Poll: The Correct Protocol for Transgendered Romance

[shitoutonme]

Before I even get into this, I realize that there are at least a couple other topics concerning transgender on The Escapist, but this topic is specifically focused on the romantic relationships of those who have undergone sex reassignment surgery(SRS). Also, this is not an inflammatory post. If it is perceived as one, I did not explain myself correctly, and I apologize for that in advance. Now, then?

Let it be said that I have no problems with the existence of transsexuals or sex reassignment surgery. My motto is: ?Do what you need to do in order to make yourself happy, as long as you're not hurting, killing, or greatly inconveniencing anyone else." So, if someone feels that they would be happier living as the opposite sex, I?m all for them doing it and would not discourage them from having a SRS done. However, I do have a problem with what many have to say concerning those that have undergone the surgery.

?I believe revealing if you've transitioned should be up to the individual. I've heard most transgendered people don't want to think of themselves as "that other person". To them the moment of transition is when their lives truly begin. Therefore it's really none of the business of whoever they are dating.?

Although I do agree that it is the right of a man-turned-woman(MtW) or a woman-turned-man(WtM) to make the decision on whether or not they should reveal their transgender secret, I disagree with the part in bold. People who say that are basically advocating relationship suicide. When a guy (and don't think for second that this isn't a problem for the ladies either) undergoes a sex change and ends up looking as if he strolled out of the womb with nothing but X?s intact, he (or she, but for the sake of simplicity, I'm going to refer to transgendered individuals as either MtW?s or WtM?s. No disrespect intended, and for future reference this post will be mostly MtW-oriented) needs to be upfront when it comes to dating.

I understand that it's not easy to just blurt out, "Hey, guess what? I used to be one of the homies!" I can only imagine the anxiety, wondering what the person's reaction might be, fearing that he will not accept you. But it's only fair to let a dude know from the get-go what he's walking into. Why? Because the guy entering into a romantic relationship with the MtW is doing so because he thinks the MtW is a genuine woman, not an MtW. If the MtW doesn't tell the man that she is an MtW from the beginning, the relationship is based on a lie from the start. That is a huge problem, and the longer the MtW keeps it secret, the bigger the problem will become. It's for this reason that I believe the truth should be made known from the time romantic expectations are made clear. Once he is aware of the truth, he can now love the MTW for both who and what she actually is, rather than just who she is and what he thought she was, and practically all future complications are negated. It?s the only practical course of action.

See, this wouldn?t even be an issue for me if SRS did more for transsexuals, but the unfortunate truth is that it does not turn MtW?s or WtM?s into genuine women and men from a physiological and anatomical standpoint. And I?m saying this based on info about SRS that was directly given to me from a MtW who is currently undergoing the operation. I?ll quote a few things that he said in spoilers, but be warned, some of it is rather explicit.

Spoiler

If you must know, before the "surgery", assuming you meant the penis-to-vagina operation specifically, a transsexual* is as female as she'll ever likely get, the surgery itself does not feminize one and you cannot get the surgery without living as a female for at least a year.. The penis is essentially reversed in on itself, to create a pouch, which is a vagina. Further surgeries can enhance the labia or "lips".
*Note, I mean Male-to-female TSs, there is no "penis" surgery for FtMs as of yet.
Now this may sound very odd, but it's been known that gynecologists cannot tell the difference been biological females and transgendered females post-surgery.
Anatomically, a post-surgery TS is identical to a woman "down there", but internally she does not have a womb so won't menstruate or have children.

^This is where the problem lies. Technically, MTW's and WTM's are still the gender that they were born as, even after the operation; the only difference is that they've been physically altered to make them look like the opposite gender. SRS are only used to make them feel like they're the gender they wish to be in order to make them happy, and that's just fine. But, if an MtW is incapable of bearing children and an WtM can?t even get a working p****, shouldn?t their potential lovers be informed of these facts before getting involved?

Transsexuals who support the ?it?s nobody?s business? idea don't realize that they are doing neither themselves, nor their potential lovers, any favors by keeping their sex change a secret. If they don't address the issue at the beginning, complications are almost guaranteed to arise in the future. One such complication is the obvious: their partners may be disgusted and repulsed by the fact that they were originally (place the gender at birth here). Another problem is the possibility of their partners being offended because they were kept in the dark for so long, feeling that they've been deceived and manipulated. Both scenarios will likely result in the immediate end of a relationship, or at least the relationship will become extremely shaky. When the relationship ends, feelings get hurt and precious time, among other things, is wasted, and that holds true for both parties.

