Gotta give to the overly muscled meat heads with an over-zealous need to compensate for something.
Poll: ST Federation or 40k Imperium - who would win in a war?
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The Imperium uses the power of awful writing and balancing. They would just send wave after wave of their forces until everyone in the Federation suffocated under the Imperium's grimdark masturbatory teenage power fantasy.
To be fair, that's simply WW1 talking. I mean look at a Spartan [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/4/45/Spartan_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121018065319] and compare that to the WW1 Mrk4 battle tank [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/British_Mark_IV_Tadpole_tank.jpg]. Most of 40k is just British reaction to WW1/2.Steppin Razor said:
So they truly believe you can take over a world with a billion troopers.
Not even counting the sheer firepower and numbers, there's mentality as well. An organization adverse to war vs a genocidal theocratic regime not afraid to decimate planets on a whim and throw millions of their own to their death to achieve a single objective? C'mon folks, this isn't much of a fight.
The bureaucracy only applies to certain levels. The Astartes chapters, just as one example, can operate independently as desired (and frankley, they usually do). Who the FUCK is going to tell them to fill out paperwork before descending on a place and acting as the Emperor's Angels of Death?Addendum_Forthcoming said:
I will let the venerable Stan Lee answer this one:
Which is pretty much always the answer, I can sit around coming up with technobabble excuses for the federation to win, and plenty of grimdark explanations for the Imperium winning. I can think of half a dozen gamebreakers either side could use just off the top of my head.
Before we even start the comparison, either side can win simply by the physics of their native universe and how we interpret them working in an out of context scenario. Does the warp work in this scenario? How does it interact with Star Trek Warp drives and tech? Can void shields interrupt transporters? What version of the federation are we talking about here? If we go whole hog then are we including the time traveling super ships of the future Federation that can rewrite history? How do psychic powers work on Star Trek characters? Without a soul or presence in the Warp it would be like fighting an entire empire of blanks. With how unreliable warp travel is can the Imperium even hunt down the Federation, it would take decades or centuries for fleets to reach some areas. Are warp storms in play? Which interpretation of the Golden throne being destroyed are we using? the one where the emperor dies, or the one where he ascends into a new chaos god of humanity? Is the void dragon on mars in play? Does Chaos or the Q continuum get a say here or are they magically barred from this throwdown?
Then we move on to tactics, strategy, how do they meet, how much of the Imperium are we talking about, are rogue traders and isolated fiefdoms included here, do other species interfere, do the Federation get their allies, they are a federation after all, do they know the size or location of their respective opponents, are they attacking each other through dimensional gateways, or is it different galaxies, etc. etc. so on and so forth.
The imperium is massively larger than the Federation, but again, I will go with Stan Lee on this one, whoever wins is whoever the person writing the scenario wants to win, no ifs ands or buts.
You have to set up a more specific scenario, because as it is there are plenty of good arguments for either side winning.
Which is pretty much always the answer, I can sit around coming up with technobabble excuses for the federation to win, and plenty of grimdark explanations for the Imperium winning. I can think of half a dozen gamebreakers either side could use just off the top of my head.
Before we even start the comparison, either side can win simply by the physics of their native universe and how we interpret them working in an out of context scenario. Does the warp work in this scenario? How does it interact with Star Trek Warp drives and tech? Can void shields interrupt transporters? What version of the federation are we talking about here? If we go whole hog then are we including the time traveling super ships of the future Federation that can rewrite history? How do psychic powers work on Star Trek characters? Without a soul or presence in the Warp it would be like fighting an entire empire of blanks. With how unreliable warp travel is can the Imperium even hunt down the Federation, it would take decades or centuries for fleets to reach some areas. Are warp storms in play? Which interpretation of the Golden throne being destroyed are we using? the one where the emperor dies, or the one where he ascends into a new chaos god of humanity? Is the void dragon on mars in play? Does Chaos or the Q continuum get a say here or are they magically barred from this throwdown?
Then we move on to tactics, strategy, how do they meet, how much of the Imperium are we talking about, are rogue traders and isolated fiefdoms included here, do other species interfere, do the Federation get their allies, they are a federation after all, do they know the size or location of their respective opponents, are they attacking each other through dimensional gateways, or is it different galaxies, etc. etc. so on and so forth.
