Poll: Video Gamings Most One Sided Arguments.

[J Tyran]

Well in Skyrim I always found the civil war ridiculously one sided.

The Stormcloaks were basically dipshits and political terrorists without a worthwhile cause. So I naturally sided with the empire and stamped them out in the name of the glorious Emperor.

The Empire lost its way though, what about all the innocent Nords being dragged off and tortured to death by the Thalmor and with the Empires consent? What about all the Jarls smooching up to Elenwen and taking Thalmor gold in order to turn a blind eye? Hammerfell also seized independence because of this, Skyrim deserves the same.

I agree, but the Stormcloaks didn't care about that, they just wanted to put Ulfric on the throne to have their god back. What do you think happens after that? The empire sits back? The Thalmor just shrug and abandon it?

The Stormcloaks where talking about planning an invasion of the Summerset isle after they consolidate the Stormcloak position and rebuild Skyrim, so they fully intend to smash the Aldmeri Dominion. Could they do it? Possibly, Hammerfell fought them to a standstill on their own.

Imagine the Dragonborn leading the charge with a pack of Dragons at his command, the Thalmor wouldn't stand a chance.

Ehhh the Stormcloaks ideals I'm fine with, but really I just don't play well with Ulfric, the man is a complete bastard and a self interested fool. Thats why I killed him. If I could lead the rebellion myself? Then I'd maybe do it.

Personally I don't think he is, he does care about his country and his god but he is not afraid of making the hard choices. Ulfric lets some things slip like why he started the rebellion, it was at the call of his people after he was released after years in jail after the Markarth incident and the people of Eastmarch where angry and they placed him Ysgramors throne and called for blood. He also cares about his personal ambition too but that's fine, Talos of Atmora was the same and so was every other great Nord leader from Ysgramor onward. He is not a complete bastard either, notice how he didn't kill or imprison the defeated Jarls? Taciturn and surly? Sure he is that, that doesn't make him a bastard though.

If his ambition and courage is enough to drive him towards the throne Nord tradition is that he can take it, if someone is mighty, charming or cunning enough to take power they deserve it.

 

[Doom972]

I never found the Mage/Templar debate one-sided. While I lean more towards the mage side, I can see where the templars are coming from. The anti-augmentation argument of "You have to suck like we do" never made sense to me, since with that attitude we would all still be living in caves.

I'm sure that there are more one-sided arguments in gaming, but I can't think of anything in particular right now.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

I'd say that discussions about favorite romances from Persona 3 and 4 tend to be quite one sided with people favoring Chie and Naoto more than anyone else.

The funniest thing is...none of those are canon, only Marie of Persona 4 Golden appears to be canon (none of the girls in Arena make an hint of being in a relationship with Yu)

Then again, all shipping fights are fucking pathetic.

Any theory you create, any ship you make, any plot point you hate, remember, I will always be there to foil you.

-Canon

What? But... I thought... but... youstupidjerkfaceihateyou

Yeah, we were talking about how much of canon-clusterfuck Persona 4:Arena is. Also, I'd love to see Wykydtron's reaction if Marie will end up canon romance option in P5.

 

[shintakie10]

Well in Skyrim I always found the civil war ridiculously one sided.

The Stormcloaks were basically dipshits and political terrorists without a worthwhile cause. So I naturally sided with the empire and stamped them out in the name of the glorious Emperor.

The Empire lost its way though, what about all the innocent Nords being dragged off and tortured to death by the Thalmor and with the Empires consent? What about all the Jarls smooching up to Elenwen and taking Thalmor gold in order to turn a blind eye? Hammerfell also seized independence because of this, Skyrim deserves the same.

I agree, but the Stormcloaks didn't care about that, they just wanted to put Ulfric on the throne to have their god back. What do you think happens after that? The empire sits back? The Thalmor just shrug and abandon it?

The Stormcloaks where talking about planning an invasion of the Summerset isle after they consolidate the Stormcloak position and rebuild Skyrim, so they fully intend to smash the Aldmeri Dominion. Could they do it? Possibly, Hammerfell fought them to a standstill on their own.

Imagine the Dragonborn leading the charge with a pack of Dragons at his command, the Thalmor wouldn't stand a chance.

That assumes the Dragonborn would bother to help the Stormcloaks. Unless the Dragonborn is a Nord, I kinda doubt they'd be happy about helpin the people that think they're less than a person.

