Poll: What do you think about circumcision?

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Sewora

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The modern world doesn't amputate healhty bodyparts from infants. Because we're developed, intelligent and has had thousands of years of experience.

USA is getting close to 300 years, they are the new kid on the block and they don't have the value of experience telling them how wrong it is to mutilate children. We've been through worse, so we've learned to treat people with respect, even infants.
 

SciMal

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Sewora said:
You wouldn't even see the difference between a circumsized and uncircumsized erect penis.
The foreskin is short, so it's automatically retracted when erect.
I registered for the forums so I could reply here. Nothing...NOTHING gets my goat going like misinformation and outright lies.

The foreskin is short, but the penis also isn't erect all the time. At other times it's very noticeable, and I've heard both sides from women; so this is a non-issue.

And it's all based on where you're from. Women in my country think circumsized penises are weird and ugly. No one even knows how to give a circumsized guy a handjob because it's awkward.
Now that's just stupid. A handjob is performed pretty much the same way regardless of the foreskin's intactness. It'd be like saying, "I don't know how to use soap because it's not in bar form." You still rub-a-dub-dub until the job's done either way.

Oh, and those supposed studies of yours doesn't exist. Because it's the opposite. Again, let me say the same thing others have said.

Uncircumsized penis has 24000 nerve endings.
Circumsized penis has 4000 nerve endings.
In comparison, the clitoris has 8000 nerve endings.
Holy fracknuts, this stuff again... Okay, every single inch of your skin is absolutely and irrefutably suffused with nerve endings. Mechanoreceptors, thermoreceptors, free nerve endings (pain receptors), corpuscles, and the list continues.

More nerve endings =/= more pleasure.

In particular, you're probably talking about early findings from Taylor (1996) and Sorrells (2006), the latter of which concluded:

"The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis."

What Sorrells did not conclude (but discussed at-length in the study) was sexual satisfaction and circumcision.

It is scientifically proven in every single possible way that uncircumsized men feel alot more sexual sensation.
I (Sorrels 2006) can't (Bleustein 2003) believe (Bleustein 2005) you (Payne 2007) say (Collins 2002) so (Senkul 2004) much (Kigozi 2007) bullshite (Senol 2008).

Especially when the American Academy of Family Physicians disagrees with you (2007).

The foreskin is the most sensitive sexual organ on the human body.
Do I even have to point out that your lips and hands are, BY FAR, more sensitive than any other organ in your body; conveniently represented by the Cortical Homonculus drawings of the somatotopic mapping of the Primary motor cortex? If you don't believe me, feel free to borrow my Neuroscience book ("Neuroscience", Bears, Connors, Paradiso - Third Edition).

It is by itself enough to make a man orgasm. It isn't just a useless piece of skin, it's a very important part of the male body.[/quote[

I also won't delve into how male orgasm can occur for different reasons, and you don't even need to stimulate the penis itself for it to occur. Hell, you don't even have to be awake...

Oddly enough, male sexual arousal and orgasm are more complicated than comedians would have you believe.

In comparison it would be like removing the clitoris on a woman. You'd still be able to have sex, but you wouldn't enjoy clitoral stimulation.
NO. NO. NO. Not only are you being completely unfair to the thousands of women who are forced to undergo female circumcision, you're wrong in one very IMPORTANT way:

The proper comparison would be the clitoral hood, which is the analogous developmental organ for women. The clitoris is the female analog of the male glans (the head of the penis). Removing the clitoris is "Female Circumcision" and is extremely detrimental/harmful to the enjoyment of sex; the same would happen if you cut the entire head of the penis off, and not just the foreskin.



FINALLY: As a circumcised male, I can tell you this - If I had not been circumcised right after my birth, I would never choose to undergo it. You heal less efficiently the older you get, and more importantly; I don't remember a thing. I'm pretty sure I'd remember having a chunk of my willy sliced off at 18 if my parents hadn't chosen for me.

My personal opinion is that the whole argument is ridiculous.

First, if you're NOT a guy - you need to find a chair and sit this argument out. You don't have ANY idea how sex feels to a guy, you don't have ANY idea what we are/aren't missing out on. You can sympathize with a side and show support, but you don't EXPERIENCE it. It's the equivalent of trying to describe menstrual cramps or pregnancy to a guy; you have to feel it to know it.

Second; it's not THAT important. There have been dozens of studies conducted. The majority find no difference in sexual satisfaction, no difference in arousal, and no difference in "uptime." The chance that something major (permanent mutilation, death, etc.) goes wrong during circumcision operations is VERY slim (<1% - other figures you'll find on the web which state it as being between 2% - 10% include things like 'profuse bleeding' as a side-effect).

Third; There are MINOR medical reasons for either argument. Circumcision favors slightly better hygiene and has a lower rate of STD contraction (which doesn't matter much anyways, as you should be using protection regardless). An intact foreskin offers slightly fewer issues that come about as a result of constant diaper/clothes rubbing while a toddler, and slightly delays vaginal dryness during intercourse.

