they are called void shields. Basically they take incoming kinetic and thermal energy and toss it into the warp.
After they take enough they shutdown to recharge(rather quickly), Larger IOM ships, walkers and Fortresses have a few layers that need to be taken down before the first one recharges.

Trek has much faster sublight acceleration, and movement.

IOM has much faster FTL but it takes a while to start and can't be used inside a most of the solar system without a large risk.

Didn't know that. Still haven't gotten around to buying Battleship Gothic Armada, too much work to be done, plus the tabletop (which I don't actually play mind you, but I do follow the fluff closely and play the videogames) seldomly goes into much detail about the Navy.

+4 points to my argument then.

However, don't forget the Federation have one thing the Imperium doesn't: reliable FTL travel. True, statistically speaking the Imperial Navy probably has enough manpower to ignore the, what, 10% of their ships that get lost in the Warp, corrupted by daemons or ping-ponged through time, but it's still a point to be made.

I don't think it matters when it comes to the discepencys here.

IOM is 90,000 LY across and has more then 1,000,000 planets
Federation is 8,000 LY across with less then 200 planets in 2373

Speed is also a major factor here.
It would take the federation about 120years to cross IOM space, while it takes the IOM less then 2 months to cross Federation space.

Edit: also there ships are not in normal space when going FTL so trek has no idea where they will pop out.

This is basically an ant fighting a blue whale.

Only if you grossly over simplify. The subject is far more complex than to just handwave it away with such little data.

But even after chopping out 99% of all the other factors like in this post, sure one side has faster FTL travel, but the other has much better sub light combat speed and maneuverability. And it's not like every planet is a target, or a major boon to the war effort. But all that territory does require massive supply chains and protection spread among it.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Another thing to consider is that for this matchup to be fair, they'd have to appear in their own pocket universe with each other.

I'm curious how this works, because if its a pocket dimension to give them both equal footing, how do the Federation have advanced research facilities already established? Or does the Imperium get their mechanicus facilities too?
Like its not like the Enterprise D has the capacity to just give itself cloaking technology. You need starbases, staff, resources, years of work. The full infrastructure of the Federation, something I assumed they didn't have because they're in a pocket dimension to keep it fair.

Look - don't think about it too hard. There is no way the physics of slamming the Star Trek universe on top of the Warhammer universe like a pancake stack is ever going to make any sort of sense. It never does in any kind of crossover matchup. Just assume that, you know, they're next door for some reason.

Anyway, based off the level of industry in the show and the movies, I don't think it'd take Starfleet too long to mobilise. They build that super-ship from Into Darkness in less than a year, and at the end of Beyond they finish the half-built Enterprise-A in what seems like a couple of months. (That's just going off the reboot films; I haven't actually watched an episode of the TV shows in ages.)

But...but overthinking nerd culture and getting into petty arguments on the validity of head canon vs expanded non-canon canon is like my thing!
How else are we going to know if the Starship Troopers Federation could beat the Star Trek Federation?! I mean the ST Feds can travel across the galaxy in days and has an unlimited supply of hunky ground troops to throw at any problem.

 

[direkiller]

Imperium goes for size and might, and for my knowledge (not much about the Imperial Navy, I admit) don't use shields.

They do have shields, they are called void shields. Basically they take incoming kinetic and thermal energy and toss it into the warp.
After they take enough they shutdown to recharge(rather quickly), Larger IOM ships, walkers and Fortresses have a few layers that need to be taken down before the first one recharges.

Trek has much faster sublight acceleration, and movement.

IOM has much faster FTL but it takes a while to start and can't be used inside a most of the solar system without a large risk.

Didn't know that. Still haven't gotten around to buying Battleship Gothic Armada, too much work to be done, plus the tabletop (which I don't actually play mind you, but I do follow the fluff closely and play the videogames) seldomly goes into much detail about the Navy.

+4 points to my argument then.

However, don't forget the Federation have one thing the Imperium doesn't: reliable FTL travel. True, statistically speaking the Imperial Navy probably has enough manpower to ignore the, what, 10% of their ships that get lost in the Warp, corrupted by daemons or ping-ponged through time, but it's still a point to be made.

I don't think it matters when it comes to the discepencys here.

IOM is 90,000 LY across and has more then 1,000,000 planets
Federation is 8,000 LY across with less then 200 planets in 2373

Speed is also a major factor here.
It would take the federation about 120years to cross IOM space, while it takes the IOM less then 2 months to cross Federation space.

Edit: also there ships are not in normal space when going FTL so trek has no idea where they will pop out.

This is basically an ant fighting a blue whale.

Only if you grossly over simplify. The subject is far more complex than to just handwave it away with such little data.

But even after chopping out 99% of all the other factors like in this post, sure one side has faster FTL travel, but the other has much better sub light combat speed and maneuverability. And it's not like every planet is a target, or a major boon to the war effort. But all that territory does require massive supply chains and protection spread among it.

last I check the IOM has more then 200 planet killing weapons kicking around.

How in the holy hell can trek do anything close to damage before holy hell-fire comes raining down?

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

How else are we going to know if the Starship Troopers Federation could beat the Star Trek Federation?! I mean the ST Feds can travel across the galaxy in days and has an unlimited supply of hunky ground troops to throw at any problem.

Film or book?

I'm assuming film, because "hunky ground troops," in which case I'm pretty dang sure the Trekkies would wipe the Trooper's butts simply through superior organisation. The film version of the Mobile Infantry were a joke.

