Poll: Stannis vs. Daenerys - Better claim?

[Burnhardt]

Claim? Well, if the theories about Jon are true. I'd definitely go for a Jon as King/ Stannis as Hand or vice versa.

If the theory about Jon is true...then he's still a bastard, and thus has no inheritance rights, making the point completely moot. His vows to the Nights Watch don't help.

 

[ecoho]

its very simple stannis has the better claim but danny has shown she would be the better ruler. The reason I say that is she actually listens to advice after shes been proven wrong(albeit usually after screwing up rather epically) were as stannis flat out refuses to listen to anyone who contradicts his red headed witch. Honestly I think the fact that they are comparable at all shows how much more suited danny is as she has no real ruling experience growing up but as far as I see hasn't made any worse mistakes then stannis has and hes been ruling for 10+ years.

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

Going by CK2 rules: Stannis.

Robert took the title from Whats-his-face Targaryen using what I assume would be a fabricated claim or an invasion casus belli, then he died. Assuming the Iron Throne uses Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture succession law, the title would pass to his eldest son, but since all Cersei's kids are bastards he has none. The title will then go to his next eldest brother, Stannis.

I can't remember if Dany would have a weak claim or a strong claim, but Stannis is literally the rightful heir. And this is ignoring the fact that almost everyone hates the Targaryen's guts anyways. And the fact she's a women and medieval leaders don't take kindly to that.

Well no matter how strong the claim, nothing can help the fact Stannis has a warscore of like 0% atm.

 

[WolfThomas]

I would have payed more attention to them if I'd had a chance to read the rest of them yet. As for the rest of your post, those are all really good points. I'll admit I didn't factor in the obvious difference between Dany's three "Oh shit, it's a dragon, send some guys to shoot it down" size dragons and Aegon's three "OH SHIT HE ATE OUR SHIPS!" size dragons. Thank you for clearing the misrepresentation I had of the Westoros soldiers.
And you're right the Seven Kingdoms would probably have a few things to say about some (from their perspective) random army led by a teenage girl trying to take the Throne.
That's the thing about these discussions. When you take away the gray zones of whose claim is more "right" and try to deduce endgames from these situations it can get very murky in terms of the hugely complex socioploitical systems and subtle power plays from the countless houses. It's a lot of fun. I'll go ahead and back out as I'm seeing things being discussed I have no clue about as I'm still in the act of catching up with everyone else.

Sorry I missed the point about the first book. And also I apologise for being so out of the gates aggressive. I'm a regular member of A Forum of Ice and Fire. There's nothing that hasn't extensively been debated there and they get pretty hot some times. So in ASOIAF/GOT my first response is all guns blazing.

I hope you won't back out of a riveting discussion on my behalf.

I actually like or liked Dany. I just like Stannis more and it seems everyone is forced to take a side.

Claim? Well, if the theories about Jon are true. I'd definitely go for a Jon as King/ Stannis as Hand or vice versa.

If the theory about Jon is true...then he's still a bastard, and thus has no inheritance rights, making the point completely moot. His vows to the Nights Watch don't help.

There's a theory Rhaegar married Lyanna, as Targs have practiced polygamy in the past.

Spoiler: Also ADWD spoilers beware

Many believe Jon dying and being reborn negates his vows

 

[GrimTuesday]

Going by CK2 rules: Stannis.

Robert took the title from Whats-his-face Targaryen using what I assume would be a fabricated claim or an invasion casus belli, then he died. Assuming the Iron Throne uses Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture succession law, the title would pass to his eldest son, but since all Cersei's kids are bastards he has none. The title will then go to his next eldest brother, Stannis.

I can't remember if Dany would have a weak claim or a strong claim, but Stannis is literally the rightful heir. And this is ignoring the fact that almost everyone hates the Targaryen's guts anyways. And the fact she's a women and medieval leaders don't take kindly to that.

