Poll: ST Federation or 40k Imperium - who would win in a war?

[Level 7 Dragon]

Salute, Escapists.

There are two popular interstellar futures within the nerd community: The Federation of planets from Star Trek and the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40k.

Despite both attempting to represent a utopia, they may easily be considered polar opposites. The Imperium is ruled with an iron fist by an immortal monarch and possesses the largest military in the galaxy, a devout religious following and an absurd military-industrial complex. The Federation is based on an idealized version of the West, putting democracy, diplomacy, free trade and technological progress at the forefront of its society.

For the sake of the argument we'll take TNG Federation and Post-Collapse Imperium to have a more equal playing field.

While the Imperium outnumbers the Federation, they are fairly xenophobic and technologically stagnant, which makes their weapons and armour fairly easy to reverse-engineer.

A major difference between the Federation and the Imperium is their ground troops. One has a ban on advanced genetic engineering, while the other has a ban on the creation of sentient machines. It's rather clear that a Redshirt would't stand a chance against a Grey Angel or the Guard, which would give one an advantage in planetary raids. However, the Federation's ship building technology is progressing at an tremedious rate, while the Imperium forgot most of its ship-building techniques since the Horus Heresy.

So guys, who would win in a large scale war? If there would be a winner, that is.

 

[Megalodon]

Eh? Since when was 40k meant to represent a utopia? That's pretty much the opposite of what the setting is about.

 

[Fox12]

Well...

 

[Level 7 Dragon]

Eh? Since when was 40k meant to represent a utopia? That's pretty much the opposite of what the setting is about.

Golden Age Imperium was supposed to be a fascist "utopia". It's okay to think that such a thing is an oxymoron.

 

[Hawki]

The Imperium, but given the nature of 40K, the Imperium would probably curbstomp any faction from any setting. The only setting that might match it is the Whoniverse, or maybe Star Wars.

 

[Aeshi]

I'm more familiar with 40k than Star Trek, but I'd say it depends on:

A) How much of the various super-tech the Enterprise/Protagonist Vessel has unearthed at various points gets brought back/used.

B) Whether or not the Imperium still has to keep fighting the Orks, 'Nids, Tau, Chaos and so on and so forth while they're doing this.

The Imperium, but given the nature of 40K, the Imperium would probably curbstomp any faction from any setting. The only setting that might match it is the Whoniverse, or maybe Star Wars.

I think the EVE-Online-iverse would stand a fairly good chance. The various weapon/ship descriptions make it sound pretty high up on the "tech-tree", and most of their largest ships are of equal (if not bigger, difficult as that may be to believe) scale to 40k's largest ships.

 

[Tony2077]

i'm thinking 40k curbstomping the federation

 

[Megalodon]

Eh? Since when was 40k meant to represent a utopia? That's pretty much the opposite of what the setting is about.

Golden Age Imperium was supposed to be a fascist "utopia". It's okay to think that such a thing is an oxymoron.

Firstly, that's not 40k then. The 30k era is a completely different beast, and even then it wasn't a utopia. By this logic 1984 or Brave New World are utopias, because they're pretty much 'perfect' authoritarian states.

Was the Dominion in DS9 a utopia? Because if the Imperium counts then so does the Dominion, yet I've never seen that claim made.

 

[Hawki]

I think the EVE-Online-iverse would stand a fairly good chance. The various weapon/ship descriptions make it sound pretty high up on the "tech-tree", and most of their largest ships are of equal (if not bigger, difficult as that may be to believe) scale to 40k's largest ships.

Can't comment on EVE. Though come to think of it, maybe Andromeda could go head to head. And I suppose I could pick and choose specific elements from specific settings (usually the "ancient powerful race" trope).

 

[Asclepion]

The Imperium, but given the nature of 40K, the Imperium would probably curbstomp any faction from any setting. The only setting that might match it is the Whoniverse, or maybe Star Wars.

I say this as a 40K fan, but the Imperium of Man is not super powerful compared to other Sci-fi factions. They seem so because of how large scale everything is, but their technology is meant to be stagnant and many of their worlds are literally medieval.

