Poll: were world war 2 and the cold war clear cut battles between good and evil?

HerrBobo

New member
Jun 3, 2008
920
0
0
mega48man said:
so escapits, i have a debate question! i'm having a hard time choosing a side to argue for in this question: were world war 2 and the cold war clear cut battles between good and evil? why or why not?

it's the cold war part that gets me, i started off thinking that it wasn't clear cut, but i'm beginning to think the opposite.

if want to make an essay of it, please use supporting arguments with citation of your sources, you don't have to of course.
No.

The very fact that you asked the question of WW2 and The Cold War illustrates the reason why I picked the no option.

I'm assuming that you are from the West and from an "allied" nation.

OK, so, if we take WW2 and say that the major Nations of the US, UK, France and Russia were the "good" side and they defeated the "evil" nations of Germany, Italy and Japan in a war that lasted form 1939-1945.

Where is becomes apparent that there is no "good or evil" in war is in the next part of your question, the Cold War. Why, because, accord to the West, in the course of one year, Russia is now on the "evil" side. How did happen in the course of one year?

Simple answer, id didn't Russia was never "evil" or "good" to begin with. It was simply a Nation at war for a whole raft of reasons, just like the US, Germany, Poland and and all the others.

There is no evil nations or "sides in a war only evil people. When it comes to nations there are only winner and losers.
 

NotSoLoneWanderer

New member
Jul 5, 2011
765
0
0
Valanthe said:
In before some clod tries to look smart and say it's all a matter of perspective.

World War two was fought because Germany and it's allies started attacking and conquering their neighbours, and those neighbours had allies who came to their defense (or, in the case of one particular country, rolled in late to the party and took all the credit. Whereas the Cold War was two global super powers engaged in a nuclear penis measuring contest, with some proxy wars funded among.

So in my opinion, WWII was, and the Cold War was not.
Ninja'd to the upmost extent of Ninja-ing.
 

Da Orky Man

Yeah, that's me
Apr 24, 2011
2,107
0
0
Valanthe said:
In before some clod tries to look smart and say it's all a matter of perspective.

World War two was fought because Germany and it's allies started attacking and conquering their neighbours, and those neighbours had allies who came to their defense (or, in the case of one particular country, rolled in late to the party and took all the credit. Whereas the Cold War was two global super powers engaged in a nuclear penis measuring contest, with some proxy wars funded among.

So in my opinion, WWII was, and the Cold War was not.
Exactly this. It is quite evident that the Axis were the aggressors in WW2. The UK had a deal with Belgium to defend them should they be attacked, and Germany attacked Belgium. So we declared war. The Soviets were also attacked first, as was America.

In the Cold War, it was a simpler case of, as Valanthe put it, two superpowers having a dick waving contest, occasinally paying other countries to fight the other one.
 

Rednog

New member
Nov 3, 2008
3,567
0
0
People often forget that we look back on history through our modern cultural lens.
Realize that societal/racial/cultural/social views of the world were quite different than what it is today and that often puts people in certain mindsets.
And because of this I think from our modern view you can paint it as a good vs evil; but back then for those people it really wasn't a good vs evil scenario.
 

Da Orky Man

Yeah, that's me
Apr 24, 2011
2,107
0
0
thaluikhain said:
Azahul said:
thaluikhain said:
Azahul said:
crazyarms33 said:
Mate, the US's involvement in World War II was important. There is indeed a chance that the war would not have been won without them. And if Britain hadn't been in the war, then there's a good chance the war would not have been won either. And if Russia hadn't been attacked and brought into the war, there's a good chance the war would not have been won. The list goes on. There's a good number of nations without which Germany and its allies would have had a much easier time. Let's just split the credit evenly and call it a day. No one nation is responsible for the Allied victory in World War II. It's why it's called an Allied victory.
I'd disagree that all Allied nations were vital to victory, but they were certainly useful, yeah.
I wouldn't say they were all vital, no, but the ones I listed were so far as I can tell. Arguing over who should get the most credit out of the three of them is ridiculous. In any case, this is not the topic for this discussion. I stand by my previous point. No one in any war can ever be called "good", certainly not anyone in a war where targetting civilians became so widespread and acceptable.
Well, I'd say that the UK wasn't essential for eventual "victory".

As I understand it, however, civilians weren't targeted (at least not by Western allies so much) per se, it's just that civilian deaths stopped being a reason not to do things the military wanted to do for other reasons.
You know that at one point the UK was the only one fighting? Neither America nor Russia had come into it yet, and France had been defeated, so Britain stood alone. Should they have fallen, then the Axis would have immediately won. Although every nation of the Allies was essential, I'd say that Russia managed most. They kicked so much German ass they had to order special cream to stop their boots from smelling of fart.
 
