Poll: (TLAB:LOK Discussion) Do the Equalists have a point?

[malestrithe]

Maybe yes. Ends should not justify the means. I do not care how valid their arguments are, they lose the debate by forcing their views onto others.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Doesn't it strike anyone as incredibly unfair that you need to be a certain kind of bender to work at a particular job? You need to be a metal bender if you want to be a policeman, and you need to be a lightning bender to work at the power plant. The latter makes sense at least, but why are all the police metal benders? Surely a chi-blocker could subdue a criminal just as well.

That is true about the policemen. Properly trained Equalists are a match for the metal bending policemen so it's quite unfair not to let sufficiently trained non-benders be policemen as well.

I also wonder why they don't try and use the Equalists weapons against them. That lightning glove seems pretty damn useful. Or learn their own chi blocking.

I suppose learning a martial art, especially a highly technical one like chi-blocking, would take years of training, and most benders would prefer to devote their time to learning the style of their own bending. I imagine that the majority of non-benders who have learnt to fight would be on Amon's side, especially after the oppressive crap that Tarrlok and the council pulled. Perhaps the reason they don't use the lightning gloves is because they might be a bit restrictive? Benders seem to use their hands a lot to manipulate the elements. Also, Asami's dad probably wouldn't make them available to the enemy. They would only have the ones they seized, if any.

Of course that's all conjecture. The real reason is probably because it makes the two sides more balanced this way, for narrative purposes.

Edit: I may as well add that Amon's just too fucking cool. I like how he isn't a massive dick towards his followers like Azula and the Fire Lord were depicted in the first series. He leads thanks to well earned respect. I don't think they'll pull a "Pokemon" on us and have it turn out that Amon only wants to get rid of bending so he can rule using the very methods he denounced. That's just lazy writing and TLA series is better than that.

 

[NeutralDrow]

To those saying the council might not be benders currently, I'd think that they all agreed to put the curfew on non-benders highly suggests they are. They could possibly have willingly stuck a curfew on themselves and their families, but that just seems incredibly unlikely.

Why? Tarrlok could certainly have scared them enough to give up freedom for security.

As illustrated beautifully in the first episode, when a bender asks for your lunch money; you give it up.

If a man with a baseball bat demanded my lunch money, I'd give it up. In fact, I'd be more scared of the guy with the bat. Either can kill me, but a firebender is rarer and more likely to leave evidence.

In my opinion they should pass a law that if any bender commits a crime using his bending his bending will be taken.

Simple and fair.

That's roughly analogous to someone committing sexual harrassment and getting castrated for the first offense.

Doesn't it strike anyone as incredibly unfair that you need to be a certain kind of bender to work at a particular job? You need to be a metal bender if you want to be a policeman, and you need to be a lightning bender to work at the power plant. The latter makes sense at least, but why are all the police metal benders? Surely a chi-blocker could subdue a criminal just as well.

I'm not really sure about the police, though if they are all earthbenders, at least metalbending is a pretty good reason for it. A chiblocker could subdue a criminal just as well...up close. Metalbenders, on the other hand, can subdue at range, and they still have normal earthbending for capture and transport. It's like having an entire police force of Spiderman clones, without the angst.

It's doubtful that all power plant workers are firebenders. After all, power plants in real life don't have workers who can shoot electricity from their fingers, but they still require human labor to build and keep running. And Liberty City power plants almost certainly use normal generators in addition to human-input generators. They clearly have the technology for them (see: the Equalist weapons), and not all firebenders can bend lightning anyway; it requires a lot of skill and control. Lightningbenders probably generate more power than whatever technology is in general use (or there'd be no point to using them at all), but unless it's a lot more, I wouldn't think there are enough of them to power the entire city day and night, even taking nonpeak hours into account.

Wiat, since when can Amon bend? I haven't seen him bend ANYTHING in any episode so far.

If his bending removal power and bloodbending resistance is any indication, at the very least he seems to be an akashabender like the Avatar.

Yes, I know, it's called spirit bending, but screw it. The Hindu name is cooler.

 

[Tanis]

I have to admit, I like how this is the 'reverse x-men' thing going on here.