If you happen to bathe more than once a week and use lube while having sex, you've pretty much negated any advantages either has.

I say, let the father of the boy choose. The father will (ostensibly) be the male role-model for the young man, and should utilize his own experiences and research to determine the outcome. Since I hope I've made it clear that any perceived advantages OR disadvantages are pretty much bunk in a modern society that has access to soap and Astroglide, I would be more concerned about the child's psychological development and any disjunction between his anatomy and his male role model's anatomy than anything else. It can be very disconcerting to grow up different than your father. Before others start to chime in, I do believe the father should include the desires of the mother, but like I said before; it's not really a "women's issue."
 

Kahunaburger

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Ultratwinkie said:
The rate of AIDS in uncircumcised countries are far lower than circumcised ones.
You seem to be confusing a cause with an effect, here. The rate of people who die from cancer is higher in people who go through chemo than people who do not go through chemo.
 

mrblakemiller

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The-Epicly-Named-Man said:
Well it's obviously the individual's choice. I don't really think there's way to explain that in a way someone on this thread already has, so I'll leave this here instead:
I will add this: I hope Hitchens has never laughed at a joke predicated on murder or rape, or hell, any death for that matter. If he has, he's an enormous hypocrite. There's no logic behind saying that what a person finds funny explains anything about their moral character. I personally have the ability to divest myself from a joke, to realize that the people getting killed or mutilated or anything else are not real people. In fact, I'll bet you anything Hitchens has laughed at one of the many "crucifixion of Jesus" jokes out there. I can't (or at least don't care enough to try to) prove it, but I think it makes great food for thought.
 

phatdog45

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I dont have a good answer. I guess it's something a man should be able to choose, but at the same time I'm damn happy to be circumsized and there's no way I would have had it done today if it hadn't already been done. fuck no i aint gonna let someone take a scaple to my dick! but since it already happened, I'm cool
 

schiz0phren1c

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wow this again,
I will say what I usually do(minus the rant)
hell no! parents should not do this,
as many have said it should be left up to somebody when they are old enough to decide,
as someone else pointed out if it was in your religion to snip off the end of your baby's nose,part of their ear or the tip of their finger the doctor would call the god damn cops!

Their are NO benefits to circumcision unless you suffer from a condition(I forget the name) where your foreskin wont pull back properly,and that usually is not discovered til puberty.
the hygiene/bacteria excuse is pure bullshit,your foreskin helps protect your penis not the other way round,
also chopping off a big lump of your penis removes a shitload of sensitive nerves...obviously,
also the whole thing is being perpetuated ONLY to put money in unscrupulous doctor's pockets AND so cosmetic company's have a nice supply of baby foreskin to put in skin creams.nice.

Did I say minus the rant? oops.

P.S.
this form of Genital Mutilation was almost entirely thought up by "Doctor" John Harvey Kellogg...the same guy who came up with Cornflakes(think of that the next time you have a spoonful of baby fores,I mean Kelloggs corflakes up to your lips)he was a raving lunatic puritan who forcefully recommended chopping kids penises up as a prevention of masturbation which he is noted as claiming of masturbation-related deaths(lol)"such a victim literally dies by his own hand" and that masturbation caused every known disease.
Pro Circumcision people really need to know,THAT is the kind of deranged lunatic you are basing a lifelong,irreversible decision for your hours old child upon.
anyway enough,apologies for wall of text.
I just feel very strongly against this disgusting practice.
 

Kahunaburger

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Ultratwinkie said:
Kahunaburger said:
Ultratwinkie said:
The rate of AIDS in uncircumcised countries are far lower than circumcised ones.
You seem to be confusing a cause with an effect, here. The rate of people who die from cancer is higher in people who go through chemo than people who do not go through chemo.
That is a bad comparison. That assumes that Circumcision actually helps against AIDs. If that was true, it would be true for all cases. Instead, uncircumcised countries do not have those problems. The studies that try to state AIDs is stopped by circumcision would also state that AIDS should be rampant everywhere. Instead, it is not.

A surgery doesn't stop STDs, education does. Its this reason the US, and the third world have such high rates. Education is bogged down by superstition, and religious/cultural control.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue. Would you mind re-stating your case, and walking me through your thought process?
 

BiscuitTrouser

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SciMal said:
I say, let the father of the boy choose. The father will (ostensibly) be the male role-model for the young man, and should utilize his own experiences and research to determine the outcome. Since I hope I've made it clear that any perceived advantages OR disadvantages are pretty much bunk in a modern society that has access to soap and Astroglide, I would be more concerned about the child's psychological development and any disjunction between his anatomy and his male role model's anatomy than anything else. It can be very disconcerting to grow up different than your father. Before others start to chime in, I do believe the father should include the desires of the mother, but like I said before; it's not really a "women's issue."
Can i just say. