Poll: Teen Shot dead after attempting to mug man

AzrealMaximillion

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Fagotto said:
AzrealMaximillion said:
Fagotto said:
And why the hell does he have a laser sight on his gun? The laser sight really serves no purpose in self defence. He also didn't need to shoot 8 freaking times. He was punched in the face, and the first thing he thinks is to shoot the kid? I'm sorry but he crossed the line by jumping to the conclusion.
Accuracy isn't important in defending oneself with a gun?

And 8 shots seems reasonable if you're dazed and it's dark. Might not be so easy to tell if you hit him unless he falls over or something.
If he was punched in the face I think that's close enough that you need a laser sight.

Firstly, that would have to be one hell of a punch considering the mugger was 16 and the jogger is 28 and wanting to go into the military.

Secondly, I hardly beleive that there is any reason for anyone to need a laser sight on their gun for self defence. Laser sights aren't for close quarters shooting like that. Hell, the mugger was killed at pretty much point blank range.

Seriously 8 shots is excessive no matter how you put it.
The mugger who died was 18. The one who ran off was 16. And are you calling Baker a liar? Saying you know better about what happened?

Oh, so you're saying that he should have removed the laser sight that was already on his gun because the guy he encountered was right next to him? Or that he should have looked into the future and not put it on since the mugger was going to be right next to him? You haven't even made a case for what is so awful about a laser sight. Oh no, more accuracy! How unfair, more bullets should go whizzing off to hit something else behind the mugger.

No, 8 shots is not excessive unless he could tell that he'd already shot enough. What if he missed all 8 of them? Can you see well enough in the dark to tell how many hit the guy before he falls over?
Your not going to convince me that a laser sight on a gun is reasonable. Not even standard police carry guns with laser sights. I'm not saying that laser sights are aweful, I'm saying that it's not necessary, kind of like jogging around at midnight with a gun. You wanna be safe, pick a better time to jog. Ansd you seem to be getting mad that I keep calling 8 shots excessive. It is. There's no arguement there. If a police officer shot someone 8 times do you know how fast they'd be srutinized for using excessive force? Baker is lucky that the 4 shots that missed the 18 year old robber didn't hit anyone else. Those were 4 potential stary bullets. 4 lives could've been lost because Baker overreacted. He got punched, not threatened, punched, one time. He wasn't jumped, hell, the other mugger didn't even do anything, Baker was punched once and his reaction is to whip out the Colt .45 and squeeze 8 shots out as quickly as possible? That's excessive overeaction. He could've whipped out the gun and told them to fuck off, if they didn't leave then plugging them wouldn't seem so bad here, but this guy who wants to be in the army gets punched once by a teenager and puts 4 in the kid's chest. It's sad that you keep defending the fact the 8 shots isn't a bit much. It's one thing to defend yourself, it's another to use the what's supposed to be your last resort almost instantly.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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Fagotto said:
TriggerOnly said:
No and this is why.....

1 you go jogging affter midnight with a gun

2 you get hit ONE time in the face

3 the action you take is to SHOOT the person not RUN or THREATEN with the gun

I say bs he wanted to get attacked he wanted it to end that way, and i get the feeling his ether regreating it (dought it) or his loving it....
1. What is the problem with that? He might just want to jog after midnight. If he does so taking a gun along is the smart thing to do. Some people like to jog late. I would if I felt safe doing so.

2. Oh, so how many times did he need to get hit by some random thug before it was okay to retaliate?

3. Yes, threaten when the guy is RIGHT next to you. He will definitely not try to take it away or anything. And run when you're dazed, you'll be sure to make it away. Don't worry the other guy might not have his own gun or anything, and he certainly isn't faster than you.

I say it's BS that you think he wanted to be attacked. That is utterly absurd. Yes, he wanted some people to randomly mug him just so he could kill someone. Totally all about bloodlust. Wanted to risk his life to some muggers just so he could kill one. Makes perfect sense.
Yeah, agreed with you there.

I still find that 8 shots is excessive though.
 

TriggerOnly

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macfluffers said:
TriggerOnly said:
No and this is why.....

