Poll: unstoppable object meets unmovable object

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
DiscoveryOne said:
they are the same thing I imagine.
they cannot be the same thing by definition. something cannot be in motion and unmovable at the same time, unless of course you move the universe, so that object would be in motion but at the same place in relation with the universe... but since motion is relative, you need a reference to move a universe, which by definition contains everything... so how do you move that "everything", or better said, how do you realize a universe is moving without external references.

motion is relative, imagine for a momment that in the universe there is only one object, how do you know if it is moving or not? how do you measure it?... see the problem. Now make that object "x",a universe, where is it contained? how do you realize if is moving or not?

the real answer to this problem is that both cannot exist at the same universe.
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
mugetsu37 said:
Versabane said:
Soulution 1: The immovable object is a hallow cylinder with a hole in each end, and the unstoppable object passes right through it.

Soulution 2: If the immovable object was, as stated, truly immovable, it would have defences against unstoppable objects. An example would be a anti-gravity field. When the unstoppable object passes through this, it does not decelerate, but still changes direction.
Solution three: The unstoppable object is not moving.
if it is not moving is already stopped, so... you are changing the conditions
 

NeutralDrow

New member
Mar 23, 2009
9,097
0
0
Eliam_Dar said:
NeutralDrow said:
Joos said:
NeutralDrow said:
The only unstoppable object is an immovable object. They can't meet at all.

Did you mean unstoppable force?
Yes, that is what he means. At least, that is what I presumed what he meant.
In that case, the unstoppable force wins. The result is called a black hole.
no, a black hole is the caused by a star collapsing into its own gravitational field. no external forces are involved.
Counting gravity as a fundamental force and the leftover mass of a star as the immovable object, and considering the compression of neutronium into a singularity as moving the immovable object. A bit of stretch, I know, but still...
 

Eclectic Dreck

New member
Sep 3, 2008
6,662
0
0
What you have is a paradox and as such there is no solution.

If we ignore the mechanics involved (which would give us all the tools required to come up with a solution for the problem if the objects in question followed the laws of physics) and just look simply we find that there are only two possibilities. Either the immovable object moves in violation of it's properties or the unstoppable has it's velocity modified in violation of it's properties.

For a further discussion of why the scenario has no merit for discussion let us consider some fundamental properties of classical physics, thanks to everyone's friend Isaac Newton. In the simplest terms I can manage, we know about three properties of motion that apply in most situations (most meaning not terribly large or massive or fast moving or tiny - any object you can interact with on eart would fit these requirements handily)

1) An object will continue in it's current state of motion unless an outside force acts upon it.

2) The force is proportional to mass and acceleration of an object

3) Any force is resited by an equal force applied in the opposite direction

Now, let us consider what this implies about our moving object described as "unstoppable". For the object to be unstoppable in the literal sense we know that this means that no quantity of force will alter it's current state of motion. Since the second law of motion tells us that force = mass * acceleration this implies that either the object has infinite mass or infinite speed - this is the only way to arrive at infinite force in this linear equation. The trouble is, infinite mass implies a whole heap of problems, not the least of which is the simple fact that the usual laws of the universe cease to apply - in fact, they stopped applying long before you reached infinite mass.

In the second situation, you find the same problem applies. Fortunately, the universe gives us a few situations on the very edge of our understanding to examine.

The first is a black hole. The neat thing is, once the mass of an object reaches a certain critial threshold, the combined force of gravity causes it to collapse. The sun for example meets this critera. Gas eventually collected in sufficient quantity in a small enough area that a collapse was irreversible. As the density of the generally hydrogen gas increased, eventually the force applied at the very center was strong enough to allow the hydrogen atoms to overcome their natural aversion to one another and they begin to fuse into helium. The reacon that takes place results in a small loss of mass. Current physics theory tells us the matter is converted to energy - a LOT of energy, and is represented by the most famous equation in the world: E = mc^2, or energy = mass * (speed of light in a vacuum) ^ 2. As the density at the core increases eventually equilibrium is reached and the collapse is halted by the the energy created by fusion.