It also assumes that the Thalmor in a defensive war after havin consolidated their power for the last...what, decade? More? Would fare the same or worse against the Nords as they did against Hammerfell after an incredibly costly war already.

The Nords would be up against the full might of an enemy that pushed the Empire to the brink of destruction before while the Empire was far superior to the current state of the Nords, civil war or no. If it came down to it the Thalmor would wipe the floor with the Nords if the Nords fought alone.

 

[J Tyran]

Well in Skyrim I always found the civil war ridiculously one sided.

The Stormcloaks were basically dipshits and political terrorists without a worthwhile cause. So I naturally sided with the empire and stamped them out in the name of the glorious Emperor.

The Empire lost its way though, what about all the innocent Nords being dragged off and tortured to death by the Thalmor and with the Empires consent? What about all the Jarls smooching up to Elenwen and taking Thalmor gold in order to turn a blind eye? Hammerfell also seized independence because of this, Skyrim deserves the same.

I agree, but the Stormcloaks didn't care about that, they just wanted to put Ulfric on the throne to have their god back. What do you think happens after that? The empire sits back? The Thalmor just shrug and abandon it?

The Stormcloaks where talking about planning an invasion of the Summerset isle after they consolidate the Stormcloak position and rebuild Skyrim, so they fully intend to smash the Aldmeri Dominion. Could they do it? Possibly, Hammerfell fought them to a standstill on their own.

Imagine the Dragonborn leading the charge with a pack of Dragons at his command, the Thalmor wouldn't stand a chance.

That assumes the Dragonborn would bother to help the Stormcloaks. Unless the Dragonborn is a Nord, I kinda doubt they'd be happy about helpin the people that think they're less than a person.

It also assumes that the Thalmor in a defensive war after havin consolidated their power for the last...what, decade? More? Would fare the same or worse against the Nords as they did against Hammerfell after an incredibly costly war already.

The Nords would be up against the full might of an enemy that pushed the Empire to the brink of destruction before while the Empire was far superior to the current state of the Nords, civil war or no. If it came down to it the Thalmor would wipe the floor with the Nords if the Nords fought alone.

It isnt as cut and dried as that, the Thalmor position isnt as strong as you claim. The great war hurt the Aldmeri Dominion as much as it did the Empire, the Thalmor made several mistakes during the war and it cost them a great deal. Initially the Thalmor where unstoppable and pushed Cyrodiil to the brink of destruction but it was the Thalmor army that left the war tattered, broken and almost completely wiped out.

The Dominion had invaded Cyrodiil and Hammerfell and had taken Leyawiin and besieged Bravil, at the time Hammerfell was suffering from internal political strife and conflict and when the Thalmor invaded the Imperial resistance was weak and ineffective. Their forces where quickly scattered, the Thalmor believed that the Empire was much weaker than they first thought and gambled everything on a swift and decisive victory. They hugely over committed their forces into taking the Imperial city, and began bringing reserves into Cyrodiil from Valenwood and Elsweyr.

The army in Hammerfell was regrouping and reinforcements from Skyrim and High Rock where converging on Cyrodiil, then the all out assault on the Imperial City began. Titus Mede II realised they could not hold the city at the time and forced a break out with most of his army leaving one legion as a (doomed) rearguard. During this time the Thalmor believed it was all but over, Hammerfell still seemed scattered and the Legions appeared to be in flight. They where wrong, badly wrong. Hammerfell seemed scattered because most of the forces where in Cyrodiil and as misdirection the Legions stayed in Hammerfell while Redguard forces marched to Cyrodiil leading the Thalmor to believe that was where Imperial forces where concentrated while the Legions in Cyrodiil had disappeared into the Colovian highlands. They mounted a three fronted counter attack and the Thalmor had little warning, two of them where intended to pin the Aldmeri flanks and reserves by attacking Cheydinhal and Chorrol while the main force hit the Imperial City. Titus Mede led the direct assault on the city himself. within a week they had retaken the city and the forces at Cheydinhal and Chorrol destroyed the consecutively weaker Aldmeri counter attacks preventing them from reinforcing the beleaguered forces at the Imperial City, some of the Thalmor forces tried to break out from the city but where annihilated by the flanking Imperial forces.