Look, I'm not saying they have to wear badges or something; I'm just saying that people who have undergone sex changes should tell potential romantic partners about the operation before the relationship begins. Hell, I practically do I.D. checks when I talk to girls now, and it's not just because you can barely distinguish between a man and a woman these days; it's also because I don't want to go to jail for messing around with a 14-year-old that looks 19. And believe me, they're out there... lurking?

EDIT: How come the poll didn't show up!? Is there a way to add a poll once a topic has been started?

 

[Zenacra]

on the one hand, fuck off, MtF are FEMALE, FtM are MALE, if you are dating an MtF you are dating a GIRL, not a guy, a GIRL. On the other hand, trans bits look ugly >.> I do not find them sexually appealing, which would probably be a problem for the girl I was dating if this happened, but that just means we need to make better bits

while most of us TSs would agree with your first point, i must say, the way you go about your post seems ignorant and immature. doctors do what they can with what they're given, it's not their fault the male anatomy is so hideous that upon being made female it doesn't have quite the beauty of a natural-born female.

in regards to the OP, yeah, i can see where you're coming from, but the concept of keeping someone in the dark is about as foreign to me as Zen Buddhism to a Catholic, so i don't exactly understand why anyone wouldn't tell someone they're in a relationship with about being TS. hell, everyone i hang out with knows i'm TS, and everyone i've ever dated found out at one time or another after i first discovered it myself, with my boyfriend of (then) four years being the first person for me to tell. (i'm still with him, and he's been like fine wine; he gets better every year.) that's not to say i run around spreading it like i would the scent of wet dog with skunk on it, though, (trust me, not a pleasant smell) as i usually just keep it between people i'm close to... and my immediate family, all of whom have had varying degrees of negative reactions...

 

[cerealnmuffin]

I felt the OP tried to be very respectful and I appreciate that. I still think it's a personal choice whether to tell. It is not just a matter of will he still like me? There is also inherent danger in telling someone, because they can have a very violent reaction. Many trans people have died due to strong negative reactions. I have been attacked before for being trans, but not for telling a potential partner.

I usually tell people, but that is my choice. If from a dating site, I do mention that. If I meet them in person, I don't just blurt out that I'm trans. I usually wait to see if it will become a relationship, because I want them to get to know me (media has fed such lies, stereotypes, and encouraged guys to have a violent/disgusted reaction), gauge their opinion of lgbt stuff and if they see vehemently against it then I could move on without putting myself at risk of violence (I wouldn't want to be with someone who was a bigot anyway), and it's not an easy topic to bring up due to media's negative slant on it.

I still reserve the right to tell or not. It isn't about building a relationship on a lie, because if someone believes that they are it is implying I'm any less of a girl. I know some people reading this and probably shouting 'well dat cuz yur not' I could ramble on about all the reasons they are wrong, but a few billion people does not make some exclusive club anyway. Some people on this site basically think any trans person needs to exchange the phrase "Hello, how are you?" to "I'm a transsexual and have/haven't had the surgery.

So in conclusion, I think it is a good idea to eventually tell, but not right away and I still think it is up to the trans person. Also those who are like it's a lie, because of the lack of ability to give birth --- people who are sterile don't announce that right at the part where they say their names, I don't (and imagine most) plan on having a baby with someone the moment they meet them. It would have to be a very deep and long relationship for me to even consider kids.

 

[DMac the Knife]

This is really complicated. I have a really close friend who is a guy who was born a girl. He's always been a guy. By that I mean that even when he was a girl he thought, talked, and looked like a guy. The complicated part is that he still has XX chromosomes, has to take handfuls of pills, and has a tricky little pump.

As far as I know (he has told me so) he has never had sex with a woman without having "the conversation" first. It's not like he brings it up when he is introducing himself, but he draws the line at sex. His concern is that it would be problematic to a relationship to make a revelation of this nature after things have become serious. Maybe it is easier for him that we live in the San Francisco Bay Area, that most of his friends are in the lgbt community, and he has met all of his post reassignment girlfriends through these friends. He's not concerned for his physical safety, which I understand can be a serious problem.