Of course, eventually the star runs out of fuel and once again begins to collapse. If a star is small enough (like our Sun), eventually the collapse creates sufficient density in the core that Helium is fused into heavier atoms producing far more energy than the simple hydrogen fusion that occured before. This causes the outer layers of the star to baloon to many times the size the star was at previously and becomes a "red giant". In other cases, with an especially massive star, the collapse results in such an enormous amount of energy that the star literally explodes. There are many other cases but sometimes, when the star meets very specific mass requirements, the end state is the core will collapse under the force of gravity until not even light can escape. Eventually one ends up with a point of infinite density where all known physical laws cease to apply and one ends up with a black hole. Said black hole is unfortunally surrounded by an area of space where the force of gravity is sufficiently high that not even light can escape. The boundary of this area is known as an "even horizon" - cross the threshold and the brightest minds in history can only take rough stabs at what may happen.

So, if we have a scenario in which two infinitely massive objects are about to collide, what exactly will happen? The first thing we have to realize is that while we have infinite density, we do not actually have an infinitely massive object - a black hole is no more massive after collpase than it was before (and, if Stephen Hawking is to be believe a black hole actually loses mass over time thanks to radiating energy, the smaller the hole the quicker it loses mass). Since both objects are, for the purposes of the discussion anyway, immovable and unstoppable, a black hole collision proves the best analog to the question. If two such objects actually mage to collide (and not enter orbit around one another) the result may well be a huge amount of energy that cannot be observed and an object that is likely roughly equal in mass to the combination of the masses of the two objects. In other words - two small black holes collide and you'll probably end up with a somewhat larger single black hole.

Of course, even this analog doesn't really meet the requirments stated, and even then it's on the ragged edge of human understanding. What's more, I suspect that none of us (including myself) are entirely qualified to come up with theories on the subject. Suffice it to say, the question has no answer and moreover, there is no such thing as an unstoppable or immovable object, just objects that are difficult to stop or move. Since we know that an object has to have infinite mass to quality as unstoppable or immovable, we arrive at a key point others have stated: only one example can possibly exist at a given moment. An object with infinte mass exerts infinite force on any other object regardless of position. Application of infinite force implies that any object that is not a part of the infinitely massive object instantly becomes a part of said object. The real trouble of course, is when you have nothing more than an infinitely massive object, motion doesn't exist so it can't qualify as either immovable or unstoppable because the two words imply the same thing: an object that no amount of applied force can move. Since there is nothing to relate motion to, it effectively becomes both immobile and unstoppable at the same moment. Both words describe the same thing essentially.
 

Eclectic Dreck

New member
Sep 3, 2008
6,662
0
0
lacktheknack said:
It would bounce. It hasn't stopped, and the unmovable object hasn't moved.
You're mistaken. In the case of a perfectly direct collision, where the the absolute value of the resultant velocity vector is equal to the original vector (the only way your statement holds true in the slightest), only the direction of the vector is different by 180 degrees, you'll find that for an infintesimal moment the object has come to a complete stop. Moreover, if an object's velocity can be altered in ANY way, then we know that it reacts as expected to an external force. In short, if you can change the direction in which something travels, then we know that a sufficient force vector will halt the object entirely.
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
lets play for a momment... lets assume that something like a megaverse (a universe that contains universes) can exist, and we have a universe with an unmovable object, and a unstoppable force meets it (we have already pointed out that this is not possible, but just play with it) to make both things possible at the same time, that universe should start moving in relation to the "megaverse", the force is still moving in relation to the megaverse, and the object is unmmovable in relation to the universe... but, if we look at the unverse only we face a paradox, sine the unstoppable force has been stopped (think at universe level), and if we look at the "megaverse" we also face a paradox, since the unnmovable object is moving. So this solution is not possible. =)
 

The Rockerfly

New member
Dec 31, 2008
4,649
0
0
FalloutJack said:
None of the answers above.

The answer is...the unstoppable object hits the unmovable object and then the entire universe starts moving. Basically, the unmovable one is anchored to the universe, and the unstoppable one literally CAN'T stop. So, to satisfy all field, the universe has to give and thus the unstoppable object pushes the universe around while the unmovable one still sits stationary.
I think we have a winner, please accept your prize of a cookie and a trophy for this victory



Honestly, I've never thought of this question like that
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
NeutralDrow said:
Eliam_Dar said:
NeutralDrow said:
Joos said:
NeutralDrow said:
The only unstoppable object is an immovable object. They can't meet at all.