 

[Lizardon]

snip

Your right, I had forgotten about the Dai Li and the fishing village. I feel Tarlok's actions don't count here as he was abusing he's political powers, not his bending. I concede that benders can and do abuse their powers. But I think the big issue is do we punish the majority for the actions of the minority?

RC's police force is comprised primarily of metal benders, the Dai Li were all Earth Benders.

Shouldn't the police force be comprised of those most capable of enforcing the law and protecting people? In the real world, we want our police to be able to deal with certain situations, which require them to be strong, smart and be proficient in firearms. The police in the world of the Avatar have to deal with more difficult situations, like chasing the Avatar through the streets on a Polar Bear Dog. It seems obvious to me, that like any job, those most capable of fulfilling the job requirements would be the one who is hired.

A bender automatically has the advantage UNLESS someone has access to years of combat training or a piece of complicated technology

I feel one thing we might need to consider is how much bending is natural ability, and how much is due to training and practice. On her own, Katara only managed simple water bending techniques and even then required a lot of effort on her part. Most competent benders are seen to be adults or were dedicated to bending from a young age (Aang, Toph, Bolin, Mako). It seems that while there is some natural talent, the bulk of there power and abilities comes from practice and training. So if the bender has had to do years of training to get the advantage, why should the non-benders get to complain if they do not put in the same effort to better themselves?
Also complicated technology? A lot of the time the Equalists manage to subdue benders using only a bolas, a piece of cord with weights at both ends.

Further, there's a difference between a 'gifted' individual and one who can set you alight just by thinking about it, or one who can puppeteer you to commit acts against your will, or one who can rend the very ground you walk on. Surely that would give any of us pause.

I don't think there is a difference. I'm pretty sure shooting fire from your hands comes under the definition of gifted =P

The problem I really have with this is that we are dealing with hypothetical's. This person could use there natural abilities to control people, this person could kill someone easily etc. Should we really take action and implement things like legislation based on what could potentially happen at some point? Or should we give people the benefit of the doubt, trust that they will do the right thing, and only take action when they've proven themselves to be irresponsible and dangerous.

 

[MiriaJiyuu]

Furthermore, aside from the 'simple' vanilla control over Earth, Fire, Water, and Air; some benders can 'kick it up a notch' in a variety of ways. For example: a Water Bender's power increases during a full moon and -for some- so much so that they can 'blood bend' (turn another person into an unwilling slave by bending the water in their body) some blood benders are so powerful that they can control groups of people even during the day. A centennial comet increases a fire bender's power several hundred fold (nearly allowing a fire lord to burn an entire nation to the ground in a matter of hours [with help]).

You're forgetting things like metal-bending which could tear most of the more modern technology in TLOK apart, and lightning bending, a now fairly common place skill, that can kill a non-bender easy since they don't have the chi-pathways to use redirection.

Until now, a non-bender had little recourse to resist any abuses of power by benders apart from 'give them no reason to notice you'.

Even in the TLA there were plenty of non-benders who fought back, a good portion of the cast could not bend and could fight off a bender, Ty Lee, Sokka and Mai come to mind immediately. The average person probably could not though, you're right about that.

OT: The Equalists most definitely have a point, in case you've forgotten one of the first things we see in the series are a group of thugs from a bending gang demanding payment from a presumably innocent shopkeeper. There's no doubt that some benders will use their power to oppress others, the Fire Nation did it for 100 years. Of course as the OP pointed out, the non-benders have no representation in the government, the council is composed of benders only.

That said, this isn't one sided, benders have a right to not have their powers taken away indiscriminately. I actually disagreed with the removal of bending at the end of TLA due to it amounting to spiritual rape, I still believe they may as well have killed Ozai for what it was worth.

To me they should be demanding equal representation for both benders and non-benders on the council, not 'equalizing' everyone. Amon is not wrong in wanting equality, but he's going about it the wrong way.

 

[Tanis]

Wiat, since when can Amon bend? I haven't seen him bend ANYTHING in any episode so far.

The only way to permanently remove bending is spirit bending

A lack of bending is not bending.
*smirk*

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

One (well now two) Blood benders EVER have had the ability to blood bend when it's not a full moon and besides blood bending is illegal.