In our conversations my biggest concern is how a partner would react to finding out after you have slept together. MtF might be at greater risk of immediate physical harm if the partner reacts badly, but I would never underestimate a woman's ability to go completely psycho. A person who doesn't believe they are in any way homophobic may discover hidden bigotry and lash out in this situation.

In a perfect world this wouldn't matter at all. Love is love. Unfortunately, this is far from a perfect world.

 

[shitoutonme]

Snip

Hi! I'm genderqueer, so allow me to comment on your post. =) I beleve genderqueer folk should tell romantic partners, but only when its serious. A one night fling shouldn't really matter. As long as they are satisfied, right? =P But, from what I've seen, the "vagina" of a MtF girl doesn't look at all like what a "native" vagina would look like. Thats why when I get an altered aperence I'll keep my penis, thank you very much. I'm actually scared of what a FtM penis might look like...But yeah, only if an actuall romantic relationship is actually romantic and an actual relationship. If a transexual tells every john/jane they sleep with, word might get around, and result in major consequences.

That's just the thing - when exactly does one decide that a romantic partnership is "serious"? Is that after the first date? Is it after the first kiss? Is that after you've had sex? The point of "seriousness" is different for each individual, and frankly, that's a bit scary. There should be a definitive and specific point at which conveying the transgender secret is appropriate, and I do believe it is when romantic expectations are made clear. Of course, if you had no interest in pursuing a romantic relationship from the start, then, you could simply decline, without revealing anything, but if you wish to pursue this potential relationship, isn't it only right for you to tell your partner the situation immediately?

Now, as far as one night stands are concerned, I still think you should tell your sex buddy about it, because, seriously, I personally wouldn't want to get in bed with an MtW (or MtF, as you put it), not until medical technology has advanced to the point where MtF's are honest-to-goodness women. Like I said, I have nothing against them, but where sex and romance is concerned, one should at least be considerate for their partner's sensibilities on this matter. After all, unless it's terribly obvious that you're a transsexual, your partner is pairing up with you because he thinks you're a woman, and fundamentally, you're deceiving him.

I understand that, because of ignorance and hate, problems can occur if one reveals they're a transsexual, but it is also extremely selfish not to let those you're sexually involved with know. It's a damn shame, really. Although I'm preaching from a moral standpoint, as if I'm some naïve twat, I know all too well that most transsexuals will most likely choose self-interest over honesty, and this puts me and every straight male and female in a bind of sorts.

So, let me ask you this - and this goes for all the transsexuals one The Escapist who read this - would you answer truthfully if, say, a one night stand partner asked if you were a transsexual?

on the one hand, fuck off, MtF are FEMALE, FtM are MALE, if you are dating an MtF you are dating a GIRL, not a guy, a GIRL.

With all due respect, no, they are not. And for the record, I'm not trying to upset anyone, but the fact is that undergoing SRS does not actually transform one into the opposite sex. And by "actually," I mean "physiologically and anatomically." Like I said, it wouldn't be a problem if SRS did more for them, but it doesn't.

in regards to the OP, yeah, i can see where you're coming from, but the concept of keeping someone in the dark is about as foreign to me as Zen Buddhism to a Catholic, so i don't exactly understand why anyone wouldn't tell someone they're in a relationship with about being TS. hell, everyone i hang out with knows i'm TS, and everyone i've ever dated found out at one time or another after i first discovered it myself, with my boyfriend of (then) four years being the first person for me to tell. (i'm still with him, and he's been like fine wine; he gets better every year.) that's not to say i run around spreading it like i would the scent of wet dog with skunk on it, though, (trust me, not a pleasant smell) as i usually just keep it between people i'm close to... and my immediate family, all of whom have had varying degrees of negative reactions...

If that's the case, then, I'm happy for you, and I hope those around you, including your family, will come to fully accept you for who you are.

I felt the OP tried to be very respectful and I appreciate that. I still think it's a personal choice whether to tell. It is not just a matter of will he still like me? There is also inherent danger in telling someone, because they can have a very violent reaction. Many trans people have died due to strong negative reactions. I have been attacked before for being trans, but not for telling a potential partner.

Well, I'm not arguing on the matter of whether or not it is their choice. Yes, it IS their choice. What I'm getting at is what they should do from both a moral and practical standpoint, but it would seem that I'm quickly losing ground on the practical part, since people keep bringing up violent reactions, which, I admit, is quite the pickle.