Robert actually had a weak claim that could be pressed to usurp from the Targs. For those who don't know jack shit, Robert's grandmother was a Targ, that is why he was the one to ascend the throne after his rebellion, and not Ned or Jon Arryn. This means that Stannis has that same claim in addition to being Robert's brother and, considering all Robert's supposedly legitimate children are actually Cersei's bastards, Stannis has the best claim.

Dany does have a strong claim as well, probably equally as strong in theory, though she is less than likely to garner much support as she herself doesn't really have any connections inside Westeros.

 

[WolfThomas]

Robert actually had a weak claim that could be pressed to usurp from the Targs. For those who don't know jack shit, Robert's grandmother was a Targ, that is why he was the one to ascend the throne after his rebellion, and not Ned or Jon Arryn. This means that Stannis has that same claim in addition to being Robert's brother and, considering all Robert's supposedly legitimate children are actually Cersei's bastards, Stannis has the best claim.

It gets even more complicated as the Great Council of 101 (and latter the Civil War known as the Dance of Dragons) established that the throne cannot pass to a woman or to a male through a female line. Which is both Danaerys and Stannis respectively.

Edit: Or at least as long as there's a male through a male line (e.g. Viserys) they come first. It's unclear if Stannis is actually before or after Dany.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The reason I say that is she actually listens to advice after shes been proven wrong(albeit usually after screwing up rather epically) were as stannis flat out refuses to listen to anyone who contradicts his red headed witch.

Frankly though, if he had listened to anyone but Melisandre Stannis would be sitting on Dragonstone sulking while Renly would be the competent, likable ruler of the seven kingdoms and everything would be super dandy for everyone but Stannis.

In clash of kings (or start of season 2) Stannis' claim is pretty much hopeless. His "kingdom" is a few rocky islands in the narrow sea. His military forces are heavily dependent on foreign mercenaries and aren't enough to accomplish anything. Melisandre is the only person who actually believes that Stannis can win, and she convinces him to go along with her even when every rational mind says otherwise. What is more, she is generally right, something which is even more evident in the TV show than the books.

Frankly, while she may be a popular hate-figure among fans, not listening to Melisandre would be incredibly foolish at this point. She's demonstrably powerful and has proved her value many times.

 

[thejboy88]

The thing about Westeros is that it always struck me as a land where the strong get to decide, with blood just being an added bonus when needed. Aegon the conquerer had no claim on it whatsoever, yet he became king because he was able to wipe the floor with his enemies. Same with Robert Baratheon. He had no claim on the throne, ye he managed to get it because her and his forces crushed that of the ruling family.

If you have the greater force, can take the throne and hold it from those who want to take it back from you, THAT is what makes you the ruler, not blood and not right.

 

[samgdawg]

Sorry I missed the point about the first book. And also I apologise for being so out of the gates aggressive. I'm a regular member of A Forum of Ice and Fire. There's nothing that hasn't extensively been debated there and they get pretty hot some times. So in ASOIAF/GOT my first response is all guns blazing.

I hope you won't back out of a riveting discussion on my behalf.

I actually like or liked Dany. I just like Stannis more and it seems everyone is forced to take a side.

No, don't feel bad. I enjoyed it a lot actually. Anyone who can get fired up about this is exactly the guy I'd hang out with in person for great debates about just this kind of thing. I'm backing out more cause I'm only at the first few episodes of the fourth season.
Dany, I still like, but I support her in this more as she (hopefully) has potential to change.

Stannis would not be able to hold the Throne for long. His strict, grim, joyless, and all around dour atmosphere and personality would ruin any standing with the commoners as I just can't see him giving them the bread and circuses they'd need to want him as a king. That would the least of his problems though as he would quickly end up sabotaging his standing with probably every house (yay hyperbole) to where the assassins would be bumping into each other awkwardly in the Red Keep hallways. He's a great military person, that's undeniable, but his diplomatic skills are sorely lacking.
Oh, and there I go jumping in head first though I said I wouldn't.