Yay blood bending is illegal. But when a blood bender is as powerfull as tarlock? Who can stop him? Weve seen only TWO EXAMPLES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD of people who can resist blood bending. The avatar in the avatar state. Which is obvious. And amon. Because that guys a freak of nature. A truely powerfull blood bender has TWO people in the world to fear and everyone else to enslave. Weve seen its possible to drive the avatar underground or kill them. Amon is likely only a mortal. Only two lives need to be taken to ensure almost a full lifetime of control over the population (until a new avatar comes along and is trained). Its illegal sure. In the same way its illegal for Dr Manhattan to steal a coke. But are you going to stop him? He could rip you apart in a second.

Also the idea of an equal police force. Non benders can be self governed sure. But they CANNOT be self policed. Imagine if we were policed by a "stronger" naturally "faster" race of people, and not a single member of ours was in the police force. Wouldnt you feel naturally threatened by this ever present much more powerfull force that could control your life at the drop of a hat? I thought the entire point of the "American right to bare arms" is to be able to resist a tyranical government. What weapons do the non benders have to resist THIS police force? The oppertunity to undergo intense insane ninja training i guess. But thats freaking hard. You cant expect every man woman and child to do that. Integrating some of "amons" electro "benders" into the police force (i mean people with the same skills minus the evil) would be a lot better and a lot more fair.

That said i think providing as many non benders as possible with insane ninja training or the oppertunity therein would level the odds greatly. Also allow the electro gloves in public for every man woman and child. That way everyone has the POTENTIAL for power (like bending or ninja electro power) and its up to them to train it (same in both cases). To be weak is the fault of the person or the upper limit of any natural ability. It levels the playing field a lot more. Also metal benders? Use fucking copper. Or titanium. Seriously. Why are you using conductive iron/steel?! Thats INSANE.

 

[Tanis]

What if something happened and Amon is REALLY an Avatar?

That's why Korra is, well, spiritually "dead"?

I mean...
Aang was FROZEN IN ICE FOR around 100 YEARS
Nearly killed
Removed of his 'Avatar State' - at least for a while

Maybe the writers are gearing up for something?

 

[Flames66]

In my opinion they should pass a law that if any bender commits a crime using his bending his bending will be taken.

Simple and fair.

That's roughly analogous to someone committing sexual harrassment and getting castrated for the first offense.

No it isn't.
Can you think by yourself why it isn't the same? I hate explaining obvious things.

No, that is pretty much exactly the same. The entire idea is abhorrent.

EDIT: Here is a slightly better example. The fastest runner in the world (No police could catch him on equal terms) decides to take up crime. After many chases he is finally caught and it is ruled that his legs be broken so he can never run again. That is effectively what we are talking about here.

 

[thespyisdead]

i am going into speculation now. Amon IS a bender of some element, but because he wants to lead this revolution, he chooses to not do so. how do I know this? i believe, that he managed to master energy bending, the most basic type of bending.

when we break down Amon's intentions and plans and actions, are no different than the ones of the benders, that went down the wrong path: abuse of power for their personal gain.

what it all comes down to, the responsible, or irresponsible use of ones gift. i think it is unfair to judge a large group of people, just by the actions of the peeople, who use their power wrong.

the proper response to this should have come from the council, where they would have imposed stricter rules on bending, and harsher punishment on those, who missuse their power.

edit: simply creating a non bender nation, would mean, that at some point, families WILL be torn apart, and should the benders and non benders not get along because of his fact, war will happen, and we are in the same position we are in now

 

[Pat8u]

Im still going on my hunch that amon is the face stealer from the first series

The equalists should went for a more peaceful way of getting better treatment but so should of the communists in many countries in the real world
(It is such an obvious metaphor though)

 

[Flames66]

In my opinion they should pass a law that if any bender commits a crime using his bending his bending will be taken.

Simple and fair.

That's roughly analogous to someone committing sexual harrassment and getting castrated for the first offense.

No it isn't.
Can you think by yourself why it isn't the same? I hate explaining obvious things.

No, that is pretty much exactly the same. The entire idea is abhorrent.

EDIT: Here is a slightly better example. The fastest runner in the world (No police could catch him on equal terms) decides to take up crime. After many chases he is finally caught and it is ruled that his legs be broken so he can never run again. That is effectively what we are talking about here.