1 you go jogging affter midnight with a gun

2 you get hit ONE time in the face

3 the action you take is to SHOOT the person not RUN or THREATEN with the gun

I say bs he wanted to get attacked he wanted it to end that way, and i get the feeling his ether regreating it (dought it) or his loving it....
Maybe it was poor judgement on his part, but when you think about it, the worst you're accusing him of is vigilantism. Since he didn't provoke the attack, no one can say that he was trying to entrap the muggers...

By the way, I think it's bad to make such a judgement of his character. You don't know what was going through his mind when he drew and used his weapon.
lets look at this man

this man is a jogger so the chance of out running is pritty good i would say

now he pulled a gun out... think about that he PULLED it out he had time to get to it take safty off. So why not threaten? why not put out a warning shot if your feeling or cowboy...

the fact is we can only asume we can only judge that is why we are all here talking that is what the queston is about is he right.....

given this mans choices going out affter dark,late, with a modifed gun..

now i dont care about laws.. laws are broken and can bend.. i care about what i think is right and what i think is wrong... to me this man understood what he was doing...

legal murder mate.
 

Shade184

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Girl With One Eye said:
Sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of people here. It was just a couple of kids and the guy shot him eight times. He could have fired a warning shot, I mean hes clearly capable of handling himself if hes applying for the military and keeps fit. The kid had his whole life to turn around, but now he won't get that chance. People who do bad things can change, and I don't think it was necessary to shot him eight times so he was sure he would be dead.
First, "warning shot" is a load of crap. This guy says it better than I can: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns

Second, have you ever fired a gun before? If you have, you'll know just how easy it is to fire off the whole clip in rapid succession, regardless of how much self control you think you have. Eight shots is nothing when you're scared witless and having the shit kicked out of you like this guy was.
 

madmatt

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muffincakes said:
Doctor Glocktor said:
madmatt said:
8 shots isn't self defence.
Also, I don't think being mugged qualifies as "reasonable" belief he would die - and risking killing someone over valuables is generally not seen as proportionate or necessary. Not when he saw no weapon (sorry about the double negative).
So I would say he was wrong. And would hope he would be put in jail if it happened in here in the UK - which he probably would. It isn't like he shot to miss as a warning and accidently killed them - he shot to kill.
It is understandable, but I don't think you should be allowed to do that kind of thing.
The guy came out of nowhere with a buddy in the middle of the night, punched him in the face; without any demands, no words saying that he was after his money.

It was more than reasonable.
And don't forget, at least for those of us who actually read the article, after being punched in the face he couldn't see straight. Anybody with a brain can understand that he shot eight times because he could hardly see and had no idea if he hit the guy or not, or if they were doing anything in return.

It's sad when the article is right there and people still try to make stuff up about how things happened.

I did read it thank you. Please don't troll. He shot 8 times to kill someone clearly going for his valuables. He could have fired a warning shot. He could have ran. He had choices - and yes he would be afraid but he didn't know if they were armed or not but pulled his weapon first escalating it and making him the one who made it life or death. Is it understandable? Yes. But should killing someone with intent be something you get away with no repurcussions? No.
Also it doesn't say he could hardly see - "blurred vision" is what it says, which is in his interests to play up - that could mean anything from seeing nothing to a merest haze. It's sad when the article is right there and people still try to make stuff up about how things happened.
 

CJ1145

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Jan 6, 2009
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AzrealMaximillion said:
You would think that the mugger would've pulled out a waepon if he had one. And blurry vision or not he was punched in the face, not threatened with a knife or gun. This 28 year military hopeful should be able to take down a 16 kid.
This was at night, in case you've forgotten. It's hard enough to identify a person's age when they're trying to beat the shit out of you, but at night it becomes pretty much impossible. And in the defender's mind, age really doesn't matter. People don't think reasonably when they're being attacked, they go for the biggest ordnance they have because they're not looking for a fight, they're looking to kill what's attacking them. It's basic survival instinct.

So you're saying that people who panic and use excessive force to defend themselves should just be immune to crime? I'm sorry but this is excatly why they train police officers with guns the way they do. So that they don't panic. 4 shots hit the mugger. The other 4 shots could have become stray bullets that killed an innocent person in their home. Maybe they should train people who apply for concealed weapoons liscences. Killing should be a last resort even if the other person threatens you.
Wow, there are typos strewn about this thing like tasteless decoration. How fast did you type this man? But for the topic at hand, it is not excessive so much as a natural and fairly obvious reaction. I'm not against the idea of training these people, but he shouldn't be punished for using his gun like he is supposed to--self defense.

