Poll: Teen Shot dead after attempting to mug man
- Thread starter RamirezDoEverything
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I don't think it was a revolver, from most I've read here this gun was 7+1, revolvers don't have +1, more likely they have 6 or 8 rounds.Lord Kloo said:
Maybe the running at night was due to not having time during the day? or because he's a night raven and likes running in the dark?
it didn't say anything about where the shots landed and he most likely just unloaded everything he had, he didn't know they were unarmed, and it's easy to knock someone out cold with only your hands, especially when theres two of you and one of him. I agree it's kinda fishy with the money but maybe he didn't have time to bring it home or just hadn't gotten around to it? He didn't try to kill the mugger, he just shot at him with "blurred vision" that indicates he didn't see what he was doing properly, I'd like you getting in his shoes and ending up in a life-death situation that in hindsight doesn't sound as bad but in your eyes it is, then there will be that person, like you were when posting this, that will make no sense to you or most others.
This guy is not part of the military, he was getting in shape to prepare for training and thus does not necessarily have any experience with guns other than that licence
mostly agree with you there, but seeing as part of the article implies a statement from the 16 year old I don't think this is one of the times that he is not just defending himselfarchvile93 said:
Tell me, how do you know the teen was going to stop with just the punch to the face and the muggery? How do you know that they weren't going to carry on the assault and stomp his head into the ground enough to do some major damage?Jonabob87 said:
I'll answer for you... You don't, neither did he. He got hit at the back of the head by someone and was disorientated by the hit. He turned around and fired at the attacker in fear of his own life, he was so disorientated that he managed to miss 4 out of 8 shots at close range. At that point he had no way of knowing who they were, how old they were or even how many of them they were.
Not only that, when your in that kind of situation, you don't think rationally. You instincts for survival kick in, losing composure and logical thought and simple acting to survive. He didn't pull out the gun, aim, then fire. No he pulled out the gun and fired randomly due to the state of mind he was in thanks to the adrenaline. When the adrenaline had worn off and he was able to think rationally, he knew what he had done was terrible, he phoned the police and stayed with the 18 year old hoping he didn't die.
He defended himself and sadly a young lad died in the process. I don't like that a young lad died and I only wish things had turned out differently however I can't place blame on this Baker fellow.
I believe Baker was completely in his rights in everything he did. Lets take this scenario apart shall we:
While jogging at night(completely within his rights as a citizen of a free country) he was assaulted unprovoked by 2 people, and he hadn't the knowledge of age (not that this matters much) or if they were armed.
In Depth: I have been "jumped" before by two people, and while under their assault i remember just flashes of flesh. I don't remember pain or even if i did anything in retaliation to their strikes, but according to the people i was with at the time i threw about three or so good punches before they backed off. My pulse was high, and my heart was pounding i was terrified of what was happening but somehow i choose to stand my ground, and afterwards my body was so full of adrenaline that as i was walking away (and for the next 10 minutes or so) my body was trembling and very shaky, even my knees felt weak and wobbly as the rush receded. so i have a little understanding in how this felt to be thrust into a situation of unknown danger.
This man was knocked loopy, and in his panic he drew his legally allowed concealed weapon and fired 8 shots, 4 striking his assailant and killing him.
In Depth: As others have said they made no demands upon approaching and just started assaulting him, and if you are jogging with a pistol on you i'd assume that you know bad things can happen so the moment you are struck you assume the worst. Assuming the worst and most likely being on the ground or at least off balanced suddenly your mind goes numb from high adrenaline and the gun is in your hands and your fight or flight response kick in you pull the trigger.
First off because of the unknown values involved i would say lethal force was alright to use, and to those who say that 8 shots are excessive (Remember only 4 hit) you must understand a fact or two.
-A military assault rifle, lets use the M4 Carbine has a standard clip of 30 rounds with a rate of fire between 700-950 rounds per/min (we'll use 700) that makes a standard clip on full auto empty in about 2.5 seconds (or sooner if you rap up the rounds per/minute) so an eight bullet semi auto .45 caliber pistol should empty in about 3 seconds. Now to add on that they aren't trying to be ammo conservative he is trying to survive a hostile situation and so the faster he pulls the trigger the safer he is.