 

[syl3r]

i think it shouldnt be dany vs stannis, but jon Targaryen vs stannis.
im sure that jon snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen (big, dead brother of daenerys, not the cracy one) and Lyanna Stark (sister of eddard).
here is why:
its said that rhaegar gave a trophy meant for the most beautiful woman at a tournament not to his wife, but lyanna. shortly after she was "kidnapped" by him. then robert started his war to get her back. when robert and ned found them, rhaegar got killed and ned found lyanna blody and dieing, he had to promise her something.
that all screams that rhaegar secretly loved lyanna, she got pregnant, they ran away together (maybe even maried) and lyanna died while giving birth to job. ned then took him and raised him as his own, promising to protect him from robert.

that all seems way more plausible then ned CHEATING with some random girl.

the only thing in question is if jon is considered a bastard still or if rhaegar and lyanna were indeed maried.

id guess jon would be pushed to be the rightful king. he would say no, cause of his oath to the nightswatch, but he would give the throne to daenerys with tyrion as the hand of the king with him actually ruling

 

[beastro]

Dany has better claim, but is barren. Even if she weren't her husbands house would inherit her titles and bring in a third ala Joanna the Mad bring in Hapsburg rule to Spain, with a shaky foundation unless she decided to marry a Baratheon ala the union of the Houses of Lancaster and York.

Stannis has less of a claim but can produce an heir that will inherit the Baratheon name. It's still unstable but more stable than all but one of the alternatives.

The whole idea of a "claim to the throne" is meaningless, as Varys illustrates with his riddle, and so conveys one of the main themes of the series.

Most fantasy is fantasy because of all the usual unrealistic fantastical crap that goes on, Martin's work is fantasy because it is so heavily cynical that it's as close a representation of the Middle Ages as The Lord of Rings is.

Claims did matter and no one got anywhere without even a tenuous grasp at one. It's what made pretenders so dangerous and others like rebellious nobility or the lower classes not so much - as much damage as they could cause, as much as they could reduce the power of a monarch, they couldn't remove the monarch and his families claim, but a rival of blood could.

The latter part is somewhat seen in the opening premise with the Baratheon's with their ancestral links to Targaryan blood making them the most likely candidates to inherit the throne. Even during the general break down and disorder it's still legitimate or supposedly legitimate claimants aiming for the throne with the likes of Robb and the Iron Islands trying to reassert their traditional independence.

Unjustly usurped ser? Westeros is a feudal society, there is give and take between King and Lord. Aerys broke the social contract when he unjustly executed Rickard and Brandon Stark and ordered Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert.

It's what people don't get. The rebellion wasn't stepping beyond the pale, it was what the mountain did that forced the rest to consider completely doing away with the Targaryans being the safest course to save their skin instead of putting Vaery's on the throne only for him to later hold all the rebels accountable for their deaths when he came of age.

 

[ecoho]

The reason I say that is she actually listens to advice after shes been proven wrong(albeit usually after screwing up rather epically) were as stannis flat out refuses to listen to anyone who contradicts his red headed witch.

Frankly though, if he had listened to anyone but Melisandre Stannis would be sitting on Dragonstone sulking while Renly would be the competent, likable ruler of the seven kingdoms and everything would be super dandy for everyone but Stannis.

In clash of kings (or start of season 2) Stannis' claim is pretty much hopeless. His "kingdom" is a few rocky islands in the narrow sea. His military forces are heavily dependent on foreign mercenaries and aren't enough to accomplish anything. Melisandre is the only person who actually believes that Stannis can win, and she convinces him to go along with her even when every rational mind says otherwise. What is more, she is generally right, something which is even more evident in the TV show than the books.

Frankly, while she may be a popular hate-figure among fans, not listening to Melisandre would be incredibly foolish at this point. She's demonstrably powerful and has proved her value many times.

true but you got to admit she gives off that "evil sorceress just waiting till your king so I can make you my puppet" feeling. Also the man burns people alive so you know imitating the mad king not the best start to ones rule.