Almost all the Thalmor army was destroyed, in a matter of weeks the Empire mustered enough force to undo everything that had taken the Dominion years to acheive. They also lost their best general, the one responsible for all the earlier success. They haven't been able to consolidate their position all that much since either, Valenwood and the Summerset isle are full of discontent and the Thalmor are a running a series of pogroms and purges to keep their grip on power in their homeland. This obviously drains resources and manpower, the Empire was battered and lost a lot its army but the destruction of Imperial forces was nowhere near as comprehensive as the destruction of the Aldmeri Dominions army. Almost every soldier committed to the campaign in Cyrodiil was lost. This was one of the reasons the Nords and Redguard where so angry, the war had turned around and the Empire was in the dominant position within Cyrodiil but the Nords and Redguard felt they where paying the price for the peace treaty and where being forced to give up everything they had fought so hard for. The Empire keeps claiming it was to prevent the destruction of the Empire, when in reality its only to protect Cyrodiil in the short term.

The Thalmor know they cannot win in an open war just yet, so does the Empire so both sides are watching each other and wary of provoking another war just yet. The Dominion is concentrating subterfuge and deceit, they are planning another war eventually. They call the great war the "first war with the Empire" which obviously shows their intentions, prolonging the war in Skyrim was one of their goals because it weakens both and either a united Empire or an independent Skyrim isnt something they are prepared to deal with.

 

[CloudAtlas]

(everything)

Plus, if you side with the Stormcloaks, and the rebellion succeeds, and Skyrim becomes independent - when the Thalmor start a new war against the Empire, what's to stop the Empire from guaranteeing Skyrim continued independence, in exchange for help in the war? The leaders of Skyrim might realize that Thalmor dominion isn't exactly something to look forward to, and agree to the deal.
And that's just one of many hypothetical possibilities.

It's just stupid to say that the argument for either side in the Skyrim civil war is obviously, objectively one-sided, no matter the perspective, and the Stormcloaks are utter morons for trying.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

These aren't really one-sided arguments. You're looking at two cases of extremist opinions, and saying that most people have moderate viewpoints. On every issue, that's the case. Most people are moderates who tend to drift toward the mean between both extremes in virtually every case. Claiming that "most people have moderate opinions when given a choice between extremes" is some kind of breaking revelation really isn't, I'm sorry to say.

A fair point.

However, couldn't you say that these are one sided arguments that just happen to have more than one side(normally three)?
Because in a lot of the games mentioned, you do have the "extremes", and the "moderate path" as the options.

For example; with Dragon age, you can support complete and total freedom for all mages, complete unquestioned control of the mages by the Templars, or the middle path where they work things out and both become happy.

Also, I still think you could argue the middle path favors the mages more than it does the Templars, as they still get freedom, just not without oversight, and the Templars still lose some of there control. Similar could be argued for HR as well.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

(everything)

Plus, if you side with the Stormcloaks, and the rebellion succeeds, and Skyrim becomes independent - when the Thalmor start a new war against the Empire, what's to stop the Empire from guaranteeing Skyrim continued independence, in exchange for help in the war? The leaders of Skyrim might realize that Thalmor dominion isn't exactly something to look forward to, and agree to the deal.
And that's just one of many hypothetical possibilities.

It's just stupid to say that the argument for either side in the Skyrim civil war is obviously, objectively one-sided, no matter the perspective, and the Stormcloaks are utter morons for trying.

Actually I think one of the things the stormcloaks were planning on doing was going after the Thalmor after they won the war. Not right after, obviously, but it was on their to do list.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

I'd say that discussions about favorite romances from Persona 3 and 4 tend to be quite one sided with people favoring Chie and Naoto more than anyone else.

The funniest thing is...none of those are canon, only Marie of Persona 4 Golden appears to be canon (none of the girls in Arena make an hint of being in a relationship with Yu)

Then again, all shipping fights are fucking pathetic.

Any theory you create, any ship you make, any plot point you hate, remember, I will always be there to foil you.

-Canon

I don't know. I once say an MLP shipping of a rock and a tree[sub](not a talking rock and tree, just a rock and a tree, but they did have names)[/sub].
There's.....Something about that...

Well in Skyrim I always found the civil war ridiculously one sided.

The Stormcloaks were basically dipshits and political terrorists without a worthwhile cause. So I naturally sided with the empire and stamped them out in the name of the glorious Emperor.