Jul 5, 2009
1,342
0
0
I'm of the opinion that WWII was but the cold war wasn't.
In WWII the Japanese and the Nazi's were fucking insane,(no one seems to recognise how fucked up Japan acted in that war), but the cold war was a different kettle of fish. The USSR were open assholes but the American's pretended to be the do-gooders but were secretly just as big assholes.
 

ImmortalDrifter

New member
Jan 6, 2011
662
0
0
Da Orky Man said:
In the Cold War, it was a simpler case of, as Valanthe put it, two superpowers having a dick waving contest, occasinally paying other countries to fight the other one.
Or if you wanted to not sound like a douche you could just say a war of political ideology. :/
 

Vegosiux

New member
May 18, 2011
4,381
0
0
History is written by the victor.

Had the Nazis won WW2, they'd end up being the good guys, because they'd make sure to come across that way, what with the canvass and scissors in their hands.

The conflicts were between the winning side and the losing side. Historically, the winners are always "good", the losers are always "evil", no matter who they actually were - that's just how human society operates, on the level of the conflict, of course. It's easier to make a judgement in a local-scale conflict you're not part of, of course, but a worldwide conflict? Well, not many impartial observers there, not even Switzerland, so the good guy ends up being whoever won the war.

That said, I'm pretty glad that Nazis didn't win WW2.
 

Darth_Dude

New member
Jul 11, 2008
1,302
0
0
Tanksie said:
the nazis weren't evil.they banned smoking and gave animals rights. they also invented the jet engine. the russians and americans were more evil than the nazis
Did you forget about the 11 million people they gassed and murdered in death camps? Or did that one slip you by?
 

Azahul

New member
Apr 16, 2011
419
0
0
thaluikhain said:
Well, I'd say that the UK wasn't essential for eventual "victory".

As I understand it, however, civilians weren't targeted (at least not by Western allies so much) per se, it's just that civilian deaths stopped being a reason not to do things the military wanted to do for other reasons.
Without Britain tying up heir resources, they could have turned the full might of the Germany military on Russia a lot earlier. Germany would have had a far greater access to the oceans, and would have had greater freedom to intervene in the Pacific. I wouldn't underestimate the impact Britain had on the war.

As for not targetting civilians, that's ridiculous. Churchill himself advocated a campaign of terror to lower the morale of the German population. Throughout the latter years of the war, Allied planes specifically targetted civilian population centres. And then there's the atomic bombs. It'd be rather easy to find locations less heavily populated by civilians, but nope, America hit two major cities with them. It's pretty clear that even the "good" allies (the ones that aren't Russia, according to the Western world) were pretty damned evil.
 

Wintermoot

New member
Aug 20, 2009
6,563
0
0
in WW2 it was clear who was good and who was bad the cold war not so.
the cold war was more a fight over how to run a country (communism VS kapitalism).
PS that doesn't mean both sides in both conflicts are entirely innocent.
 

BathorysGraveland

New member
Dec 7, 2011
1,000
0
0
No, to me, no war is 'good vs evil'. War isn't as straight forward as that and it certainly is no game or film.

Atrocities, war crimes and brutal actions were carried out by both the Allies and the Axis in WWII, so that already takes away 'good vs bad' right there. You also, can't for shame call the entirety of Germany as 'evil' either, since most of them were simple people fighting for their nation, families and many also because they simply didn't have a choice. Was Hitler evil? That is debatable and that is up for each person to decide for themselves, but I think it's more than obvious that Stalin was no better.

Then you have Hiroshima... no one that commits such an act like that can be considered 'good'. So I go with option two, a simple 'no'.
 

OneCatch

New member
Jun 19, 2010
1,111
0
0
Skipping the usual 'America was late' stuff I'm going to shamelessly reference wikipedia because it's accessible and so I don't look biased.
I'm also assuming that we're using a 'western oriented, freedom loving, human rights respecting' view of good, and the opposite for evil. I'm not going to start on about whether good and evil are subjective, or if the ancient Romans, Galactic Empire, Mordor or *insert different culture here* would agree.

The axis were evil, and stopping them was obviously a good thing. Stalin wasn't that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge] nice [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor] though (he was probably responsible for more deaths that Hitler), and we were allied with him, and did a pretty good job of whitewashing [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_propaganda_during_World_War_II#Soviet_Union] his various unpleasantries.