- All Military and police will always always tell you to aim for the center (chest) as it is the largest target while providing still a serious target that the person getting shot normally won't ignore the damage caused. I don't believe that the article said where the scumbag was shot, however with only 50% accuracy, from adrenaline rush shaking, a disorienting strike to the skull and night time distorting vision even missing the chest is possible.
In his panicked state he probably assumed he only pulled the trigger once so no way it was excessive.
Now to the people who say use non lethal method or other solutions lets see
Warning shot/exposing the weapon - due to the close proximity, and the fact they were most likely still punching him a warning would be a stupid idea as the main way for a warning shot is to point the gun above the head and fire, but if you are unstable,shaky,panicked or afraid enough to miss 4 shots in close combat, you probably don't have the ability to hold the gun in such a way, it would easily be wrestled from your grasp because they don't want to get shot, but because you didn't immediately point it at them they can rob you plus avoid getting shot simply by stripping this off of you even if you warned them prior.
Single Shot - Others have pointed this out some people are resistant to shots and or with adrenaline/heat of the moment or drugs can shrug off shots impact and shock feelings, and so sometimes a single shot can't bring that person down. This guy was so shaken he missed 50% of the time so it would be unsure if that would even hit, and you can't check after you fire you rely on the visual cue of them dropping to show impact.
Extremity Shot - "Just Shoot him in the leg" is ridiculous the leg is full of arteries as is everywhere on the body, and no matter where you shoot you run the risk of shock killing them. as others have said every time you have that gun aimed at something and you pull the trigger you better be prepared cause 90% of the time it will kill or cause permanent damage. So when he ran to call emergency services the mugger would bleed out all over the location.
Non Lethal - Civilian pepper spray is weak, and so common that some people can actually be immune to the burn. Tazers are cumbersome and can't be quickly deployed and require you to be prepared to use them before they start an assault, and as with stun guns and pepper spray you aren't guaranteed a stopping effect from using these.
People can call him dodgy or used excessive force but the fact that he didn't shoot the second assailant and called emergency service and returned and waited with the older mugger for them to arrive, that right there shows a man who is sorry for what he did even though he doesn't need to be.
and on the side it says that the muggers parents are filing a civil suite against him is laughable, all he has to do is show unprovoked assault and battery, and if he wants to, accuse the dead punk for graffiti for bleeding all over a public area. Then he should turn around and counter sue the parents for littering, simply for giving birth to a piece of trash like their son.
While jogging at night(completely within his rights as a citizen of a free country) he was assaulted unprovoked by 2 people, and he hadn't the knowledge of age (not that this matters much) or if they were armed.
In Depth: I have been "jumped" before by two people, and while under their assault i remember just flashes of flesh. I don't remember pain or even if i did anything in retaliation to their strikes, but according to the people i was with at the time i threw about three or so good punches before they backed off. My pulse was high, and my heart was pounding i was terrified of what was happening but somehow i choose to stand my ground, and afterwards my body was so full of adrenaline that as i was walking away (and for the next 10 minutes or so) my body was trembling and very shaky, even my knees felt weak and wobbly as the rush receded. so i have a little understanding in how this felt to be thrust into a situation of unknown danger.
This man was knocked loopy, and in his panic he drew his legally allowed concealed weapon and fired 8 shots, 4 striking his assailant and killing him.
In Depth: As others have said they made no demands upon approaching and just started assaulting him, and if you are jogging with a pistol on you i'd assume that you know bad things can happen so the moment you are struck you assume the worst. Assuming the worst and most likely being on the ground or at least off balanced suddenly your mind goes numb from high adrenaline and the gun is in your hands and your fight or flight response kick in you pull the trigger.
First off because of the unknown values involved i would say lethal force was alright to use, and to those who say that 8 shots are excessive (Remember only 4 hit) you must understand a fact or two.
-A military assault rifle, lets use the M4 Carbine has a standard clip of 30 rounds with a rate of fire between 700-950 rounds per/min (we'll use 700) that makes a standard clip on full auto empty in about 2.5 seconds (or sooner if you rap up the rounds per/minute) so an eight bullet semi auto .45 caliber pistol should empty in about 3 seconds. Now to add on that they aren't trying to be ammo conservative he is trying to survive a hostile situation and so the faster he pulls the trigger the safer he is.