Another stupid example.
Think before you speak.

Don't bother waiting for an explanation from me. I don't have time to waste with trolls (or ignorant)
You can disagree, but thinking what you both said it's the same is idiotic.

Unless you come up with something better than a cop out "I can't be bothered to explain", I can only assume it is you who is ignorant.

 

[senordesol]

1.Your right, I had forgotten about the Dai Li and the fishing village. I feel Tarlok's actions don't count here as he was abusing he's political powers, not his bending. I concede that benders can and do abuse their powers. But I think the big issue is do we punish the majority for the actions of the minority?

2.Shouldn't the police force be comprised of those most capable of enforcing the law and protecting people? In the real world, we want our police to be able to deal with certain situations, which require them to be strong, smart and be proficient in firearms. The police in the world of the Avatar have to deal with more difficult situations, like chasing the Avatar through the streets on a Polar Bear Dog. It seems obvious to me, that like any job, those most capable of fulfilling the job requirements would be the one who is hired.


3.I feel one thing we might need to consider is how much bending is natural ability, and how much is due to training and practice. On her own, Katara only managed simple water bending techniques and even then required a lot of effort on her part. Most competent benders are seen to be adults or were dedicated to bending from a young age (Aang, Toph, Bolin, Mako). It seems that while there is some natural talent, the bulk of there power and abilities comes from practice and training. So if the bender has had to do years of training to get the advantage, why should the non-benders get to complain if they do not put in the same effort to better themselves?
Also complicated technology? A lot of the time the Equalists manage to subdue benders using only a bolas, a piece of cord with weights at both ends.

4.I don't think there is a difference. I'm pretty sure shooting fire from your hands comes under the definition of gifted =P

The problem I really have with this is that we are dealing with hypothetical's. This person could use there natural abilities to control people, this person could kill someone easily etc. Should we really take action and implement things like legislation based on what could potentially happen at some point? Or should we give people the benefit of the doubt, trust that they will do the right thing, and only take action when they've proven themselves to be irresponsible and dangerous.

1. You make a good point with the minority/majority dilemma, however I can't help but stress that those enforcement agencies were exclusively comprised of benders (Correction: It's conceivable that the radio crew we saw last episode were NBs, but I'm talking about field officers). Consequently, it could be argued 'Not every bender will oppress you, but any one who will oppress you will be a bender (A gross over-generalization, I know, but it would no doubt carry significant weight with any NBs in earshot when they consider all the gross excesses that have happened over time).

2. Those real-world officers are the result of hard work and training. While I'm sure the metal benders and the Dai Li DO train ridiculously hard, the fact that their organizations are (for all intents and purposes) exclusionary with regard to who can be a member of the enforcement team subverts the SECOND most important part of a police force: to inspire faith and trust in the community's safety. When the police force lords themselves above the populace in literal flying chariots, with access to powers no one who wasn't born with them could possibly hope to have; it's easy to see how what should inspire faith only inspires fear.

3. I'm talking straight-up average Joes here. You are born with bending ability, and even if you hone it just a bit to the point where you can produce a gout of flame, command a column of water, or raise a rock out of the ground; you've already mastered something a non-bender could not possibly hope to do with a lifetime of training. And you have it with you ALL THE TIME (maybe not water, but the other ones anyway). Conversely Bolas, and Powergloves only work like that if you have them with you ALL THE TIME. The only exception is a mastery of chi blocking; but that only works if you're close enough to touch your assailant. Without a ridiculous mastery of gymnastics as well; your chances go way down against even basic benders. As an example: remember Ep1 of the original TLA? Where Katara was so untrained that she could only freeze bend backwards? Even that lack of skill was of no help to that Non-bending FN soldier (who probably when through months of weapon and hand-to-hand combat training).

4. Well that's the crux of the matter isn't it? Sadly, I don't think there are any valid real-world analogues to compare this to so it is simply an academic exercise. If a man has the ability -from birth (with some honing, of course)- to make you commit actions against your own will with no means to resist him when he does it; do you wait until he actually does it before you consider him dangerous?

