Poll: The Big bang theory, Do you think its true?

Maze1125

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Jinx_Dragon said:
1) Just saying 'it is statistics' is no where near science
Yes it is.
The entirety of fluid dynamics is based on statistics. There's even a sub-section of physics called "statistical mechanics".

The fact that Andromeda is moving towards us is perfectly within the bounds that the Big Bang gives us.
Yes, if an galaxy on the other side of the universe was moving towards us, then we'd have a problem, because no amount of statistical analysis could explain that. But, as you said yourself, Andromeda is right next door. So it's perfectly reasonable that it would be moving slightly towards us rather than slightly away.

The idea that physics can't cope with slight deviations from the exact theoretical predictions is just absurd. Everything in science has a margin for error. In England we're taught that in school. It's hardly an inexplicable idea.
 

ethaninja

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Pararaptor said:
Well...
I doubt that there was nothing before the Big Bang, because that breaks physical law. There's a better theory I've heard which states that the universe goes in cycles: Everything is pulled into singularities which eventually merge, & electrostatic repulsion balances out the gravity & you get a Big Bang. Rinse & repeat.
Yeah I've heard of that theory also. It seems a lot more plausible then some of the other things I've heard.
 

DracoSuave

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Jinx_Dragon said:
DracoSuave said:
Saying that a collation of data is no where near science is a complete mangling of understanding what the scientific method is.
Statistics are not, in any way shape or form, science. Hell I can go out side and get ten random people, ask them a loaded question and form a statistic. Statistics are just a number, often without purpose. Ones that have not come anywhere close to explaining the fluctuation. Science needs to be accurate, the inaccuracies are what leads to new theories being proposed or else we would still be content to believe all the things we ridicule this day and age, such as the earth being the center of the universe and the likes.
Well, good thing the examination and collation of data cross many different observable objects in the cosmos isn't asking any individual their opinion, now is it?

Statitical analysis IS useful when you're dealing with a large collection of data. For example, statistical analysis of particle motion is more useful when dealing with gas law and pressure than every individual particle.

Individual outliers are not useable in a scientific analysis of a macrosystem unless said outlier disproves that macrosystem's function. A particle that does not bounce off of a container's wall doesn't disprove the gas laws that are formed by those that do. You don't need the kinetic energy of each particle in a gas to determine the gas's temperature.


As for them being part of the scientific method... you make me laugh so hard with that idea. The method deals with observing data, forming theories and trying to break said theories through experimentation. No where in the method does it say you can ignore some anomalies because you have observed a greater amount of data that fits your theory then you have data that doesn't fit. You can not ignore something that doesn't fit just because 'statistics' are on your side.
I never said to ignore outliers. But if those outliers do not break your theory, then they do not. And how the hell else do you examine tendancies in a collection of objects? Statistical analysis is the means to do so.

No a single observed anomaly is enough to rewrite a theory!
Provided the anomaly disproves the theory, or that it presents enough of an outlier that the theory cannot contain it.

No, but a knowledge of red-shift and the doppler effect is what led to the big bang theory.
Red shifts just explain an observation of the universe at the current time, it has no way to plot what changes might of happened during history, changes that likely led to the existence of Blue shift universes which do NOT fit in the current models. Just pointing out their existence is what led to the bullshit excuse of 'fluctuation happen.' Hence we have gone a complete circle, like I said we would, back to: Explain blue shift past 'fluctuations happen!'
Well, an object heading towards me does not disprove the tendancy of objects away from me to move faster away from me proportional to their distance. An outlier does not disprove the theory, nor even present evidence to the contrary.

A fundamental understanding of gas behavior can show that it is possible that with increased temperature and energy, the tendancy of objects to push on the walls of the container do not preclude that all objects must then do so. This is a rough example, but I think you can see the point.

It'll be useful to understand the -why- the Big Bang occurred, but before you set out to examine the -reasons- for an event, sometimes it's helpful to examine and prove that the event actually occurred in the first place.
And the event hasn't been proven, we have some observational data that indicates the universe is expanding but past that we have very little. We have observed what is happening now and assumed it is what has always happened. We might be right, we might not be right, but again I come back to the fact we need more information. We don't know a fraction of our universe, hell even our galaxy holds large mysteries that we need to explore. I say we need more data.
We -do- need more data. I don't dispute that.