 

[Neverhoodian]

Imperium of Man, no question. Even if you were to use their lesser 40k incarnation, they still have access to resources, manpower and tech that the Federation can only dream about (albeit at the cost of being one of the worst dystopias ever depicted in fiction). Just getting from point A to point B is laughably skewed in the Imperium's favor. It takes years, decades even for Federation ships to travel long distances across the galaxy (Janeway estimated a travel time of 75 years to travel 70,000 light years), whereas the Imperial Navy can manage it in about a month or two if Warp currents are favorable.

The Imperium, but given the nature of 40K, the Imperium would probably curbstomp any faction from any setting. The only setting that might match it is the Whoniverse, or maybe Star Wars.

I say this as a 40K fan, but the Imperium of Man is not super powerful compared to other Sci-fi factions. They seem so because of how large scale everything is, but their technology is meant to be stagnant and many of their worlds are literally medieval.

Uhhh, really? Have you SEEN what the Imperium's capable of? Destroying an entire world is usually a huge deal in other sci-fi settings; in WH40k it's "just another day at the office."

As for the tech level of worlds, it varies greatly depending on their strategic value. Sleepy, backwater agri-world far from the action? Let the peasants scrape by with stone houses. Forge World that produces vital war material? Fortify the shit out of it with the most advanced and destructive hardware the tech-priests can salvage.

 

[Veylon]

The Federation is eternally about as unprepared for a fight as a interstellar organization could possibly be. It recoils at the idea of having warships.

It's most military organization - Starfleet - is explicitly stated not to be a military organization. To the extent of being an armed force, it's a purely defensive one; it's not going hit Imperial bases near the border, let alone jump straight for Holy Terra to launch a decapitation attack against the Emperor.

The Federation is more versatile than the Imperium and given enough time and brutalization, it would gradually warm to the idea of developing and deploying weapons of mass destruction against Imperial centers just as Britain moved from worrying over the legality of bombing privately-owned factories in Germany to wholesale area night attacks. The Federation is far more likely to invent the galactic-scale equivalent of the atom bomb than the Imperium.

But unless the Federation is already extremely far ahead of the Imperium - at least in travel time - I don't see the war lasting long enough for that to matter. The Imperium has fleets of warships, legions upon legions of soldiers, and is immediately ready to use them with the utmost of ruthlessness. The Federation has to spend time breaking down all the legal and psychological barriers before it can allow itself to prepare to begin competing at that level.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I know size isn't everything, but a standard Imperial warship fires shells larger than most Federation ships.

I think this says it all:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Size-Comparison-Science-Fiction-Spaceships-398790051

If you check it, the Enterprise-D, the Flagship of the Federation, is about the same size as a 40k Sub-Light system monitor patrol boat.
And then we get into the actual Imperial Warships, including the Apocalypse Grand Cruisers and Gloriana Battlships, each one more than capable of taking on the entire Federation fleet.

 

[Asclepion]

snip

They can easily destroy worlds, but their ships weapons are controlled by guys pulling ropes. They have very unreliable FTL.

Also, Federation ships are able to battle at high impulse/low warp using warp-capable torpedoes, something that as far as I am aware the IoM is incapable of doing.

 

[senordesol]

The Imperium all the way.

The Federation only engages an unknown vessel when it is absolutely necessary (even going so far as to let the enemy get a few shots in before returning fire). IoM would microwave the Enterprise with LasCannons before Picard got his bald ass out of the chair.

However even if the Federation took a more aggressive stance; the IoM has got sheer numbers on its side. Once a Guard regiment is on the ground (to say nothing of a company of Astartes); it would be O-V-E-R. The Fed usually tries to preserve the battlefield, but the IoM is perfectly content to 'shell the village to save it.'

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

The Imperium all the way.

The Federation only engages an unknown vessel when it is absolutely necessary (even going so far as to let the enemy get a few shots in before returning fire). IoM would microwave the Enterprise with LasCannons before Picard got his bald ass out of the chair.

However even if the Federation took a more aggressive stance; the IoM has got sheer numbers on its side. Once a Guard regiment is on the ground (to say nothing of a company of Astartes); it would be O-V-E-R. The Fed usually tries to preserve the battlefield, but the IoM is perfectly content to 'shell the village to save it.'