The imperium is massively larger than the Federation, but again, I will go with Stan Lee on this one, whoever wins is whoever the person writing the scenario wants to win, no ifs ands or buts.
You have to set up a more specific scenario, because as it is there are plenty of good arguments for either side winning.
Federation would clearly win. Two reasons :
- Science level. Star Trek seems more advanced. Not only that they can actually analyze, modify and incorporate any new tech they encounter and do so really fast. The Immperium has not only a lot of really outdated stuff and methods, their most impressive technological gimmics are always only impressive because of size. Modifying and improving technology is nearly heresy and just not done, incorporating alien stuff pretty much unthinkable.
- This war is not about ground combat. This war is about controlling space and troop movement/logistics. The Empire only has it's really unreliable Hyperspace drive through one dimension they don't understand and control. Federation has its utterly reliable Warp Drive. And half a dozen experimental less reliable methods to move faster (traditional Transwarp, portal based Transwarp, Slipstream...). And incredible fast reliable communication (However that works). And timetravel (yeah, yeah, forbidden... but they use it all the time anyway if it is serious enough). And access to a dozen other strange dimensions which they actually can manipulate (Chances are they can find one that interacts with 40k Warp somehow : using a subspace bomb to mislead/distroy inwading fleets in the warp ? Not out of question)
OTOH The Federation doesn't have ressources (or interest) to actually invade the 40K Imperium. But they could surely stop any invasion.
Also, blowing up worlds is something both franchise do occasionally. Federation doesn't use it as weapon (normally) but they have blown up how many uninhibated planets/suns/solar systems over the series and movies now ? And successfully ought how many enemies who did use it as weapon ? It is no game changer in the ST-Universe.
- Science level. Star Trek seems more advanced. Not only that they can actually analyze, modify and incorporate any new tech they encounter and do so really fast. The Immperium has not only a lot of really outdated stuff and methods, their most impressive technological gimmics are always only impressive because of size. Modifying and improving technology is nearly heresy and just not done, incorporating alien stuff pretty much unthinkable.
- This war is not about ground combat. This war is about controlling space and troop movement/logistics. The Empire only has it's really unreliable Hyperspace drive through one dimension they don't understand and control. Federation has its utterly reliable Warp Drive. And half a dozen experimental less reliable methods to move faster (traditional Transwarp, portal based Transwarp, Slipstream...). And incredible fast reliable communication (However that works). And timetravel (yeah, yeah, forbidden... but they use it all the time anyway if it is serious enough). And access to a dozen other strange dimensions which they actually can manipulate (Chances are they can find one that interacts with 40k Warp somehow : using a subspace bomb to mislead/distroy inwading fleets in the warp ? Not out of question)
OTOH The Federation doesn't have ressources (or interest) to actually invade the 40K Imperium. But they could surely stop any invasion.
Also, blowing up worlds is something both franchise do occasionally. Federation doesn't use it as weapon (normally) but they have blown up how many uninhibated planets/suns/solar systems over the series and movies now ? And successfully ought how many enemies who did use it as weapon ? It is no game changer in the ST-Universe.
Well it works however you imagine it would simply because Star Trek is so wishy washy with it's "tech", essentially they solve 98% of all problems in the universe by flicking polarities back and forth.
But if there was an actual defined set of rules Warhammer 40k has a much better shot, because they are religiously and obsessively dedicated to nothing but all out brutal war, whatever heinous or "righteous" shit they would need to do for a win they would do it.
But if there was an actual defined set of rules Warhammer 40k has a much better shot, because they are religiously and obsessively dedicated to nothing but all out brutal war, whatever heinous or "righteous" shit they would need to do for a win they would do it.
Right. But if we assume both the Federation and the IoM can win. As in there is a real question of strength... merely having an infinitely small segment of the IoM that can actually be efficient.... compared to the entirety of the main defensive and offensive power of the IoM.... still seems crippling.Smithnikov said:
Basically the entirety of the Federation and her allies are effective, expediant and deadly. Plus given teleporters and cloaking devices are commonplace, the Federation totally one up the Space Marines in surgical strikes. Not only that but automation. A single industrial replicator can feed and arm an army ...