There is, however, a burning question which the Big Bang provides an excellent answer for. If not the big bang, then why is the observable edge of the universe retreating near the speed of light at an exact distance as measured by observation, and why do all these objects at the universes edge converge on a single point in space/time when extrapolated back in time?
The question exists, yes, it has always existed and what we have observed is what we have observed. I just don't think we have observed enough. Hey, I just had a thought... what if we are moving towards a single point and not away from it? If this point has a form of gravity then things that get closer to it would move at an accelerating rate then things further away. As we are one of the further away points this would mean anything closer we observe would be moving away from us, at the same rates of acceleration we would get if we assumed we where pushed away from a center point.
That would mean space-time is inverted, and that all objects are at the edge of the universe by their own space-time perspectives.

Now -that- is some non-euclidian geometry.

Now start your experiments and observations.

There, using the basic of Hubble I have put forth a theory that also fits the observational data. Things are accelerating away from us cause they are closer to a single point in space that is pulling them towards it with a force that gets greater as they get closer. We don't have to worry about beign sucked in though, a blue shift galaxy will crash into ours before that happens... yay for end of the worlds!
Well, think it through and apply to observed phenomenon. If space-time is inverted, then how would black holes work?

Again I state it: We just don't have the means to make the sort of observations needed to prove/disprove the big bang! Hubble just observed that the galaxies we can see are moving at a set rate... that is as far as I am willing to take his observations, cause those are what where observed. To plot it back to a single point seems logical but it is billions of years of history that could of done who knows what to the shaping of the galaxy.
Perhaps. But if they can observe the edge of creation, according to the BBT, then they can observe the Big Bang in action due to the theory of relativity stating that the edge's time at the speed of light would be slowed to almost an infintessimal crawl.

Good luck with that mind. But the method exists to prove the BBT in theory.

Like wise the existence of blue shift universes are a fluctuation that needs to be explained. If something in the universe, present or in the past, could change the movement of a galaxy then it has the power to shape the universe in a way we havn't fathomed. If they exist, and blue shifts suggests something does, then who knows what changes to the model we ahve to make to account for this strange movement pattern.
Blue-shift universes have to be explained? Or do you mean galaxies?

I'm curious as to which blue-shift galaxies have been found, but yes, they -do- need some explanation, even if it's as simple as 'Bounced off another galaxy.'

The simplest conclusion is that 'Well, they were all there.' Hense why that's the one getting the most examination. Occam's Razor and all.
Occam's razor assumes we have all the knowledge at our grasp. Very likely the most obvious explanation isn't the most correct if we are missing large chunks of data. Earth being the center of the universe fir Occam's razor so well only a couple of hundred years ago too. Who knows how much ridicule we will get a few hundred years from now....

...as is this.
Actually, that was my observations on some 'scientists' who have PHDs and everything but are always willing to say whatever the company wants them to say. Others who take money from focus groups to give a 'scientific' opinion to support a political stance regardless of the reality we are facing. Even more that are just as human as the rest of us, taking a view and refusing to budge from it.

And the people without the PHDs tend to be worse....
Tis my opinion proper science should not be bribed.

Heh.
 

Jinx_Dragon

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Maze1125 said:
Jinx_Dragon said:
1) Just saying 'it is statistics' is no where near science
Yes it is.
The entirety of fluid dynamics is based on statistics. There's even a sub-section of physics called "statistical mechanics".
Ahh, good old probability. But you know probability doesn't include fluctuations either. It is dealing with multiple known forces which give a known number of different and pre-predicted outcomes. The outcomes are still formulated then we work out how much of X is going to do Y and so on. It doesn't come into play in this case, as the big bang is a 'One out of One' theory. There isn't a formula that states the big bang is only one of many possible, plotted, and observable outcomes... unless your including my 'sink hole' idea....

The fact that Andromeda is moving towards us is perfectly within the bounds that the Big Bang gives us.

Yes, if an galaxy on the other side of the universe was moving towards us, then we'd have a problem, because no amount of statistical analysis could explain that. But, as you said yourself, Andromeda is right next door. So it's perfectly reasonable that it would be moving slightly towards us rather than slightly away.
Is it? Honestly, the theory I have seen states we are moving at a outwards direction at a accelerating rate. If that is the case then NO galaxy, regardless of proximity to our own, should be able to 'over take us' by moving towards the outer limits of the universe at a faster rate. The closest we should get to that is a galaxy moving at a rate almost, or even, on par. These galaxies would show no blue shift, they would show a slight red or no shift at all. This galaxy is moving towards us, that means it is moving FASTER then us towards the 'outer shell' while being closer to towards the center... not fitting the model at all.


The idea that physics can't cope with slight deviations from the exact theoretical predictions is just absurd. Everything in science has a margin for error. In England we're taught that in school. It's hardly an inexplicable idea.
I'm not saying that it can't cope with deviations, just that science demands to formulate why deviations exist. The margin of error your taught is not in the science itself, it is the human element... the fact that we screw up. This includes making theories based on assumed data with only a splashing of observable data to back it up.
 