Now I am actually for a separate nation. Even with better representation amongst the existing governments (which I am not particularly against) Non-benders will always remain at the mercy of benders. That is, unless they are unified and capable of mounting a defense without interference from the likes of Tarlok. Now, I can't point to any particular line in the show that expressly says this; but I'm pretty sure that chi blocking training is illegal, and power gloves certainly are. Why? If a man can walk down the street with the ability engulf me in flames in moments, why can't I walk down the street with a nice -ahem- 'equalizer' at my disposal? I would argue it is because benders -on even the most subconscious of levels- don't want to give up their power over the NBs.

Now I agree that making the benders 'the same as you' is not the way to handle it. I think, though, that if there was a place where one didn't have to worry about it; it would be a solution that would make everybody happy.

 

[Uncreation]

I have not watched the show, because i don't like anime, but from what i've read from this thread, i certainly agree with this Amon guy.
A society, or, an entire world, as the case seams to be, that is led by a minority of people born with superpowers that rule over a majority of ordinary people is not one in which i would like to live. The possibility for tyranny is too great. Even if they are not one monolithical group and have different opinions, and they fight among themselves, etc. it still does not make a difference. One of these people has simply by birth, skills that no regular human could hope to obtain through any amount of training. This alone elevates them to a whole different level to a regular human being.
What is a regular person to do against one of these super-humans? Like another poster said before (i think he even said it was a quote from the first episode of the show): "if a bender asks you for your lunch money, you give it to him". If a large enough group of these guys decided they wanted to rule the world, i don't see how regular people could stop them.
And like i said, just because they are not a monolithical group, and are divided and such, that still is not ok. Because they are still the ones that decide everything. If a group of "evil benders" showed up to enslave everyone, and a group of "good benders" defeated them, the fate of the world, including the fates of all the regular people, was still shaped by the group of "good benders", not by any of the average people. The whole lot of the would be just irelevant. If they decided to put up a fight, i'm sure it would only take a handfull of "evil benders" to just slaughter them all. So in the end, as far as i see it, if you are a regular human being in such a world, you are irelevant, and there is no way to gain any sort of relevance unless a bender wants you to. You are inferior, PERIOD. Because, even if you are the most powerfull non-bender in the world, if a bender walks up to you, and tells you to kiss his ass, you have no option but to do it, because he can probably kill you in half a second with powers you cannot begin to understand.
And even if most benders wouldn't do that, the fact alone, that they have the option to, is for me unacceptable. So, as far as i see it, the fate of the world is in the hands of the benders, and as a regular human, all you cand do generally is "bend" over (lulz) and take it.

Additionally, they're ordinary people in every other respect. They have no greater tendency to be "evil" than non-benders.

The ability to "enslave" people (bloodbending) is illegal and incredibly rare. There are very few even capable of the feat, let alone know how to do it and are willing to use it. Doing it under any circumstance warrants swift and harsh punishment under the law.

The comet that give firebenders immense power only comes around every 100 years and only lasts a few hours. To destroy a nation with it takes immense numbers and years of planning and it has only been done once against a nation that had no formal military of any sort.

I know you tried to calm some peoples fears of these "bender" individuals, but your post had the opposite effect on me:
1. That is not at all reassuring. Quite the contrary: the fact that they are like ordinary people when it comes to moral issue is frightening, because it almost ensures that at least some will be tyrannical and with a lust to rule over others, to have their own slave nation/world. If there are enough of them, it is almost certain that at least one will rise, sooner or later who will try to become a dictator, or something similar, and when that type of person has some super-power at this or her dispossal, it only takes one of these maniacs to start something very very ugly.
2. Just because something has been made illegal does not mean it has been made impossible. Laws ar suppose to act as a deterrent, but there is almost no way that a law will stop someone from doing something if they want to. If someone wants to steal a book from a bookstore (random example), that person can just grab it and run away. Sure, he or she can be caught, and punished, but the deed was already done. And when we are talking about something as serious as completely enslaving someone, then any punishment the perpetrator may suffer after that may be completely irelevant. If they destroy some lives beyond any hope of repair before they are brought to justice, then the punishment they suffer will not help fix the harm they have done. Just because it's rare and illegal does not reassure me in any way. The fact itself that it exist is, at least for me, unacceptable.
3. This really, REALLY scares me. You see it as "it only happened once before". I see it as: "it already happened once before". Not only that, but it was directed at a defenceless nation. Do you have any idea how monstrous that sounds to me? I know your point was that it destroyed a nation that could not defend itself, and so a better prepared one might fare better, but i see it as: "not only is it an enormous power, but it was also directed at a bunch of people that couldn't even defend themselves".