The best ships in the IoM are good because they are old. Whereas the Federation can mass build warships that are guaranteed to outgun competition as time goes on.
Logistics + maneuverability + technological superiority. The Federation outclasses the IoM in all these regards. Hell, the ST universe has active time travel. Whether they would employ it is a question.
Map of federation territory in their respective galaxy
Map of the Imperium after the heresy.
Size comparison of ships has already been posted, but the biggest star trek ship designed for war would be tiny in the 40k verse.
The point about 40k ships and tech being resistant to hacking hijinx due to their archaic nature is an interesting one...So there is an advantage to having a ship's guns being manually loaded and armed by thousands of crew after all!
Also how would the federation deal with psykers anyway?
Finally i remember that DS9 episode about a bunch of federation marines and how they were breaking down and suffering extreme stress under conditions that would seem laughable for a standard imperial guard trooper... Oh lordie, a planetary invasion against a federation world would be the most one sided thing ever, no matter what kind of technological wizardry they pulled (and if they were capable of doing such things, why didn't they show it in the dominion war?), the imperium simply wouldn't care about losses or setbacks and continue to drown the planet in fanatical troops for whom fighting the federation troops would be the closest they ever got to a holiday.
The biggest weakness of the 40k side would be the reaction time, they are usually on the defensive and struggling to hold on all sides against all manner of nightmares and thus take time to shift ressources around and get their stuff together to push back the next intergalactic menace..Except the federation is unlikely to be the aggressor and really capitalize on this, likely only realizing their mistake far too late when the first actual imperial armada is on their way.
Honestly why do people hate star trek so much that i frequently see it bought up in a universe vs universe fight :/
It's not even 40k, but things like Star Wars too, Star Trek is simply not a setting where galactic warfare is a primary focus and is more about exploration and negotiation. Deep Space 9 was a bit of an exception but even then, that just goes to show how sucky the federation are in war when they had to be bailed out by their protagonist conveniently being a prophet of a god like race blessed with super powers that allowed them to completely wipe out the enemy fleet during transit that would otherwise have doomed them.
So yeah, other then god like entities like the prophets or the Qs, the star trek setting doesn't really have anything crazily OP in comparison to other sci fi settings, thus would usually get flattened in short order.
Even with teleporters, the federation would never come close to being effective shock troops to rival the Astartes. I'd love to see an away team beam up on an imperial ship only to be met with thousands upon thousands of crew men. With the sheer size and complexity of imperial ships where even the crew themselves don't fully know the layout of their ships, like hell your average red shirt would know where to go even if they go for obvious power sources.Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Part of what makes Astartes the perfect shock troops isn't just their means of transportation, but them being walking tanks armed with weapons that function like rapid firing rpgs. And if that's not enough, they are capable of ripping any human sized foe limb from limb.
Giving a redshirt squad teleporters and beaming them upon the bridge of a 40k ship, or its reactor rooms or w/e, isn't likely to go in their favor, crews in the 40k setting deal with much worst.
Industrial replicators would be relevant in prolonged conflicts but i just don't see that happening, and would only just draw the curiosity of techpriests and inquisitors so they can get their hands on this delicious piece of tech/destroy it for heresy as the case may be.
And even replicators ain't a guaranteed solution, and relying on them only makes federation troops soft in comparison to their 40k counterparts.. That DS9 episode i was talking about, siege of something something, they didn't have replicators for w/e reason and were going absolutely crazy under "harsh" conditions that would seem laughable for any 40k guardsman.
Finally the federation doesn't have the ability to build ships on a scale that counts, their losses at Worf 359 or whatever that number was, was deemed a disaster...And the fleet they gathered to defend the earth against a single borg cube in the first contact movie was pitifully small. They won't be producing thousands of ships quickly, even producing ships in the hundreds would be a massive challenge for them. Haven't looked up how many shipyards the federation has or how fast they can make ships, but clearly they ain't gonna be mass producing fleets based on what i've seen in DS9 or the first contact film.