I usually tell people, but that is my choice. If from a dating site, I do mention that. If I meet them in person, I don't just blurt out that I'm trans. I usually wait to see if it will become a relationship, because I want them to get to know me (media has fed such lies, stereotypes, and encouraged guys to have a violent/disgusted reaction), gauge their opinion of lgbt stuff and if they see vehemently against it then I could move on without putting myself at risk of violence (I wouldn't want to be with someone who was a bigot anyway), and it's not an easy topic to bring up due to media's negative slant on it.

This is all true, but it still puts straight guys with no ill will towards transsexuals, such as myself, in an awkward position. I guess those I.D. checks and uncomfortable questions are our only hope...

I still reserve the right to tell or not. It isn't about building a relationship on a lie, because if someone believes that they are it is implying I'm any less of a girl. I know some people reading this and probably shouting 'well dat cuz yur not' I could ramble on about all the reasons they are wrong, but a few billion people does not make some exclusive club anyway. Some people on this site basically think any trans person needs to exchange the phrase "Hello, how are you?" to "I'm a transsexual and have/haven't had the surgery.

So in conclusion, I think it is a good idea to eventually tell, but not right away and I still think it is up to the trans person. Also those who are like it's a lie, because of the lack of ability to give birth --- people who are sterile don't announce that right at the part where they say their names, I don't (and imagine most) plan on having a baby with someone the moment they meet them. It would have to be a very deep and long relationship for me to even consider kids.

I would really like to know what those reasons are, cerealnmuffin. I really do, because facts concerning SRS tells me that you're not an actual girl. And, again, I'm not saying any of this to upset you or any other transsexuals, and I apologize if I do come off as rude or arrogant in the slightest.

Just to clarify, I'm only advocating telling potential romantic or sexual partners when romantic and sexual expectations are made clear. I'm not suggesting that transsexuals tell everyone and everyone upon meeting them. Hell, even your friends, co-workers, and acquaintances need not know the truth, because your appearance and gender are of no significance in those relationships, but one's gender is foundationally important when it comes to sexual and romantic affairs.

Also, concerning the lack of ability to give birth, many people who are sterile unaware that they're unable to give birth, while MtW's know this from the beginning. On top of that, even if someone knows they're sterile, they can inconspicuously bring up the subject of having kids with ease to determine if it is worth getting involved with a certain potential partner or not, while transsexuals don't really have that luxury. I suppose you could just ask someone "So, how do you feel about transsexuals?" during the first encounter or first date, but that more than likely won't go as smoothly as asking if they intend to have kids or not.

As far as I know (he has told me so) he has never had sex with a woman without having "the conversation" first. It's not like he brings it up when he is introducing himself, but he draws the line at sex. His concern is that it would be problematic to a relationship to make a revelation of this nature after things have become serious. Maybe it is easier for him that we live in the San Francisco Bay Area, that most of his friends are in the lgbt community, and he has met all of his post reassignment girlfriends through these friends. He's not concerned for his physical safety, which I understand can be a serious problem.

Your friend is wise, I would say, but then again, I have a problem with the waiting part. So, just how far down the line in the relationship does the sex occur? It could be days, weeks, months - and that's my problem: Wasted time, money, energy, emotions, etc., all of which could have been saved by only conveying one's genderal (not a real word but you get the point) circumstances from the beginning. I know for a fact that I'm not attracted to MtW's, or rather the idea of me dating one, and if one were to inform me of her secret when I ask her out, I would respectfully withdraw my offer and move on.

Now, I don't know how many would consider that bigotry, but all I know is that I'm uncomfortable, maybe even disturbed, with the very thought of me being romantically or sexually involved with a MtW. And I'm pretty sure most, if not all, heterosexuals feel the same way. I don't hate them. I'm not uncomfortable around them. I can work with them. I can befriend them - even become close friends with them. I respect them as people. However, I can't be sexually or romantically involved with them, and it's because SRS doesn't physiologically and anatomically turn them into the opposite sex. Once this issue is fixed, all other issues will subside.

 

[ajemas]

I agree with pretty much everything that you said, and I'm very impressed with how non-inflammatory you are. I also feel that it is a very important thing to mention to one's partner, and that it is practically an obligation. From a purely biological standpoint, they are and will always be the physical gender that they were born as. I want to emphasize that gender is a social construct and that it is totally fine if someone wants to change it, but that they will always be the same on a genetic level. Because of this, it is definitely important to mention it to their partner, simply because they might be disturbed by the fact that you aren't the gender that they thought you were.
In short, I agree with the OP. I think that it's totally fine to get a sex change but that it is necessary to inform one's partner beforehand.