But the article never mentioned him aiming at the other kid. In fact the article stated that the other kid was already running as soon as the gun was shown, but saw the laser sight on his friend's chest.
I misread that part, but that actually speaks more for how slow his friend is than anything else. When you've got adrenaline pumping you move fast and hard, it's not unreasonable to believe that he'd have drawn his gun and started aiming in the amount of time it takes another person to acknowledge that gun.

It's not hard to grasp. Excessive shots were used, end of story. The family is most likely going to win their civil suit based on how quickly this guy got in and out of court. It's almost like there wasn't much of an investigation.
What's to investigate? The boy was a criminal the moment he attacked the other man. If he didn't expect the man to defend himself he was stupid. As I believe someone else commented on, even trained soldiers will use excessive force if given an automatic weapon; it's not something that can be taken out of our programming. Therefore I don't see why this guy is punished.
 

macfluffers

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Sep 30, 2010
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TriggerOnly said:
lets look at this man

this man is a jogger so the chance of out running is pritty good i would say

now he pulled a gun out... think about that he PULLED it out he had time to get to it take safty off. So why not threaten? why not put out a warning shot if your feeling or cowboy...

the fact is we can only asume we can only judge that is why we are all here talking that is what the queston is about is he right.....

given this mans choices going out affter dark,late, with a modifed gun..

now i dont care about laws.. laws are broken and can bend.. i care about what i think is right and what i think is wrong... to me this man understood what he was doing...

legal murder mate.
With all due respect, it seems you don't know very much about firearm handling. Turning off a safety is very easy and quick. It's deliberate and cannot be done by accident, but doesn't take a long time. Also, warning shots makes sense if someone dangerous-looking is approaching you, but if you are being attacked, you don't have that luxury.

Was his gun modified? I didn't see anything about that in the article...

To be honest, I think it's a pretty big jump to say that he was hoping to be mugged.
 

Warachia

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Aug 11, 2009
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Girl With One Eye said:
Sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of people here. It was just a couple of kids and the guy shot him eight times. He could have fired a warning shot, I mean hes clearly capable of handling himself if hes applying for the military and keeps fit. The kid had his whole life to turn around, but now he won't get that chance. People who do bad things can change, and I don't think it was necessary to shot him eight times so he was sure he would be dead.
You are punched in the face by somebody at night, you can't see clearly because your vision is now blurry, and you think the guy might be armed, so what do you do? you fire and fire because you can't see, also, he only hit the guy four times out of eight, I'll agree that the number of shots was rediculous, but you don't count your shots when panicked, nor do you rely on one or to bullets to save you, and he had hollow pointed bullets, meaning he wasn't trying to kill a person and anybody shot had a much greater chance of surviving. Would you give the money up on the off chance the teens might feel sorry about this and change themselves later in life?

Also, the mugger was 18, I don't think that qualifies him as a "kid" anymore.
 

Nouw

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Mar 18, 2009
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Death isn't fair, he should have shot some where else that would merely temporarily disable him.

Sure it's self-defense but he didn't deserve to die.
 

TriggerOnly

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Oct 18, 2010
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Fagotto said:
TriggerOnly said:
No and this is why.....

1 you go jogging affter midnight with a gun

2 you get hit ONE time in the face

3 the action you take is to SHOOT the person not RUN or THREATEN with the gun

I say bs he wanted to get attacked he wanted it to end that way, and i get the feeling his ether regreating it (dought it) or his loving it....
1. What is the problem with that? He might just want to jog after midnight. If he does so taking a gun along is the smart thing to do. Some people like to jog late. I would if I felt safe doing so.

2. Oh, so how many times did he need to get hit by some random thug before it was okay to retaliate?

3. Yes, threaten when the guy is RIGHT next to you. He will definitely not try to take it away or anything. And run when you're dazed, you'll be sure to make it away. Don't worry the other guy might not have his own gun or anything, and he certainly isn't faster than you.