The western allies did some pretty morally dubious things as well. Tokyo, Hamburg and Dresden firebombings come to mind. These were arguably a necessary evil, but targeting civilians for the purposes of terror can never be considered 'good' per se.

The fact that we allowed plenty of people who were clear war criminals escape conviction [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip] out of convenience was not an act of good versus evil (Ex-Nazi scientists basically sorted out both the US and Soviet space programs). Similarly the lack of war crimes convictions against the Japanese is pretty astounding. Though we gained [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731] something there too. In fact, most of the postwar actions of all of the allies can be seen as a case of trying to consolidate their own power, not necessarily trying to do good or bring justice. The carving up of Europe between East and West speaks volumes about this. Even the fact that the big five have a veto at the UN was so that the allies could retain a degree of power over a changing world.

So World War 2 was a necessary fight against a very real evil, but the Allies were absolutely willing to do fairly nasty things to further their own ends (not generally 'for the good of mankind' either). The Soviet side of the alliance could in no way be described as 'good' at all! There is however, no doubt, that the world was in better shape in 1950 than it would have been if the Axis had won in 1945.

On to the cold war. This one is much less clear cut. The Soviet and Chinese governments were dictatorships with little regard for freedom of speech or human rights. This is obviously bad, so one instinctively sides with the West. But if you look a bit deeper, we've been guilty of some startling hypocrisies as well.
There are multiple instances [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_U.S._regime_change_actions#During_the_Cold_War] during the Cold War when the West installed puppet dictatorships to try to prevent the spread of communism. In a lot of instances, these dictatorships were far more brutal and repressive than the communist governments they were supposed to stop. The USA had a particular habit of using the CIA to covertly fund rebel organisations in order to hinder communist governments. In a couple of instances, DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED governments were overthrown because they were seen as too left wing (or even because the democratic government in question traded with a communist power instead of with US companies). Overthrowing a democratic government is not a 'good' act on whatever grounds.

Aside from that, it makes for a supremely stupid statement: "Yeah, we removed their right to vote in the name of democracy. We paid for a dictator to imprison, torture and kill them in the name of freedom"

*** [Aside: In the later Cold wWr, and to this day, American intervention tended to be economic, but produces similar effects. There are plenty of instances of American companies promoting human rights abuses [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_violations_in_Indonesia] in order to make things easier for themselves. The US government can tend to turn a blind eye [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil#Foreign_business_practices] to this kind of thing when they have economic interests in the regions. This isn't the action of a 'good' side. /Aside]***

Of course, it wasn't just the Americans. We in the UK were up to our eyes in it as well. Trying to gain a measure of economic control over the remnants of the British Empire led to some pretty [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat] disgusting [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising] things. The attempt to play god with Palestine and what would become the Pakistan-India border area means that ethnic tension exists to this day. We were egged on by the US because they preferred Colonialism to Communism.
The other colonial powers did much the same, and in a fair number of instances were worse than the UK.

And that's just foreign policy. Let's not forget that the US in the 1950's was hardly a utopia worthy of export. McCarthyism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism] was rampant, anyone thought to be even slightly left wing was mercilessly harassed by borderline vigilantes and law enforcement agencies. Literally thousands [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Victims_of_McCarthyism] of people were fired from jobs or imprisoned, many on very tenuous grounds and with no legal recourse. Even being found to be gay or a civil rights activist could result in a person being labelled subversive, and therefore a communist. Even if not strictly against the letter of the Constitution, it still represented a radical departure from the spirit of democracy and freedom of speech.
Concurrent with this, the US fought wars in Korea and Vietnam, ostensibly for freedom and fairness, while black people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-Americans_in_the_United_States_military_before_desegregation] were denied equal rights at home. Black servicemen died for rights that they themselves did not have. (This extends all the way back to WW2 and before)

I'm not saying that the communist states were any better, they usually weren't. But they at least tried to make other countries have the same system as what they had domestically, however misguided it was. Whereas the West all to often did its level best to persuade the world that they were acting for the common good, when it was purely anti-communist sentiment motivating them. Intervention from a flawed superpower led to far greater harm coming to a multitude of smaller countries that were unlucky enough to be used in proxy wars for the most tenuous of reasons. It's not so much a case of 'good versus evil' or even 'evil versus evil'.
It was just a bloody mess.