Maze1125

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Jinx_Dragon said:
Have you studied the mathematics of the Big Bang in depth?
No?
Then how can you claim that such galaxies aren't accounted for? Especially as Andromeda was one of the very first galaxies to have it's light-shift measured yet no other scientist seems to think it is a problem.

as the big bang is a 'One out of One' theory.
No, it isn't.
The Big Bang simply states that the overall movement of the universe is accelerating expansion.
It has absolutely no problem with there being local deviation from that overall movement.
 

Maze1125

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misterprickly said:
I think it's funny that you can use a word like "epistomologically" and yet not know what the law (or laws) of gravity is (or are).

What I am saying is that a theory remains a theory UNTIL it is proven either true or false.

Look at the "hollow earth" theory... Some scientits say it's a complete load, other say it cannot be ruled out.
Again, the word theory in science does not mean "A nice idea."
In science a theory is a detailed explanation of observed phenomena which produces it's own predictions which are then tested and found to be accurate.

Gravity is a scientific theory. Electricity is a scientific theory. The Big Bang is a scientific theory. Relativity is a scientific theory.
A hollow Earth is not a scientific theory. String Theory is, ironically, not a scientific theory. Creationism is not a scientific theory.

Get the idea yet?
 

cuddly_tomato

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mykalwane said:
cuddly_tomato said:
mykalwane said:
I agree with you on that, that is what science is for. Just as far as I have seen that if you are going to do that with the big bang theory is that it says something came out of nothing.
No it doesn't. The Big Bang theory is that the universe today is in its current form because, long ago, all of the matter and energy contained in the universe was in a single spot, which exploded. It says nothing about where it came from, and nothing about what came before.
So how did it get there then? If you can explain that I might agree with you. See the thing with that I don't get is that if that is true something had to happen for matter to come into a single point then? So far there doesn't seem to be an answer.
I don't have any explanation for it. I am not saying that the Big Bang theory is true, merely that it is the model that best fits the data we have right now. We have no data at all on what might have started it or what was going on ten minutes earlier, but it doesn't require that explanation. You don't need to explain the begining of the universe to know that it exists do you? After all, you are in it. The Big Bang deals with that and only that - the existence of the universe, and how it grew into its current shape and form. Whether it was god, some other universe imploding, or my girlfriend burning my soup to such an extent that the energy in the soup travelled back in time and superheated the universe so it had to explode.

My own data (a severely burnt tongue and having to put my soup in the fridge before it becomes edible), suggests to me that the soup theory is on the right lines.

Jinx_Dragon said:
Actually, that was my observations on some 'scientists' who have PHDs and everything but are always willing to say whatever the company wants them to say. Others who take money from focus groups to give a 'scientific' opinion to support a political stance regardless of the reality we are facing. Even more that are just as human as the rest of us, taking a view and refusing to budge from it.

And the people without the PHDs tend to be worse....
Agreed completely. Even without the examples you gave, there is an underlying feeling that science is becoming less of a tool and more of a creed. At some point during the last century, science became less about trying to discover the answers to questions and more about proving a point. This has now filtered through to the public consciousness. How often do we hear "scientists say" and "according to science"? Modern scientists have become rather like the priests of the dark ages, people will believe everything they say blindly and without question. Indeed, questioning the findings of science labels one a "heretic" to science.

And so, when people say they do not quite go along with the Big Bang, something resembling a rhetorical witch-hunt takes place, with the victim of that hunt having their entire world view burned at the stake.
 

Wandrecanada

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I think this thread needs a big dose of my favorite simplifier of astral phenomena. My go to guy for things in the sky. That's right put your hands together for:

Neil deGrasse Tyson [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson]


He has a great little book out called Death by Black Hole [http://www.amazon.com/Death-Black-Hole-Cosmic-Quandaries/dp/0393062244] and it explains all that crazy stuff about how the universe works. You'll understand why the "big bang" was unlikely to contain matter of any kind and that it was probably just an expansion of massive energy. It explains what Heat Death means for the universe and what exactly happens in a black hole.

Get it, read it, learn it, love the Neil. Awwww yeaaah.
 