- All Military and police will always always tell you to aim for the center (chest) as it is the largest target while providing still a serious target that the person getting shot normally won't ignore the damage caused. I don't believe that the article said where the scumbag was shot, however with only 50% accuracy, from adrenaline rush shaking, a disorienting strike to the skull and night time distorting vision even missing the chest is possible.
In his panicked state he probably assumed he only pulled the trigger once so no way it was excessive.
Now to the people who say use non lethal method or other solutions lets see
Warning shot/exposing the weapon - due to the close proximity, and the fact they were most likely still punching him a warning would be a stupid idea as the main way for a warning shot is to point the gun above the head and fire, but if you are unstable,shaky,panicked or afraid enough to miss 4 shots in close combat, you probably don't have the ability to hold the gun in such a way, it would easily be wrestled from your grasp because they don't want to get shot, but because you didn't immediately point it at them they can rob you plus avoid getting shot simply by stripping this off of you even if you warned them prior.
Single Shot - Others have pointed this out some people are resistant to shots and or with adrenaline/heat of the moment or drugs can shrug off shots impact and shock feelings, and so sometimes a single shot can't bring that person down. This guy was so shaken he missed 50% of the time so it would be unsure if that would even hit, and you can't check after you fire you rely on the visual cue of them dropping to show impact.
Extremity Shot - "Just Shoot him in the leg" is ridiculous the leg is full of arteries as is everywhere on the body, and no matter where you shoot you run the risk of shock killing them. as others have said every time you have that gun aimed at something and you pull the trigger you better be prepared cause 90% of the time it will kill or cause permanent damage. So when he ran to call emergency services the mugger would bleed out all over the location.
Non Lethal - Civilian pepper spray is weak, and so common that some people can actually be immune to the burn. Tazers are cumbersome and can't be quickly deployed and require you to be prepared to use them before they start an assault, and as with stun guns and pepper spray you aren't guaranteed a stopping effect from using these.
People can call him dodgy or used excessive force but the fact that he didn't shoot the second assailant and called emergency service and returned and waited with the older mugger for them to arrive, that right there shows a man who is sorry for what he did even though he doesn't need to be.
and on the side it says that the muggers parents are filing a civil suite against him is laughable, all he has to do is show unprovoked assault and battery, and if he wants to, accuse the dead punk for graffiti for bleeding all over a public area. Then he should turn around and counter sue the parents for littering, simply for giving birth to a piece of trash like their son.
Such a long post and so wrong.ragethebeast said:
A- Bringing up an M4 is a bit random, if i walked round with an M4 (Assuming i didnt get arrested) i very much doubt id be mugged.
B- "Stun guns and tasers dont work" BULLSHIT ive been tasered and i hit the floor like a fish out of water, and im not exactly a lightweight.
C- There was no need to fire, he over reacted. Im sure they would of backed off if he pull out his gun and waved it around, like i said in an earlier post if they reached for something when he did that, then fired, well fair enough, but he had no reason to assume they had any kind of weapon. In fact it would of been unlikely, if someone tried to mug someone they use what the have, they have a knife they put it against the victims throat, they have a gun they'd show it, but since they just hit him then its unlikely they WERE armed.
Plus why should we think "Yep, they just wanted his money and his iphone, shoot the bastards" really? does that really justify death?
Here's an age old question used in modern times, if a boy steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, does he deserve to be shot? according to these posts, it seems so.
- from the article.
You can shoot someone eight times in self-defence because the 'instant death bullet' thing is a fictional trope. Unless it's a perfect hit to the head or heart, a single shot is unlikely to prevent someone from being a clear and present danger for the immediate time being. One shot will often kill someone of course; the problem is how long it takes. Not to mention accuracy goes to hell in a heated situation, as evidenced by the fact that the pistol had a laser sight and he STILL missed half his shots at point blank range. Then again, the blurred vision may have had something to do with it as well.