If i would live in this world, i might be inclined to start something similar to this resistance movement myself if that Amon guy was not around at the time. If he is, then i would probably follow him. The only thing that would stop me from doing that is having some sort of doubt about the guy. For example: what is he doing this for... could he simply be doing this in order to grab power himself?

I guess however, forming a separate nation composed only of non-benders would also be acceptable in order to avoid bloodshed.

 

[Flames66]

In my opinion they should pass a law that if any bender commits a crime using his bending his bending will be taken.

Simple and fair.

That's roughly analogous to someone committing sexual harrassment and getting castrated for the first offense.

No it isn't.
Can you think by yourself why it isn't the same? I hate explaining obvious things.

No, that is pretty much exactly the same. The entire idea is abhorrent.

EDIT: Here is a slightly better example. The fastest runner in the world (No police could catch him on equal terms) decides to take up crime. After many chases he is finally caught and it is ruled that his legs be broken so he can never run again. That is effectively what we are talking about here.

Another stupid example.
Think before you speak.

Don't bother waiting for an explanation from me. I don't have time to waste with trolls (or ignorant)
You can disagree, but thinking what you both said it's the same is idiotic.

Unless you come up with something better than a cop out "I can't be bothered to explain", I can only assume it is you who is ignorant.

I don't care. I've been on forums for so much time, that I've reached a stage I don't care anymore. And unless you find something new or interesting to say I rest my case on this topic.

As you haven't made a case and the time you have spent of these forums is irrelevant, I am going to conclude you are being contrary for the sake of it.

I am talking about a (fictional) political agenda that aims to go back to the medieval system of cutting off criminals body parts. That idea is morally disgusting.

 

[uneek]

Well, it's nice that you decided to join even though you don't watch the show. I just have to correct a few things, though.

... because i don't like anime

First rule of this show(both of them): don't use that word. I can't tell you why but I've heard it drives some members of the fandom insane. Like brony-level insane. Just warning you.

...that is led by a minority of people born with superpowers

Now see, I wouldn't call them superpowers. Technically they are, but both series have shown bending to be somewhat different from superpowers. A few examples are:

1. They are learned and practiced the same way martial arts are. In fact, each bending technique is modeled after actual martial arts.

2. It takes skill to do well. You're not born being able to summon tsunamis at will.

3. I'ts been around for centuries. Humanity's used to it. If we had people who could control the elements, we'd adjust(At least, I'd like to think so)

...Like another poster said before (i think he even said it was a quote from the first episode of the show): "if a bender asks you for your lunch money, you give it to him".

That's actually not a quote from the first episode. But it is a nice sum up of a situation demonstrated in that episode.

What happened was that we saw a group of people from a gang extorting money from a guy who ran a shop. They seemed to have the intention of burning down the shop if it wasn't for our hero who stopped them.

If a group of "evil benders" showed up to enslave everyone, and a group of "good benders" defeated them, the fate of the world, including the fates of all the regular people, was still shaped by the group of "good benders", not by any of the average people.

This happened in the first show. 2 of the group of heroes who helped save the world happened to be non-benders. These 2 people were well respected among their friends and fought just as well as them.

The only thing that would stop me from doing that is having some sort of doubt about the guy. For example: what is he doing this for... could he simply be doing this in order to grab power himself?

Others have disagreed with me, but I personally think he's kind of sketchy. He hides behind a mask and seems to have some kind of personal prejudice against benders.

I guess however, forming a separate nation composed only of non-benders would also be acceptable in order to avoid bloodshed.

The first show has shown that the little contact that the four nations had with eachother made it harder for peace between them. In fact, the United Republic of Nations, the setting of the second show, was meant to bring everyone together.

Other than those little points, you made a nice argument. Kudos.