As time goes on, yeah they could make massive leaps of technology..But they won't have that time, their territory is simply too small and their standing army/fleet is too tiny to effectively stall and blunt an imperial advance to a degree significant enough to buy the time that is needed.
well the imperium, they simply outnumber the federation even if the original series cruisers were powerful enough to turn a planet into a slag heap let alone TNG.
the federation started to fight alot of wars in the TNG era and one thing they were good at and that was adapting to the enemy and utilising new technology like self replicating cloaked mines for instance.
the federation started to fight alot of wars in the TNG era and one thing they were good at and that was adapting to the enemy and utilising new technology like self replicating cloaked mines for instance.
So how does that equate to them even having the numbers to successfully occupy even a fraction of the Imperial worlds, let alone laying siege to Terra or Mars or similar home objectives?Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Beuracracy was mentioned, by the way. Why is ST immune from this, as is their usual unwillingness to wage a full on "Kill them all and let God sort them out" conflict as is implied here? As I said, mentality is as much a factor as firepower is here, and my money is on the ones indoctrinated with "Suffer not the heretic/xeno to live".
Yeah, one might ask "Who'd do better in peaceful co-existence and exploration?" instead. One regime favours war, the other favours peace.Smithnikov said:
If the Federation can somehow get Q to cooperate with them, then this fight will be over before it even started. Good luck with that though.
I doubt that he'll be considered in this scenario, but I wouldn't mind seeing what silliness would happen if Q were to end up in the 40K universe.
I doubt that he'll be considered in this scenario, but I wouldn't mind seeing what silliness would happen if Q were to end up in the 40K universe.
Which makes the Federation roughly the size of the Tau domain - which still seems to be a problem for the Imperium.Frankster said:
Shown battles always had low numbers because they were really costly. The losses from important battles during the dominion war usually go into hundreds of ships and are mentioned in off-hand comment and the assambled strike force against Cardassia (yes, allies included) was over 1500 ships. And that is what could gathered reasonably fast and without harming normal ship traffic (though weakening other fronts). Producing hundreds of ships in very short time seems to have happened too. Worf 359 seems to have been more a emotional defeat, loosing 39 ships and still not stopping the enemy. It is not even remotely representative of the strength of the federation. Still not a lot compared to the Imperium, but not that small.
Not sure how relevant that would be in this case, the Federation has a nasty tendency to invent horrifying super weapons when it's threatened by war-like empires. Things like teleporting super torpedoes that one shot Borg cubes, self-replicating mines, and the ability to destroy stars, then never mentioning them again after realizing how overkill such weapons are. Also time travel.Thaluikhain said:
Either side can win depending on the scenario, setup and how the different physics systems interact with each other, but the Federation by its own narrative has regularly gone up against regimes that favor war.
The Imperium has more planets than the Federation has warships. Maybe ten planets for every warship the Federation has. Maybe even a hundred. It isn't really a contest. People say that the Imperium can be slow to act, but it's worth remembering that when they want to, they can really get their shit together. Look at the Sabbat Crusades. In under four decades, they were able to take a hundred heavily fortified star systems back from Chaos. And this is without getting into how exactly the Federation would conquer the Imperium, seeing as the Imperium's smallest starship dwarfs the Federation's largest one. Sure the Federation might be able to technobable their way through a lot of it, but they just really wouldn't stand a chance. Add to the fact that the Federation doesn't really have ANYTHING going in the ground warfare department, so even if they could take on the Imperial Navy, they'd be screwed the second they tried to take a fortress world.
This is kind of a moot point anyway. The Imperium of Man is supposed to be an over the top, war crazy, psychotic super power that originally was supposed to mock grim darkness, whereas the Federation is supposed to show a future humanity should collectively desire to strive to. Of course the Federation wouldn't win. It wouldn't be the Federation if it did. The Federation doesn't even really maintain a defensive fleet, Starfleet is actually kind of on the small side (Wolf 359 heavily indicated that it was only a few dozen ships) and they have to rapidly speed up production whenever a war starts (Apparently their engineers are really freaking good)
This is kind of a moot point anyway. The Imperium of Man is supposed to be an over the top, war crazy, psychotic super power that originally was supposed to mock grim darkness, whereas the Federation is supposed to show a future humanity should collectively desire to strive to. Of course the Federation wouldn't win. It wouldn't be the Federation if it did. The Federation doesn't even really maintain a defensive fleet, Starfleet is actually kind of on the small side (Wolf 359 heavily indicated that it was only a few dozen ships) and they have to rapidly speed up production whenever a war starts (Apparently their engineers are really freaking good)
The Tau are much more militarized then the federation is, and the only reason it hasn't been stamped out by the Imperium (and general consensus is it can do so at any moment it truly wants it) is due to a combination of plot armor and that there are other intergalactic menaces to deal with that are higher on the imperiums to kill list.Satinavian said:
Out of the 2 major campaigns against the tau, the first ended because the imperium had to go deal with the tyranids on the other side of the galaxy. The second, much smaller, spearheaded by the black templars (or might have been another chapter, but yeh this was mainly the work of a single astartes group), was enough to reclaim most of what the tau gained when the imperium had their backs turned dealing with bigger threats and push them back to where they started more or less.
