Poll: Superior Character: Batman or Superman
- Thread starter The Consequence
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Might be a little late to say this, but I never really seriously watch DragonBall.TheDrunkNinja said:
I only seen a few episodes here and there when they appear on TV when I was younger. So you know, the details ...That said, my impression of things is, DragonBall basically set the standard for shounen manga/anime. The idealistic and naive lead (Goku) vs the cynical rival (Vegata; or what his name is) - at least I think vegata is the cynical rival, as I said I never watch much, so it's mostly assumption.
Every shounen manga/anime more or less follows variations of that pattern - with a few changes and upgrades of course; the rival characters have gotten more good-looking over the years (Sasuke and Accelerator are for all intents and purposes bishounen).
Re-read my post again:deadish said:
We're talking the absolute best that either character has every been. What would happen when they cut loose, but it was a straight up fight. One day, Superman and Batman met while walking down the street, shook each others hands, and immediately got a sudden urge to absolutely murder one another.TheDrunkNinja said:
If you say that Batman practically has clairvoyance and predicts anything and everything Superman can do, that's over-romanticization of his character, and that means an over-romanticization of Superman's character is also required. And when I say that results in Superman being God, I don't mean he's able to resist Batman's kryptonite. I'm saying that when the Mortal Kombat music starts playing and Shao Khan yells "FIGHT", Batman would have 0.000000001 seconds to react before Superman kills him, as seen in the previous comic.
This isn't speculation or hypothetical composition of a comic writer, since the fight isn't as much of a concern for the writer as the story is, and we're only looking at the fight here. It doesn't depend on anything. It's just honesty. Straight up.
Hmmm... I suppose Vegeta would be closer to Goku's rival. The interesting thing that I notice in those animes is that the lead in question is rivals with those kind of characters because they recognize that they're better than them and desire to excel beyond them. Especially Naruto and Sasuke, as Naruto always felt inadequate to Sasuke, which was also a quality of his hot-headed nature.deadish said:Might be a little late to say this, but I never really seriously watch DragonBall.
That said, my impression of things is, DragonBall basically set the standard for shounen manga/anime. The idealistic and naive lead (Goku) vs the cynical rival (Vegata; or what his name is) - at least I think vegata is the cynical rival, as I said I never watch much, so it's mostly assumption.
Every shounen manga/anime more or less follows variations of that pattern - with a few changes and upgrades of course; the rival characters have gotten more good-looking over the years (Sasuke and Accelerator are for all intents and purposes bishounen).
In Dragon Ball Z, with Goku and Vegeta, it's kinda the other way around. Vegeta is the hot-head who recognizes that Goku is better than him and desires to surpass him, making them rivals.
But, hey, you didn't watch it, so whatever.
They're both great, but I'd have to go with Batman. Superman's great and all, but his tales tend to be less fascinating.
Superman needed to be born on an alien world and sent to a world where his unique physiology would grant him powers.
Batman doesn't need powers.
No contest.
Batman doesn't need powers.
No contest.
So you pick the circumstances in which Superman will have the advantage ...TheDrunkNinja said:
Actually even if they meet on the street, assuming Bats is in costume, Bats is more likely than not to have a piece of kryptonite with him - yes he is just that prepared; and given his opinion on Superman,
the probability is definitely higher than say him carrying around counters for other superheroes.
The point I'm making is you cannot hold Batman's "crazy prepared" characteristic against him, it's literally part of the character. The man "covers every angle", regardless if it's investigation / research or combat preparation. That's Batman in a nut shell. It's not romanticization when it's a defined as an essential quality of the character.
The best chance you have in beating Bats is when literally you first meet him and he when first learns about you, as his effectiveness depends on research and preparation. If you let him get away in one piece from "first contact", your subsequent fights with him are going to be a hell load tougher.
Naruto's plot lines are kind of a mess IMO. The writer flip-flops a lot on things. He initially portrays Naruto as the underdog, but over the span of the series he backtrack on that. Due to his history and heritage, Naruto was never much of an underdog to begin with and by no means can be considered one now. Sasuke on the other hand has a metric ton of shit stacks against him just about every damn step of the way.TheDrunkNinja said:Hmmm... I suppose Vegeta would be closer to Goku's rival. The interesting thing that I notice in those animes is that the lead in question is rivals with those kind of characters because they recognize that they're better than them and desire to excel beyond them. Especially Naruto and Sasuke, as Naruto always felt inadequate to Sasuke, which was also a quality of his hot-headed nature.deadish said:Might be a little late to say this, but I never really seriously watch DragonBall.