I say it's BS that you think he wanted to be attacked. That is utterly absurd. Yes, he wanted some people to randomly mug him just so he could kill someone. Totally all about bloodlust. Wanted to risk his life to some muggers just so he could kill one. Makes perfect sense.
you talk like HIS the victiom but HIS not the man that WAS shot. that man is the victiom

see if you do make the CHOICE to go out late with a gun if YOU the one with the gun is makeing the CHOICE to be at risk... cant you see that if you take a gun round with you, you are making a choice to use that if the time comes... this means if somthing happens some one is going to die ether you or the attacker.. he is just as mutch to blame as the muggers it was a dumb move on EVERY person that was there... now i personly belive he wanted this to happen but that is my opinon how ever i STRONGly feel that he is as mutch to blame if not more...
 

macfluffers

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@ TriggerOnly: Dude, there's no evidence that he wanted to be attacked. WHO WANTS TO BE MUGGED? What sane person thinks, "Hey, tonight is a good night to get mugged and shoot my assailant in self-defense. Yeah!"
 

Vern

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Sep 19, 2008
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Completely in the right in the situation. He was attacked, hit, disoriented, and fired upon his attacker. Anyone who argues the 'warning shot' or 'eight discharges is excessive' doesn't know the first thing about defensive shooting. First off, if the attacker does have a firearm, all a warning shot tells them is that they need to shoot you as soon as possible. Yes it might scare them off, but it can also scare them into pulling their own weapon when they might not have done so.

Secondly, firing one or two shots, you can't guarantee your first shot will hit, or hit in a place to incapacitate the target. Even police forces (although I would argue they kill far more people in situations where lethal force isn't warranted as opposed to law-abiding CCW holders) use this idea, which is why you have perpetrators shot multiple times. You shoot to take down the target, if you're forced to the point where you have to use lethal force, you don't want to just wound the target. If you're frightened to the point where you even have to consider using the gun, then a legitimate threat has been presented and you have to incapacitate or eliminate the threat. This is done by firing at center mass, because the torso is the largest target on a person and in a panic situation ensures the best chance to hit, and you fire as many rounds as needed to ensure the attacker isn't a threat.

And really, the man was approached by two people at night, he didn't know they were teenagers at the time so don't give me that "Oh but they could've changed" he didn't know they were kids doing some dumb shit. He didn't know their life story, and didn't know their motive until one of them punched him in the face and knocked him to the ground. He didn't have a chance to ask them if they meant to severely beat or kill him, if they just wanted money, or if they were just having a larf with a bit of the old ultra violence by decking him in the head for no reason. He had a means to defend himself against two attackers, and he had no idea if they were armed or not. Add in the fact that there were two attackers, and odds are even if they weren't armed chances are good he wouldn't have fared well in any ensuing fight against two people.

Bottom line: He was assaulted by two people, and he used his right to self defense. His family discussing possible litigation is sick, maybe if they would've raised the child correctly and taught him not to attack and rob people he wouldn't be dead.
 

Negatempest

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May 10, 2008
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All i'm going to say is that, when you hit in the face and you have blurry vision (meaning you can't see very clearly) I would have taken the same amount of shots or emptied the clip. Sure it had a laser sight, but you want to make sure that one of those bullets hits OR the gun will get taken away from you and than you get killed. Could you imagine if he only fired twice and not a single shot was serious wound and the mugger was able to take the gun away before he fired again. Guess who would be dead than?

Edit: Why are people arguing against a Civilian defending his own life from a potential threat? Should he have pointed a gun as a warning to an assailant who could have been a professional or experienced mugger, killer or psychopath? Would the individual, in his blurry vision and a disoriented state have the time to stare at the assailant and think "Oh, he is just a teenager, maybe if I yell he will go away."? Shame on every single one of you who believe you have some 6th sense to tell if an assault like this was over-kill. Any and every action taken had to be withing split seconds, not minutes. You do not have the luxury of time when "literally" the 1st punch is thrown, especially by surprise and complete strangers.
 

Gahars

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If you attack someone late at night with the full intent of robbing them, you pretty much deserve whatever they throw back in defense.

I hate to sound so heartless, but there it is.
 

Steam Colossus

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Aug 17, 2010
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He didn't diserve to die but in this situation the banker was fighting for his life, no blame should be put on him.