The Empire lost its way though, what about all the innocent Nords being dragged off and tortured to death by the Thalmor and with the Empires consent? What about all the Jarls smooching up to Elenwen and taking Thalmor gold in order to turn a blind eye? Hammerfell also seized independence because of this, Skyrim deserves the same.

I agree, but the Stormcloaks didn't care about that, they just wanted to put Ulfric on the throne to have their god back. What do you think happens after that? The empire sits back? The Thalmor just shrug and abandon it?

The Stormcloaks where talking about planning an invasion of the Summerset isle after they consolidate the Stormcloak position and rebuild Skyrim, so they fully intend to smash the Aldmeri Dominion. Could they do it? Possibly, Hammerfell fought them to a standstill on their own.

Imagine the Dragonborn leading the charge with a pack of Dragons at his command, the Thalmor wouldn't stand a chance.

While that is POSSIBLE, I don't find it likely having much of a chance for success. Hammerfell is different from Skyrim. For the stormcloaks to get to the Thalmor, they'd have to go through all of Hammerfell(some of which is Thalmor controlled), High Rock, or Cyrodiil(who has a peace treaty with them and just ended a war with Skyrim that they lost in this case).

Plus, even though Hammerfell did hold off the Thalmor, and stopped them advancing. They did still lose a fair amount of their land. Plus the Thalmor took on the whole of the Empire at one time, and kind of won(yes, not really because they are the strongest, but they are very crafty). So I don't have much faith that just one or two of the lands can take them on.

Except Black Marsh. xD Argonians Rule!
[sub]But really, if they can scare away the daedra, I think they can hadle the Thalmor.[/sub]

To be more realistic though, a reunited empire is probably the best bet.

 

[Xan Krieger]

I crush elves in every game involving them (except Dragon Age Origins because I need them) from W40K's eldar to the elder scrolls series.

Sooooooo, I take it that it's a safe assumption you've never played a Zelda game before? Or, at least, never completed one?

I played one a long time ago but only for a few minutes. I remember playing one on the nintendo 64 but it seemed boring (this being before I became racist, I blame W40K's eldar).

 

[shintakie10]

(everything)

Plus, if you side with the Stormcloaks, and the rebellion succeeds, and Skyrim becomes independent - when the Thalmor start a new war against the Empire, what's to stop the Empire from guaranteeing Skyrim continued independence, in exchange for help in the war? The leaders of Skyrim might realize that Thalmor dominion isn't exactly something to look forward to, and agree to the deal.
And that's just one of many hypothetical possibilities.

It's just stupid to say that the argument for either side in the Skyrim civil war is obviously, objectively one-sided, no matter the perspective, and the Stormcloaks are utter morons for trying.

Except for the fact that in order to actually do anythin, a Stormcloak army would need to march either through Cyrodil or through Hammerfell. Its rare that an unallied nation, especially one that quite literally just rebelled, would be allowed free access.

This also throws a whole wrench in the "We'll take the fight to the Dominion!" spiel that the Nords kept spoutin. They have to go through Cyrodil to do it. Either that means they have to conquer Cyrodil (not remotely likely as the Nords will have just gone through a civil war), go through Hammerfell (not a chance), or Cyrodil will have to be gracious enough to allow people who just rebelled against them to waltz right through their territory. Either of the options are ridiculous and just make it even more idiotic to join the Storm Cloaks.

Except Black Marsh. xD Argonians Rule!

Amusingly, I've felt for the longest time that the Argonians are the ones who will come out on top in all this. They control the entire eastern half of Tamriel now that they have Morrowind under their control. They're not directly allied with either the Empire or the Dominion and completely avoided any damage from both the Oblivion crisis while Cyrodil and Skyrim got completely thrashed (supposedly other places did as well, but there's no historical records of it). Not only that, but now they're almost entirely united under a single banner because of the Oblivion crisis instead of bein mostly just warring tribes.

On top of that, they're completely seperated from the civil war in Skyrim while every other political faction has some sort of fallout from it.

So yeah. Argonians are goin to control Tamriel by the end of it all. Wait and see.

Fun tidbit I read while I was browsin the Elder Scrolls Wiki in order to learn more.

The Argonian forces apparently managed to flood into Oblivion itself, fighting and winning against the Daedra on their own turf. The Dremora lieutenants were forced to close their own Gates to prevent being overrun, something unheard of anywhere else.