Did you mean unstoppable force?
Yes, that is what he means. At least, that is what I presumed what he meant.
In that case, the unstoppable force wins. The result is called a black hole.
no, a black hole is the caused by a star collapsing into its own gravitational field. no external forces are involved.
Counting gravity as a fundamental force and the leftover mass of a star as the immovable object, and considering the compression of neutronium into a singularity as moving the immovable object. A bit of stretch, I know, but still...
I love this discussions it makes you use your brain.

the problem that I see there is that gravity (which is a form of acceleration) would be meaningless without an object to attract, since its a force that can only be applied to the existing object (which is unmovable).... And the star that created a black hole is already in motion, since it is part of a galaxy =)
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
The Rockerfly said:
FalloutJack said:
None of the answers above.

The answer is...the unstoppable object hits the unmovable object and then the entire universe starts moving. Basically, the unmovable one is anchored to the universe, and the unstoppable one literally CAN'T stop. So, to satisfy all field, the universe has to give and thus the unstoppable object pushes the universe around while the unmovable one still sits stationary.
I think we have a winner, please accept your prize of a cookie and a trophy for this victory



Honestly, I've never thought of this question like that
sorry but the universe cannot move, as I explained above, even if we accepted so, the conditions of the paradox make it remain a paradox
 

SpcyhknBC

New member
Aug 24, 2009
271
0
0
A change in direction implies a zero velocity at some point, even if for an infinitesimal time period. I'd have to say beautiful fusion would occur and destroy a sizable chunk of the planet.

Alternatively, matter is mostly empty space anyway, so if both conditions must me met, I imagine that they would just pass through each other preserving their respective states.
 

NeutralDrow

New member
Mar 23, 2009
9,097
0
0
Eliam_Dar said:
NeutralDrow said:
Eliam_Dar said:
NeutralDrow said:
Joos said:
NeutralDrow said:
The only unstoppable object is an immovable object. They can't meet at all.

Did you mean unstoppable force?
Yes, that is what he means. At least, that is what I presumed what he meant.
In that case, the unstoppable force wins. The result is called a black hole.
no, a black hole is the caused by a star collapsing into its own gravitational field. no external forces are involved.
Counting gravity as a fundamental force and the leftover mass of a star as the immovable object, and considering the compression of neutronium into a singularity as moving the immovable object. A bit of stretch, I know, but still...
I love this discussions it makes you use your brain.

the problem that I see there is that gravity (which is a form of acceleration) would be meaningless without an object to attract, since its a force that can only be applied to the existing object (which is unmovable).... And the star that created a black hole is already in motion, since it is part of a galaxy =)
Perhaps, but if you look at it another way, the unmovable object is the resulting chunk of neutronium rather than the star (assuming a large enough star). Gravity is meaningless without an object to attract, but that essentially means gravity is never meaningless, since anything with mass inherently has self-affecting gravity. In this view, the unstoppable force is the gravity of the neutron star, which is made of the most densely packed matter possible. The immovability, of course, would be the fact that particles cannot exist in the same space, so a particle with literally no empty space cannot merge with another. The fact that gravity has already been enough to overcome the strong and weak nuclear forces should tell one thing, but enough mass and the gravitational force becomes strong enough to move the immovable chunk of neutronium inward, imploding it and leading to that Newtonian logic-defying concept of a singularity.

As for that last part...it kinda ruins the thought experiment when you take into account that there really is no such thing as an immovable object!
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
SpcyhknBC said:
A change in direction implies a zero velocity at some point, even if for an infinitesimal time period. I'd have to say beautiful fusion would occur and destroy a sizable chunk of the planet.

Alternatively, matter is mostly empty space anyway, so if both conditions must me met, I imagine that they would just pass through each other preserving their respective states.
matter cannot be empty, I think you mean that the univere is mostly empty space. By definition matter has mass and volume, therefore it cannot be empty, if it is not empty , and even assuming that a force can go through this object, friction takes place (even if it is insignificant in relation to the force), thus changing the condition of the unstoppable force and creating a paradox
 

Rapture00

New member
Dec 10, 2009
28
0
0
The unmoveable object would just stay and the unstoppable one would just go right through it and never stop
 

The Heik

King of the Nael
Oct 12, 2008
1,568
0
0
Joe Matsuda said:
the unstoppable object would just change direction, sliding against it without stopping...