 

[13e thr33]

Am I allowed to do this? Well, Stannis because of this video you have probably already seen. (Also spoilers I guess)

 

[Trunkage]

If we're going by medieval law, then neither has a particularly strong claim.

There's a lot of modern stereotypes regarding the medieval period, and one of them is that kings rule by divine right. Like many fantasy tropes which purport to be medieval, that's actually a much more renaissance and early modern way of thinking about monarchy. A medieval king derives his legitimacy primarily from the backing of the high nobility. They are the true power in the realm, and although that power is technically derived from the king in practice it's the other way around. This means that anything which is important to the high nobility is an important "legal" consideration.

I would put in there something about church (and maybe a pope or four) as you cant claim divine right, its passed by the clergy. Its the way religions got so much power (esp Christians and Muslims, but Israelites as well for short time they held power). It originally came from Pharaohs being gods but the church realised you don't want god in control that cant be usurped.

 

[Silvanus]

Well no matter how strong the claim, nothing can help the fact Stannis has a warscore of like 0% atm.

He's actually got a better record in war than almost any other character. He commanded (and won) the defence of Storm's End, the siege of Dragonstone, and the battles of Fair Isle and Great Wyk during the Greyjoy Rebellion. He was victorious at the Battle of the Wall and the seige of Deepwood Motte.

He lost at Blackwater Bay, but it was a close thing, and he was taken by an unanticipated third force.

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

He's actually got a better record in war than almost any other character. He commanded (and won) the defence of Storm's End, the siege of Dragonstone, and the battles of Fair Isle and Great Wyk during the Greyjoy Rebellion. He was victorious at the Battle of the Wall and the seige of Deepwood Motte.

He lost at Blackwater Bay, but it was a close thing, and he was taken by an unanticipated third force.

Sorry the warscore comment was entirely in reference to CK 2 mechanics, where Stannis would **technically** be the usurper and controlling less than 51% of the de jure kingdom with no significant wins against the crown. Battle of the Wall and Deepwood Motte, while victories, are not victories against the Lannisters and therefore would not contribute to the warscore against the crown.... does this make sense? Ck 2 is a complicated game at times.

 

[Grahav]

Well, now that the show used character assassination to make their Magical Draconic Mary Sue look good, I vote for...

The White Walkers.

Really, cover everything in darkness and ice.

Spoiler

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well, now that the show used character assassination to make their Magical Draconic Mary Sue look good, I vote for...

The White Walkers.

Really, cover everything in darkness and ice.

Spoiler

Nice summation you found there.

Remember though, the changes to the show make it more exciting! And complaining about it is just for bitter book fans who cannot appreciate all the fun deviations!

 

[RedDeadFred]

Well, now that the show used character assassination to make their Magical Draconic Mary Sue look good, I vote for...

The White Walkers.

Really, cover everything in darkness and ice.

Spoiler

This perfectly encapsulates everything that has annoyed me about this season. I've been a pretty big supporter of them doing things differently from the books (I like not knowing what will happen next), but so many of the changes this season have been really awful. They ruined the Mannis and they killed of one of the most badass characters from the books in favour of the awful Grey Worm romance.

I'm not sure why you'd call Danny a Mary Sue though. Mary Sues are supposed to be perfect. Danny burned a man alive right after she had been warned about how her mad father used to do it. Another fucked up change.

 

[Passive Aggression]

Nice summation you found there.

Remember though, the changes to the show make it more exciting! And complaining about it is just for bitter book fans who cannot appreciate all the fun deviations!

According to the "Insider" for the GoT show, GRRM told D&D that, that's how it goes down in the books. Whilst, it's likely sped up for the sake of the show, and it probably happens at a different point in time, it's basically confirmed that, regardless of the "Deviations" It's still the fate of that character in the books as well.