That's right. The Argonians pushed back so hard that the Daedra actually ran the fuck away as fast as they could. No one pulled that off. Not the Nords, not the Dominion, not even the hero of Tamriel was able to push back so ferociously that the Daedra willingly closed their own gates in order to keep themselves from bein completely slaughtered.

Seriously. The only logical choice is to side with the Argonians from now on which makes me extremely annoyed that they're not one of the playable factions in Elders Scrolls online.

 

[talker]

That said, this perception could be a bit bias because it's based on how the game frames the argument. Showing most mages asking for just a few more basic rights, and higher ranked Templars unwilling to give an inch. Because while it wasn't shown as much, there were Templars who believed that the mages could be trusted with more freedom, and there were some mages who probably should be locked up for good.

Again, this is all kind of based of what I have observed. In truth, it isn't impossible that I have it backwards, or like you said, the arguments may not really be that one sided.

There were plenty of examples of mages going crazy and being a threat to botht themselves and others, like the whole thing with the Circle, or Connor, or the whole country of Tevinter where mages rule. I think the game did a good job presenting the issue.

I might not agree with the Templars, but I get where they are coming from.

agreed, and there are some Templars who can see the Mages' point of view, but a lot of them a radicals who want to either lock up the mages or go Dalek on their asses.

 

[J Tyran]

While that is POSSIBLE, I don't find it likely having much of a chance for success. Hammerfell is different from Skyrim. For the stormcloaks to get to the Thalmor, they'd have to go through all of Hammerfell(some of which is Thalmor controlled), High Rock, or Cyrodiil(who has a peace treaty with them and just ended a war with Skyrim that they lost in this case).

Plus, even though Hammerfell did hold off the Thalmor, and stopped them advancing. They did still lose a fair amount of their land. Plus the Thalmor took on the whole of the Empire at one time, and kind of won(yes, not really because they are the strongest, but they are very crafty). So I don't have much faith that just one or two of the lands can take them on.

Except Black Marsh. xD Argonians Rule!
[sub]But really, if they can scare away the daedra, I think they can hadle the Thalmor.[/sub]

To be more realistic though, a reunited empire is probably the best bet.

It all depends on whether the Dovahkhiin gets involved or not and who he/she joins, If they did it pretty much guarantees that side victory. It would be Alessia or Talos all over again but even more powerful, neither of those could command Dragons the way the "last" Dragonborn can.

It could turn pretty ugly too, if the Dovakhiin carried out the Tyranny of the Sun prophecy and became a Dragon riding Vampire Lord everyone is in trouble whether they are Thalmor, Nord, Redguard or Imperial.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

While that is POSSIBLE, I don't find it likely having much of a chance for success. Hammerfell is different from Skyrim. For the stormcloaks to get to the Thalmor, they'd have to go through all of Hammerfell(some of which is Thalmor controlled), High Rock, or Cyrodiil(who has a peace treaty with them and just ended a war with Skyrim that they lost in this case).

Plus, even though Hammerfell did hold off the Thalmor, and stopped them advancing. They did still lose a fair amount of their land. Plus the Thalmor took on the whole of the Empire at one time, and kind of won(yes, not really because they are the strongest, but they are very crafty). So I don't have much faith that just one or two of the lands can take them on.

Except Black Marsh. xD Argonians Rule!
[sub]But really, if they can scare away the daedra, I think they can hadle the Thalmor.[/sub]

To be more realistic though, a reunited empire is probably the best bet.

It all depends on whether the Dovahkhiin gets involved or not and who he/she joins, If they did it pretty much guarantees that side victory. It would be Alessia or Talos all over again but even more powerful, neither of those could command Dragons the way the "last" Dragonborn can.

It could turn pretty ugly too, if the Dovakhiin carried out the Tyranny of the Sun prophecy and became a Dragon riding Vampire Lord everyone is in trouble whether they are Thalmor, Nord, Redguard or Imperial.

Possibly. I guess it all depends on what will become cannon.

Siding with the Empire, siding with the Stormcloaks, xD or everything being cannon again! ;p

 

[J Tyran]

While that is POSSIBLE, I don't find it likely having much of a chance for success. Hammerfell is different from Skyrim. For the stormcloaks to get to the Thalmor, they'd have to go through all of Hammerfell(some of which is Thalmor controlled), High Rock, or Cyrodiil(who has a peace treaty with them and just ended a war with Skyrim that they lost in this case).