Cargando

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Lullabye said:
Is gravity a property of matter or space?
With this, you have asked us an extremely tricky question. Myself? I believe it is matter that causes it. The existence of Gravitons that attract matter to themselves seems like a good idea to me.
 

lwm3398

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Yeah. I just see no way it could just explode, expand, whatever- on it's own, so I just like to believe some universal-power (Read: God) just started it. I mean, look how unlikely Earth being inhabitable, and us evolving into, well, us is. So, yeah, universal-power did it.
 

ben---neb

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Lullabye said:
ben---neb said:
Lullabye said:
ben---neb said:
*Waves Creation flag around*

*Ducks and waits for the missiles*
Dont worry, we all know that the flying spaghetti monster created all.
SNIP
That's not an argument. You simply stating things that can't be proven as fact. Give a logical explaination and I'll concede.also, if "god" is beyond understanding, then how do you know its any of those things? I just love the contradictory, it's like your ruining your own "argument". Feel free to believe though, just be a good person and you should be well off enough.
To answer your points in reverse order:

I'm afraid you're last point is compeletly wrong. The thing about Christianity (the unique aspect when compared to all other religions) is that being a 'good person' isn't enough. Doing good works will never get someone into Heaven. Why? Because to deserve a place in Heaven we would have to keep every single one of God's commandments and never sin, ever. No man has ever done that (except Jesus and he was both God and man), no one, everyone deserves to go to Hell. My good works could never repay the debt I owe God. It is by God's grace that we are saved, Jesus died on the cross as a sinless man and took away God's wrath and sent away our sin. But only for those that repent, turn to God and beg forgiveness. That is how we are saved, not by works least any man should boast.

The second point you raised is fair enough, I should have clarified my point further. God is unknowable in the sense that no man can fully know him. God has revealed himself to us in the Bible so we know the basics as it were. But to completely understand the full nature of God is impossible for our weak human minds.

And for your first point it is entirely logical to me. I'm sure you know what an axiom is (but if you don't: axiom (logic) a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident) My axiom is that God exists, the universe would not make sense unless he does, God has revealed himself to me (not in a blinding flash of light but over many years). Following on from that it is perfectly logical to take God's word (The Bible) as being 100% true and therefore above and beyond what man has come up with (Big Bang) God beats man anyday in my logic system.

However, your axiom is that God does not exist. Therefore my logic to you seems illogical just as your logic to me seems illogical. My axiom is never going to change because i have God's promise that it will not. Your axiom can change, and might, but if it does so it will only be because God has revealed himself to you.
 

Lullabye

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ben---neb said:
To answer your points in reverse order:

I'm afraid you're last point is compeletly wrong. The thing about Christianity (the unique aspect when compared to all other religions) is that being a 'good person' isn't enough. Doing good works will never get someone into Heaven. Why? Because to deserve a place in Heaven we would have to keep every single one of God's commandments and never sin, ever. No man has ever done that (except Jesus and he was both God and man), no one, everyone deserves to go to Hell. My good works could never repay the debt I owe God. It is by God's grace that we are saved, Jesus died on the cross as a sinless man and took away God's wrath and sent away our sin. But only for those that repent, turn to God and beg forgiveness. That is how we are saved, not by works least any man should boast.

The second point you raised is fair enough, I should have clarified my point further. God is unknowable in the sense that no man can fully know him. God has revealed himself to us in the Bible so we know the basics as it were. But to completely understand the full nature of God is impossible for our weak human minds.

And for your first point it is entirely logical to me. I'm sure you know what an axiom is (but if you don't: axiom (logic) a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident) My axiom is that God exists, the universe would not make sense unless he does, God has revealed himself to me (not in a blinding flash of light but over many years). Following on from that it is perfectly logical to take God's word (The Bible) as being 100% true and therefore above and beyond what man has come up with (Big Bang) God beats man anyday in my logic system.

However, your axiom is that God does not exist. Therefore my logic to you seems illogical just as your logic to me seems illogical. My axiom is never going to change because i have God's promise that it will not. Your axiom can change, and might, but if it does so it will only be because God has revealed himself to you.
Fair enough. What we believe, we believe, nothing more. I also am very aware that not everything can be explained by science(yet). I guess we'll find out when we die.
 

mykalwane

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Well going threw so far, I think it is fair to agree that even though it may not be right. It seems to just be the best possible answer. That the argument seems to be less on what seems to be the best possible answer we have is we are arguing over what we think is to be the best answer.(Something I think I got lost in as well, sorry)

So if we can agree on that it is in the same direction, why are we arguing over who is right or wrong on this? If people that agree on that it is God that created Earth are right, if right,then it came from a single point of the universe. Then if wrong, then people agree that is the big bang theory they are also agreeing that from a single point comes the universe. So in that if then statement we are both agreeing that life comes from a single point.

Even if one is wrong on how it got to that single point for life, they are still right on life coming from a single point. Now since both the god side and the science side agree we have free will, maybe there is the possibility that both are right to allow for us to choice. Just seems that even if God created all, the big bang theory may be the science of how it happen.