But if it's book...well, then you're dealing with flying mini-mecha armed with nuclear munitions who can only be adequately suppressed through carpet bombing the general area in which they were seen. I think the book's Mobile Infantry could even give the Imperium a run for their money, to be honest.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

My read of the book is that they were in basically Starcraft Marine armor, but a little smaller and with jump packs. We they just straight up mobile suits? Like the Leo or Aeries from Gundam Wing?


Also the movie Mobile Infantry were amazing! Nothing like charging headlong into the jaws of giant space spiders with nothing but a t-shirt, toned abs and a shitty over-under rifle/shotgun with barely enough ammo to kill 3 bugs.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

last I check the IOM has more then 200 planet killing weapons kicking around.

How in the holy hell can trek do anything close to damage before holy hell-fire comes raining down?

For the same reason the Imperium is willing to spend millions of lives and centuries of rebuilding to defend the planets it currently has: if they destroyed habitable worlds at the smallest sign of resistance, it'd run out of planets.

Even when the IoM wins a conflict, it comes out of it weaker. That's been true throughout its lifespan. On considering the toll in men and materials, not to mention the inevitable rebellions, defections, and civil wars that are going to break out when they come in contact with a Federation that's human controlled, hugely technologically advanced, doesn't run its entire economy based around human rights abuses, and will even let defectors still worship the Emperor, the Imperium, even if they win, are going to pay a hugely disproportionate amount.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

On considering the toll in men

Gotta stop ya right there Alt. If there is one thing the Imperium doesn't really give one iota of a crap about, it's the toll on men their conflicts have. They have solar powered laser guns, and yet Manpower is STILL their number one most common resource. As was said in Dawn of War, "When in doubt, throw more men at it."

Sure, they wont COMPLETELY destroy the planets that start rebelling, but they WILL deal with the populace in whatever manner they see fit. Generally involving a whole mess of these guys.


Not to mention, if the existence of an alternative of a hugely technologically advanced civilization that doesn't run its entire economy based around human rights abuses and will even let defectors still worship the Emperor was enough to get people turning against the Imperium the Tau would currently be the number one superpower in the galaxy. As it stands, the minute any rebelling worlds learn the Federation would be expecting them to play nice with the Xenos out there, the Federation would quickly lose those worlds support.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

On considering the toll in men

Gotta stop ya right there Alt. If there is one thing the Imperium doesn't really give one iota of a crap about, it's the toll on men their conflicts have. They have solar powered laser guns, and yet Manpower is STILL their number one most common resource. As was said in Dawn of War, "When in doubt, throw more men at it."

Sorry Metalix, the Imperium is a regime in decline, always has been. They're going to run out of dudes eventually, they're just huge enough it's going to take a bit.

Not to mention, if the existence of an alternative of a hugely technologically advanced civilization that doesn't run its entire economy based around human rights abuses and will even let defectors still worship the Emperor was enough to get people turning against the Imperium the Tau would currently be the number one superpower in the galaxy. As it stands, the minute any rebelling worlds learn the Federation would be expecting them to play nice with the Xenos out there, the Federation would quickly lose those worlds support.

The Federation has a major advantage the Tau don't have: they aren't filthy xenon scum. Nor do they worship heathen gods, and they're politically dominant over alien races in their Federation.

Hell, given the morale of the Gue'vesa, former imperials who've gone Fed would probably be edging into the fanatical range.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

For the same reason the Imperium is willing to spend millions of lives and centuries of rebuilding to defend the planets it currently has: if they destroyed habitable worlds at the smallest sign of resistance, it'd run out of planets.

Well, in the scenario depicted, it would be the Federation's planets getting nuked.

Unless the Federation had something the Imperium really really wanted and the Imperium knew about it, there's really no reason why they wouldn't start hurling cyclonic torpedoes around as soon as the naval conflict went south. Assuming they're able to; it may be difficult if they can't locate Federation worlds or simply can't get a ship there safely.

Even when the IoM wins a conflict, it comes out of it weaker. That's been true throughout its lifespan. On considering the toll in men and materials, not to mention the inevitable rebellions, defections, and civil wars that are going to break out when they come in contact with a Federation that's human controlled, hugely technologically advanced, doesn't run its entire economy based around human rights abuses, and will even let defectors still worship the Emperor, the Imperium, even if they win, are going to pay a hugely disproportionate amount.

"Win but get weaker" is an oversimplication. Numerous wars in the Imperium's history have resulted in tangible, non-Phyrric gains. Lord Solar Macharius conquered one thousand worlds in just seven years, only a few centuries out from 40k's "present" day timeline. Not "reclaimed"; he literally pushed the border of the Imperium as far as it could go. Aside from that, the Sabbat Worlds Crusade and the Angevin Crusade (off the top of my head) both resulted in the reclamation of vast stellar territories that had been either uninhabited or just isolated for thousands of years.

The Imperium is decaying, but it is doing so slowly and on a galactic scale. Individual campaigns still result in large gains or the recovery of long-lost territory. As a historical comparison, the Byzantine Empire took nearly a thousand years to fall, and experienced a half-dozen vast fluctuations in the size of its territory and the strength of its armies over that time. It wasn't a steady one-way decline.

And would the Federation permit potential defectors to worship the Emperor? As in...the nominal ruler of the political entity that they are at war with? The guy whose state religion was founded on an extreme human supremacist ideology that makes Khan and his eugenicist buddies look like flower children?

I don't think Starfleet would be okay with that.