....or go right through it....right?

EDIT: i know there is a super knife, super shield thingy thread...but this is a different situation
This situation is never gonna happen, because the universe does not work on absolutes. It works on relatives (no not my aunt Agnus *shudder*)
 

Red_Serpent

New member
Nov 23, 2009
61
0
0
Hmm sounds alot like a super anti-hero encounter.
Juggernaut vs Blob! I say Juggernaut wins by default!

I voted that the unstoppable object would skid and would move into a different direction.

The unmovable object would remain unmoved, the unstoppable object would remain unstopped.
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
NeutralDrow said:
Eliam_Dar said:
NeutralDrow said:
Eliam_Dar said:
NeutralDrow said:
Joos said:
NeutralDrow said:
The only unstoppable object is an immovable object. They can't meet at all.

Did you mean unstoppable force?
Yes, that is what he means. At least, that is what I presumed what he meant.
In that case, the unstoppable force wins. The result is called a black hole.
no, a black hole is the caused by a star collapsing into its own gravitational field. no external forces are involved.
Counting gravity as a fundamental force and the leftover mass of a star as the immovable object, and considering the compression of neutronium into a singularity as moving the immovable object. A bit of stretch, I know, but still...
I love this discussions it makes you use your brain.

the problem that I see there is that gravity (which is a form of acceleration) would be meaningless without an object to attract, since its a force that can only be applied to the existing object (which is unmovable).... And the star that created a black hole is already in motion, since it is part of a galaxy =)
Perhaps, but if you look at it another way, the unmovable object is the resulting chunk of neutronium rather than the star (assuming a large enough star). Gravity is meaningless without an object to attract, but that essentially means gravity is never meaningless, since anything with mass inherently has self-affecting gravity. In this view, the unstoppable force is the gravity of the neutron star, which is made of the most densely packed matter possible. The immovability, of course, would be the fact that particles cannot exist in the same space, so a particle with literally no empty space cannot merge with another. The fact that gravity has already been enough to overcome the strong and weak nuclear forces should tell one thing, but enough mass and the gravitational force becomes strong enough to move the immovable chunk of neutronium inward, imploding it and leading to that Newtonian logic-defying concept of a singularity.

As for that last part...it kinda ruins the thought experiment when you take into account that there really is no such thing as an immovable object!
if we look to the black hole only (removing motion relations to make it unmmovable), we are actually seeing a potential force (unstoppable), which pulls objects to the center of the black hole (potential since it would only be triggered if an object enters the black hole's event horizon) but once triggered, by the nature of the force, it would only move object to (and if we accept tha the matter in a black hole is so compacted that is indeed a hole) the center of the black hole, once on the center, the nature of the force (spherical, pulling to the center) will stop the object again falling into a paradox.
 

Eliam_Dar

New member
Nov 25, 2009
1,517
0
0
Rapture00 said:
The unmoveable object would just stay and the unstoppable one would just go right through it and never stop
even if it could happen, there is something called friction

one of the other "options" provided by the OP was that the universe would end... not possible, since that universe could have never existed on the first place
 

mugetsu37

New member
Sep 26, 2009
182
0
0
z
Eliam_Dar said:
mugetsu37 said:
Versabane said:
Soulution 1: The immovable object is a hallow cylinder with a hole in each end, and the unstoppable object passes right through it.

Soulution 2: If the immovable object was, as stated, truly immovable, it would have defences against unstoppable objects. An example would be a anti-gravity field. When the unstoppable object passes through this, it does not decelerate, but still changes direction.
Solution three: The unstoppable object is not moving.
if it is not moving is already stopped, so... you are changing the conditions
I don't believe that I am changing the conditions at all. If an unstoppable object was not moving initially it does not mean that it becomes stoppable. It only means that it has yet to be moved. Putting aside the logic that in order for something to be unstoppable it's mass would be such that it would also be unmovable from a state of rest, there is no reason why one could not make said object to move.