After reading the article, my feelings are a little conflicted. On the one hand the man shot the teenager before gaining confirmation whether or not they were carrying a potentially deadly weapon. On the other hand he was attacked first by surprise, was apparently suffering from blurred vision rendering him unable to make the confirmation, and by extension had neither the time or means of making a more accurate assessment of the current threat. For all he knew, he might have been about to be murdered.
Given the circumstances I think the man acted as reasonably as he could. I can't say I'm happy about the final outcome, though.
Oh, Hell yeah, dudes deserved to die, badly. I got mugged once, and trust me, if I'd had a weapon, those mother fuckers would have been pulp. I still want those assholes dead. Never mug anyone. It's wrong, and if you get killed in the process, good.
Pulling out the gun, loudly announcing "I have a weapon. Back off" would have been "proper" behaviour. Shooting (at) the kid eight times (hitting him four times) with hollow points? That's bloody vindictive! Literally.
My gut feeling is "he was justified in removing a threat against himself, but his actions were over the line".
Too bad about the kid, but this unfortunate event hints at a fact: the one you mug -could- be armed, and therefore you should not do it.
My gut feeling is "he was justified in removing a threat against himself, but his actions were over the line".
Too bad about the kid, but this unfortunate event hints at a fact: the one you mug -could- be armed, and therefore you should not do it.
A - I was bringing up in comparison to show people how fast ammo vanishes its not like he fired those 8 shots over a minute in length it was in a single moment of feargoldendriger said:
B- I've been tazed also, it hurt but i didn't fall to the ground crying, not to mention adrenaline fills your body with so much endorphins and bio-pain suppressants its possible to suffer many types of wounds/attacks before realizing what had happened.
C- without 100% knowing the way things played out, we can only assume the situation...and it comes in two types, one is they are still assaulting him, and such a warning or waving the pistol is out of the question...pressed that close and in such a weak state it would be difficult not to get stripped of a weapon you produced weakly. In Karate, in self defense classes and such they say treat an unknown assailant as if he aims to take your life, always assume the worst if they just walked up and punched you.
Also its not true when i was a senior in high school our biggest jock got mugged, and the mugger started out with a punch and only when he got up to fight did the mugger produce a weapon just because a person has a weapon doesn't mean they have to use it... kinda like having a trump card. Also the question you should really be answering is why should we care if a degenerate and useless member of society gets plugged for a valid reason, senseless killing isn't exactly correct but in this sense this guy had full reason to do so. It took that mugger 18 years and another person to decide to mug someone, if it takes you 18 years to learn not to hurt the useful people in society then a self defense kill was too good for such a waste of oxygen and flesh.
and to answer your little quandary the thing is a boy stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving family is, no not shot he didn't hurt anyone, but if he beat the shop clerk then yes he does. However i believe in Hammurabi's code, which the penalty for stealing was losing a hand.
Actually, if you've been trained with a handgun, they teach you to empty the magazine into people. Single bullets don't kill people very easily, and accuracy with a handgun in a hectic environment is bloody awful. So, you're told that if you're going to shoot someone, you might as well shoot them to hell. It's not overkill unless he reloaded.Withall said:
Shooting in self-defense is shooting to kill. ALL shooting is shooting to kill. There is no other way to shoot.Alexander Sverchkov said:
How do you know the muggers would be scared and run away? If it were a hardened mugger, not an amateur, then he would have his own gun and he wouldn't have run, he would have shot back.
What evidence you have that he was buying drugs?
That's total bullshit right there.goldendriger said:
So what, if you're alone at night and one of two people punch you in the head with the intent to mug you, you're gonna look for a fair fight or say to yourself "Hurr...well he only punched me so I guess it wouldn't be fair to use everything in my means to defend myself"?
What he is saying is that you don't know whether or not the other two are armed. They have just punched you and attempted to mug you, you aren't going to be taking risks such as giving them time to react. And you aren't going to think about all this as you are being mugged, they attacked, he had the right to defend himself through whatever means necessary.Jonabob87 said:
And another thing on the not showing weapons, if you don't have to, you won't, it means you have a hidden claw in case things get ugly. This works both ways, and the knowledge that if you kiss and don't kill the guy with the first shot is more than enough convincing to take as many as your clip will allow.