Plus, even though Hammerfell did hold off the Thalmor, and stopped them advancing. They did still lose a fair amount of their land. Plus the Thalmor took on the whole of the Empire at one time, and kind of won(yes, not really because they are the strongest, but they are very crafty). So I don't have much faith that just one or two of the lands can take them on.

Except Black Marsh. xD Argonians Rule!
[sub]But really, if they can scare away the daedra, I think they can hadle the Thalmor.[/sub]

To be more realistic though, a reunited empire is probably the best bet.

It all depends on whether the Dovahkhiin gets involved or not and who he/she joins, If they did it pretty much guarantees that side victory. It would be Alessia or Talos all over again but even more powerful, neither of those could command Dragons the way the "last" Dragonborn can.

It could turn pretty ugly too, if the Dovakhiin carried out the Tyranny of the Sun prophecy and became a Dragon riding Vampire Lord everyone is in trouble whether they are Thalmor, Nord, Redguard or Imperial.

Possibly. I guess it all depends on what will become cannon.

Siding with the Empire, siding with the Stormcloaks, xD or everything being cannon again! ;p

I hope they don't, another warp in the west would suck.

 

[Cecilo]

I would have liked to have chosen a third choice in Skyrim. Screw both of the factions, I'm making my own, maybe try and see if Paarthurnax, would be willing to let me recruit some of his dragons into my new empire. In exchange for a nice place to settle down, plenty of mountain ranges after all, They can help fight the Aldmeri Dominion, while not being hunted down by me or the Blades.

Having created a new empire, the Nords would be free to worship whoever they wanted, I wouldn't be bound by any of their treaties, and I can get rid of some of the less than useful nobles in the process. Seems like the better solution all around.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

There's a very good reason DE:HR seems one sided.

And that's because it is.

For one, you're literally forced to be augmented and it has not one, not two, but zero side effects. This means that instead of a realistic debate it's instead a matter of the transhumanists automatically being on the side of the player and the naturalists being wrong.

A good point. Sometimes a game has it's own message, and thus can be a bit bias in how it presents the argument.
That said, it is an issue that may soon be a reality.

Also, in the game it does show how the augmentations are being used to control peoples lives who are not free of the side effects. So I wouldn't say it's completely one sided, but you could easily argue it's a bit lopsided at the very least.

It really isn't a good point; the question of cost of transhumanism isn't in the toll it takes on the body. At the very heart of the debate is the second most fundamental question of all philosophy: What does it mean to be human? Answering that question has been the work of philosophers, warriors, holy men, workers and kings but the fact remains that while history is bursting with possible answers none of them are quite prepared to confront the existential problem represented by Human Revolution.

Augmentation can eliminate any weakness. Virtually any illness present in the game's fiction can be effectively combated with technology. Frailty and strength, health and sickness, even power and helplessness have become goods to be bartered for at a reasonable price. So much of the human experience is tied to tragedy and as a species we are as apt to remember our great moments of pain as we are for those moments of victory. Things fundamental to the human experience are endangered by augmentation.

The core question, then, is simply this: what do you become when you shed all those trappings and experiences of being human? How important is that huaman experience to your fundamental humanity? It's an existential dilemma that naturally is not well suited to translation into a game mechanic. Your character sees no physical ills because he possesses a genetic abnormality that ensures he doesn't reject his augmentations. In this, he is simply the lynchpin that the plot revolves around; fundamental to the story but far from the focus. He simply represents a technological advance that eliminates the last logical thing standing in the way of widespread augmentation and, all told, is the least interesting part of the tale. Once the good reasons are eliminated, once nothing is left to truly resist that human drive for progress at any cost, what stands in the way?

Is hand wringing over the existential quandary justified? It's hard to say. Humanity has only ever recorded what it's like to be human. It's impossible to say what being not-human would be like and if the exchange is worth the toll.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Is hand wringing over the existential quandary justified? It's hard to say. Humanity has only ever recorded what it's like to be human. It's impossible to say what being not-human would be like and if the exchange is worth the toll.

But it might not be long until we have to ask ourselves those questions.

People already do mental or physical doping today, the expand their capabilities beyond what is naturally possible. Now the long-term effects are good reasons not to do that, but what if those negative effects can be eliminated? Will I be forced to dope to be able to compete at the workplace?