***EDIT: I've just thought that I've said In my first line that I don't want to be biased, and then talked almost exclusively about the West being horrible. This isn't because I think, or want to imply that the West was altogether worse than Communism. It's clear that if the communists had 'won' we'd have no democracy, which would have been a decidedly BAD outcome!

It's just that everyone already hears about how terrible communism was, so I thought I'd talk primarily about the abuses committed by the Western world, that you tend not hear about so much.

I was going to talk about both originally, but figured I've made quite a wall of text anyway, and it really doesn't need to be twice as long! ***
 

FallenTraveler

New member
Jun 11, 2010
661
0
0
WWII was definitely the closest we've come to a true fight between good and evil. Yes, the Allies were not the best to jews, and we still did some pretty mean shit, but it was nothing compared to killing 11 million people for the sake of the "aryan" race.

The Cold War, in my humble opinion, was just silly, both parties shuld have just calmed down and let each other live, instead we faced fear for 40 years and nothing came of it. I'm an American, and as an American am inclined to side with my own country though.

America! Fuck YEAH!!!11!!!!!!1!!!!
 

Whytewulf

New member
Dec 20, 2009
357
0
0
Neverhoodian said:
No conflict between human beings is a clear "good vs. evil" fight, but World War II comes the closest. The governments of Nazi Germany, fascist Italy and Imperial Japan committed truly heinous atrocities against soldiers and civilians alike. The defeat of such regimes was truly worthy of praise. However, your basic soldier, sailor or aviator was (usually) not guilty of such actions. Most of them were simply fighting out of a sense of duty and patriotism as well as for the safety of their fellow soldiers and loved ones back home. The Allies weren't exactly perfect either (Soviet atrocities in east Germany and Prussia, Japanese-American internments, American "Jim Crow" practices, etc.).

The Cold War was definitely more of a "shades of grey" affair. While I would argue that the initial mistrust in the Soviet Union was justified (Stalin wasn't exactly a paragon of virtue, after all), in the end both sides were guilty of acting in a less than satisfactory manner. The brutal Soviet suppression of uprisings in eastern Europe and the CIA supporting ruthless right-wing dictators like Ferdinand Marcos are just two of many examples of the various misdeeds committed.
I like this response, and probably couldn't say it better, so I'd like to just quote it and give it a thumbs up!!

On thing on the cold "war" there was a lot of nuances around smaller countries about fighting the "red" that shouldn't be forgotton.
 

orangeban

New member
Nov 27, 2009
1,442
0
0
Neither were clear cut. Now, for WW2 no-one will deny that the Nazis are evil, but we didn't go to war with them because they were evil. We went to war with them because they were breaking the Versailles Treaty. We weren't concerned about their plans to persecute Jews, we cared that Hitler wanted to create "living space for Germans".

For the Cold War, the Soviets did messed up stuff, America did messed up stuff, the Soviets were probably worse, but it certainly wasn't "good and evil".
 

dyre

New member
Mar 30, 2011
2,178
0
0
World War II was a battle between evil and evil. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Imperial Japan were straight-up, innocent-slaughtering evils, but so was Stalin's Russia. Chiang-kai shek's China wasn't great either...just a bunch of corrupt warlords who didn't give a shit about their country. And let's not forget colonial Britain and France (and, somewhat, USA), though they were of a much lower level of evil than Germany or Russia. Russia and China, however, did most of the fighting, and they were pretty bad themselves.

Cold War was a battle between evil and slightly lesser evil, I'd say. The US intervened in countries, overthrew popular, often democratically-elected, nationalist leaders, and put up anti-communist tyrants instead, often resulting in thousands of political enemies being slaughtered. The Soviets took a lot of countries by force and brutally put down rebellions. I'd say that's slightly worse than the US tactic, since some of the dictators we supported weren't quite that bad (the Shah in Iran introduced some social/economic reforms; Dien in S. Vietnam was too incompetent to do any real harm), so the US was the lesser evil.

edit, actually this guy summarizes it a lot better than I did
OneCatch said:
epic snip for epic post
 

veloper

New member
Jan 20, 2009
4,597
0
0
WW2 comes closest, so I voted that.

Tha nazis were the agressors and the instigators of the war, not the allies. Nothing benign about the way they went about creating their empire.

Since good can be relative (to evil), the allies didn't need to be saints for ww2 to be considered something of a good vs evil war.
I reckon it was a good thing the US (finally) decided to get involved in it, or Eurasia might have become totalitarian forever.

US vs USSR is a grey area. The communist ideal in itself is cute. Capitalism can be grey. Both contenders had just enough responsibility left in them to only wage war by proxy and not start a nuclear war.