That said, my impression of things is, DragonBall basically set the standard for shounen manga/anime. The idealistic and naive lead (Goku) vs the cynical rival (Vegata; or what his name is) - at least I think vegata is the cynical rival, as I said I never watch much, so it's mostly assumption.
Every shounen manga/anime more or less follows variations of that pattern - with a few changes and upgrades of course; the rival characters have gotten more good-looking over the years (Sasuke and Accelerator are for all intents and purposes bishounen).
In Dragon Ball Z, with Goku and Vegeta, it's kinda the other way around. Vegeta is the hot-head who recognizes that Goku is better than him and desires to surpass him, making them rivals.
But, hey, you didn't watch it, so whatever.
About DB, sorry to say, all my info comes from 3rd party summaries I read here and there. So it's kind of incomplete and inaccurate.
So much for those "No Vs Threads" eh?
Superman is Achilles only minus the ego and substituted those so-called "country/mid-western values" (good intentions and honesty, however you want to romanticize it). Nothing else to say there.
Batman is a rich man with something of a guilty conscience complex: He has everything he could ever want but his parents, so he wields his considerable wealth and influence to fight crime.
He benefits the people directly and acts above authority; so it's like two power fantasies in one.
Batman wins there in my book, simple because his premise is more interesting.
Superman is Achilles only minus the ego and substituted those so-called "country/mid-western values" (good intentions and honesty, however you want to romanticize it). Nothing else to say there.
Batman is a rich man with something of a guilty conscience complex: He has everything he could ever want but his parents, so he wields his considerable wealth and influence to fight crime.
He benefits the people directly and acts above authority; so it's like two power fantasies in one.
Batman wins there in my book, simple because his premise is more interesting.
I refer you all to "The Dark Knight Returns"
(I do not care that it isn't considered cannon)
Batman is about to kill Superman and "dies" of a heart attack"
(I do not care that it isn't considered cannon)
Batman is about to kill Superman and "dies" of a heart attack"
Old bats prepares for everything. Sups might not be a threat now, but it doesn't mean he never will be.TheKasp said:
As for "Getting a truck thrown at supersonic speed against your head", it would have to be a surprise attack for that to work - you can always just blow the truck up midair. [1] Batman can play at that too. Just sniper Sups in the back with a kryptonite tip arrow/bullet - I know he doesn't use guns, but it's Sups, he could make an exception.
As for human limits, who said Batman is limited to using only his biological body? Bats has never shied away from using state of the art technology - and hell he might even have a few magic based artifacts at his disposal somewhere in his bat cave. This is why if bats is given time to prep, all bets are off. He knows Superman's abilities and weaknesses very well - he is "The Detective" - and would have comes up with a strategy for just about everything Sups could throw at him.
And even if Bats get killed, he would probably have backup plans just for that scenario broadcasted to the rest of the league for them to execute.
In the end, as I mentioned, Superman vs Batman completely depends on the writer. Even you admit that to some extend. This is not a "hard science". There is really no point debating any sort of "vs" fights.
[1] Actually why bother with the truck? Just fly straight at him full speed, if Bats can't dodge it, he will be dead anyway.
That's all well and good, but ultimately, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, everything that you mentioned is an over-romanticization of what Batman can do. That's his peak. It's unrealistic. It's absurd.deadish said:
For Superman, an example of over-romanticizing what he can do is he flies around the earth so fast he turns back time. It's absurd. It's silly. It's an over-romaticization of his abilities.
My whole point was that Batman cannot be in the same weight-class as Sups. You said yourself that a straight-up fair fight, completely cutting loose and using all their abilities and reserves against the other is still considered giving too much advantage to Superman. I mean, just how much advantage and leeway do we need to give Bats before you or anyone will consider it a fair fight? How do you compensate for an opponent who moves so fast time practically stands still for him? The unfortunate truth is that adding all these handicaps for Bats just proves how far out of Sups league he is.