And what about fiddling with procreation? We might be able to identify what genes lead to what in a fertilized egg in the not so far away future, at least to some degree. Then parents might only select eggs that promise healthy, intelligent, attractive offspring. If they can afford it, that is. We, who are living now on this world, might end up mighty ugly, frail, and dumb in comparison.

Granted, that's not the same as augmentation with machinery and such, but it's not that different either.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

(everything)

Except Black Marsh. xD Argonians Rule!

Amusingly, I've felt for the longest time that the Argonians are the ones who will come out on top in all this. They control the entire eastern half of Tamriel now that they have Morrowind under their control. They're not directly allied with either the Empire or the Dominion and completely avoided any damage from both the Oblivion crisis while Cyrodil and Skyrim got completely thrashed (supposedly other places did as well, but there's no historical records of it). Not only that, but now they're almost entirely united under a single banner because of the Oblivion crisis instead of bein mostly just warring tribes.

On top of that, they're completely seperated from the civil war in Skyrim while every other political faction has some sort of fallout from it.

So yeah. Argonians are goin to control Tamriel by the end of it all. Wait and see.

Fun tidbit I read while I was browsin the Elder Scrolls Wiki in order to learn more.

The Argonian forces apparently managed to flood into Oblivion itself, fighting and winning against the Daedra on their own turf. The Dremora lieutenants were forced to close their own Gates to prevent being overrun, something unheard of anywhere else.

That's right. The Argonians pushed back so hard that the Daedra actually ran the fuck away as fast as they could. No one pulled that off. Not the Nords, not the Dominion, not even the hero of Tamriel was able to push back so ferociously that the Daedra willingly closed their own gates in order to keep themselves from bein completely slaughtered.

Seriously. The only logical choice is to side with the Argonians from now on which makes me extremely annoyed that they're not one of the playable factions in Elders Scrolls online.

I really hope the next Elder Scrolls is in Black Marsh. That place just sounds so cool.

Spoiler: Plus, I want to see some kids that aren't nord/imperial kids. Yeah I know Braith was a redguard, but compare her complexion to her parents. It's weird. [spoiler=I mean, look at this Argonian family.

:3 So cute.

I know it's not really a big deal but it's a little thing that bugged me in skyrim. Yeah, it's the home of the nords, but other races have lived there a long time too. No elf children is somewhat forgivable because they live so long, and don't have kids that often.

Anyway, to the point about Elder Scrolls Online. It is 1,000 or so years before skyrim(meaning about 800 before oblivion), so the Argonians aren't what they are now in terms of political power. But you can still play as one at least, and they do have their own group faction.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

There's a very good reason DE:HR seems one sided.

And that's because it is.

For one, you're literally forced to be augmented and it has not one, not two, but zero side effects. This means that instead of a realistic debate it's instead a matter of the transhumanists automatically being on the side of the player and the naturalists being wrong.

A good point. Sometimes a game has it's own message, and thus can be a bit bias in how it presents the argument.
That said, it is an issue that may soon be a reality.

Also, in the game it does show how the augmentations are being used to control peoples lives who are not free of the side effects. So I wouldn't say it's completely one sided, but you could easily argue it's a bit lopsided at the very least.

It really isn't a good point; the question of cost of transhumanism isn't in the toll it takes on the body.

I kind of meant more that the games may sometimes favor one side over the other sometimes, but I see what you're talking about.

Augmentation can eliminate any weakness. Virtually any illness present in the game's fiction can be effectively combated with technology. Frailty and strength, health and sickness, even power and helplessness have become goods to be bartered for at a reasonable price. So much of the human experience is tied to tragedy and as a species we are as apt to remember our great moments of pain as we are for those moments of victory. Things fundamental to the human experience are endangered by augmentation.

True. However, many augmentations act not as just improvements, but as replacements for parts the person has lost/don't work as well as they should. Some apparently work just as well as the real parts, that you could say the only real difference is that the replacements just happen to be fake.

In that way was anything really lost, in terms of one's humanity? You could say that with this use, we can bring people who have lost limbs, can hear, see, or have week hearts to a higher(and normal) quality of life.

If someone gets robot eyes because they are blind, do they lose some of their humanity, or do they gain some through being able to experience life with a new(and "normal") perspective?

Then again, perhaps I am mixing up feeling human, with feeling happy.

As for the rich getting augments just because they can, and it makes things easier? Well, I personally don't see that much difference between that, and those so rich now they can afford to fly everywhere in a helicopter if they so wish.