To be fair the Federation has technology out the ass. A Space Marine Company lands on Earth and Data just uses a subspace transmission to shut down their armor and effortlessly teleport them 2 miles into the air and lets them drop. Or if a battalion of Guard land, just create a shield around them so they can't move and reduce the oxygen in the bubble until they pass out.

The Imperial ships have some advantage in that they're almost all turn-crank analog ships with very little hack-able tech. So no one is going to hack into a Battlship's systems and turn off the reactor because the reactor is literally a plasma coal powered steam engine with 100,000 slaves shoveling plasma coal into it.

 

[senordesol]

The Imperium all the way.

The Federation only engages an unknown vessel when it is absolutely necessary (even going so far as to let the enemy get a few shots in before returning fire). IoM would microwave the Enterprise with LasCannons before Picard got his bald ass out of the chair.

However even if the Federation took a more aggressive stance; the IoM has got sheer numbers on its side. Once a Guard regiment is on the ground (to say nothing of a company of Astartes); it would be O-V-E-R. The Fed usually tries to preserve the battlefield, but the IoM is perfectly content to 'shell the village to save it.'

To be fair the Federation has technology out the ass. A Space Marine Company lands on Earth and Data just uses a subspace transmission to shut down their armor and effortlessly teleport them 2 miles into the air and lets them drop. Or if a battalion of Guard land, just create a shield around them so they can't move and reduce the oxygen in the bubble until they pass out.

The Imperial ships have some advantage in that they're almost all turn-crank analog ships with very little hack-able tech. So no one is going to hack into a Battlship's systems and turn off the reactor because the reactor is literally a plasma coal powered steam engine with 100,000 slaves shoveling plasma coal into it.

Transporters tend to go spotty in little more than bad weather; with all the interference of plasma guns and radiation weapons, it's unlikely the teleport option would be available. Such tactics have never been utilized by the Federation anyway. They've come to the brink of losing to the Klingons on several occasions (and they're basically no better than Orks in a ground fight).

Additionally, you'd need an awfully big FF generator to contain a guard regiment in the first place (let alone one that could withstand their combined firepower as they shot their way out).

Hacking Astartes armour is viable to a point. A space marine can still more in disabled PA (just not very well), if he were to release the interlocks; he'd still be a far greater match than SF 'soldiers'.

 

[Neverhoodian]

snip

They can easily destroy worlds, but their ships weapons are controlled by guys pulling ropes. They have very unreliable FTL.

Also, Federation ships are able to battle at high impulse/low warp using warp-capable torpedoes, something that as far as I am aware the IoM is incapable of doing.

Scores of burly men and/or servitors responsible for ship controls means low risk of system sabotage from those technobabble-crazed Feddies.

I'll admit, the Warp has a reputation for fucking with those who risk traversing it. Still, that's more than an acceptable risk for a callous, hyper-militant regime with more men to throw around than a communist dictator's most frenzied of wet dreams.

I suppose Federation vessels could slowly wear down Imperial ships in that fashion. They'd just have to make sure they don't run out of said torpedoes. Still, it wouldn't do much to slow down an Imperial battle fleet sent to decimate a Federation shipyard. A few such strikes on key targets would cripple the Federation, whereas the Imperium could weather potentially hundreds of similar attacks due to its sheer size and numbers.

"Quantity has a quality all its own." - Joseph Stalin

 

[Thaluikhain]

In Star Trek, Star Trek would win due to hero luck and technobabble. In 40k, the Imperium cause grimdark.

Anyhoo, the Imperium, easy. The Federation is not interested in war, and they are utterly, utterly useless at it. Mostly this is consistently bad writing when it comes to it.

For example, the Borg. It is well known that the Borg with quickly adapt to the phasers redshirts carry. The Federation has replicators that can turn out whatever they want more or less instantly. What do they issue the redshirts? Phasers, combadges and maybe a tricorder and that's it. They know they need more equipment, they can easily get more equipment, they just don't. They don't even set their otherwise useless phasers to overload and make bombs out of them, phaser of pipes or something to use as clubs when the battle inevitably goes hand to hand.

Now, in 40k, there's a lot of useless people around, but then a lot of people putting at least a moderate amount of effort into trying to win.