Regarding ship numbers, fair enough, i did not think the federation was capable of gathering 1k+ ships. I admit my knowledge of star trek is purely limited to what i saw in the shows (and i think i might have read a book or 2 when i was younger but can barely remember those) and it was always my perception that federation ship numbers were very low to the point losing "just" a dozen ships or so was a big blow, further cemented by just how few ships were defending earth against a single borg cube. Based on that battle, you can understand why i'd imagine a imperial battle group just tearing their way straight through the earth, if a single borg ship can do it, surely an imperial armada can too! Since that is incompatible with what you say of the dominion war this makes me a bit confused. Where was the 1k+ ships defending the earth?
Or did the single borg cube solo them all and it took picard to help them find its weakpoint?
Eugh maybe it's best i just ignore the first contact space battle for now ><
So, wait: one faction has access to a weapon delivery system that can, with a single torpedo, completely wipe out and terraform a planet; gives every member in it a device smaller than a tv remote which can utterly vaporize an adult human being; has ships that can straight up warp in close to planets and such instead of get to the edge of a system and then spend weeks moving in closer; can fire any number of bullshit super science warheads from said FTL ships without having to drop out of FTL at ranges equaling "I'm at Earth, you're at Jupiter, time to start combat"; and said super science warheads are protected by a shield that can survive entry into a star, and have matter replicators to replace said bullshit super science warheads at a rate that could make a forge world blush.
And that's just counting the armaments of a long range science and exploration vessel.
And those are the guys that are going to lose? To a bunch of hyper masculine fanatics armed with oversized slug-throwers and laser weapons with all the punch and power of an AK-47 and who target the general area around a ship because they don't have the capability to fire directly on target.
The only Federation ships the Imperium have a chance at hitting are the Federation ships going out of their way to be nice. When the Federation goes on the offensive, the Imperium's only hope is that the Federation keeps respecting its own laws against war crimes and genocide.
EDIT: More points I forget. The Federation has access to stable and reliable, if also risky, methods of time travel during the original series, much less by the time they get to TNG levels of tech. For that matter, I generally see a lot of... underestimation of Trek's general tech level. In 40k terms, you're looking at unscientific brutes like the Klingons riding around in ships that can rival the Eldar. (A Bird of Prey is small, fast, packs a surprising punch, and can cloak) The Federation is using Necron tech as a baseline and is rapidly improving on top of that.
And that's just counting the armaments of a long range science and exploration vessel.
And those are the guys that are going to lose? To a bunch of hyper masculine fanatics armed with oversized slug-throwers and laser weapons with all the punch and power of an AK-47 and who target the general area around a ship because they don't have the capability to fire directly on target.
The only Federation ships the Imperium have a chance at hitting are the Federation ships going out of their way to be nice. When the Federation goes on the offensive, the Imperium's only hope is that the Federation keeps respecting its own laws against war crimes and genocide.
EDIT: More points I forget. The Federation has access to stable and reliable, if also risky, methods of time travel during the original series, much less by the time they get to TNG levels of tech. For that matter, I generally see a lot of... underestimation of Trek's general tech level. In 40k terms, you're looking at unscientific brutes like the Klingons riding around in ships that can rival the Eldar. (A Bird of Prey is small, fast, packs a surprising punch, and can cloak) The Federation is using Necron tech as a baseline and is rapidly improving on top of that.