 

[Nickolai77]

Tbh, i don't think this is a very big issue- for two reasons.

1)One, there are not that many transexuals, and the chances of getting involved with one for the avarage person is slim.

2)Most transexuals are reasonable people whom *would* inform a potential partner, as a number of of them have said in this thread.

As for engaging with the other question: The transexual should inform the partner about their orientation, because otherwise it is unfair deception. However they can not be forced to of course. Likewise, the potential or actual partner should be free to react to such information in accordance with their will.

I wouldn't have any sympathy for a transexual whom revealed themselves to a partner and got dumped for it. I would probably do the same, albiet that would be less so because the actual person was transexual, but more to do with the actual deception involved. Still, i don't see it as a very pressing issue, for the above reasons that i have given.

 

[shitoutonme]

I agree with pretty much everything that you said, and I'm very impressed with how non-inflammatory you are. I also feel that it is a very important thing to mention to one's partner, and that it is practically an obligation. From a purely biological standpoint, they are and will always be the physical gender that they were born as. I want to emphasize that gender is a social construct and that it is totally fine if someone wants to change it, but that they will always be the same on a genetic level. Because of this, it is definitely important to mention it to their partner, simply because they might be disturbed by the fact that you aren't the gender that they thought you were.
In short, I agree with the OP. I think that it's totally fine to get a sex change but that it is necessary to inform one's partner beforehand.

Thanks for the compliment and the support.

Tbh, i don't think this is a very big issue- for two reasons.

1)One, there are not that many transexuals, and the chances of getting involved with one for the avarage person is slim.

2)Most transexuals are reasonable people whom *would* inform a potential partner, as a number of of them have said in this thread.

Well, I agree that it's not a "pressing" issue, yes, but it is an important personal issue. It only becomes significant when you're one of the parties involved, and I can only hope that your second point holds true.

As for engaging with the other question: The transexual should inform the partner about their orientation, because otherwise it is unfair deception. However they can not be forced to of course. Likewise, the potential or actual partner should be free to react to such information in accordance with their will.

I wouldn't have any sympathy for a transexual whom revealed themselves to a partner and got dumped for it. I would probably do the same, albiet that would be less so because the actual person was transexual, but more to do with the actual deception involved.

Then, we are mostly in agreement.

 

[shitoutonme]

You have to remember the whole thing is hard for the transexual as well.

I know this. That's precisely why I tried to explain why it was to their advantage.

Spoiler

Transsexuals who support the "it's nobody's business" idea don't realize that they are doing neither themselves, nor their potential lovers, any favors by keeping their sex change a secret. If they don't address the issue at the beginning, complications are almost guaranteed to arise in the future. One such complication is the obvious: their partners may be disgusted and repulsed by the fact that they were originally (place the gender at birth here). Another problem is the possibility of their partners being offended because they were kept in the dark for so long, feeling that they've been deceived and manipulated. Both scenarios will likely result in the immediate end of a relationship, or at least the relationship will become extremely shaky. When the relationship ends, feelings get hurt and precious time, among other things, is wasted, and that holds true for both parties.

^See?

 

[Chelsea O'shea]

on the one hand, fuck off, MtF are FEMALE, FtM are MALE, if you are dating an MtF you are dating a GIRL, not a guy, a GIRL. On the other hand, trans bits look ugly >.> I do not find them sexually appealing, which would probably be a problem for the girl I was dating if this happened, but that just means we need to make better bits

this,a thousand times this.

I AM an MtF(yes thats how it goes) and i do not feel i was ever really a man,only incomplete.
its slightly insulting people would believe otherwise but i will chalk that up to ignorance.

 

[Gigano]

Well, it's important to disclose all things which could predictably be considered of significance to the average partner as early as realistically possible in the relationship, in order to establish whether you're compatible or not. Obviously can't actively force anyone to do so though.

If I had already been truly enamoured with and was very sexually attracted to a transsexual woman (unlikely as that might be, given that it seems to me that transsexual woman often retain a fairly masculine body frame and facial structure), then I don't think her past life would mean all that much to me. But I'd certainly like to know.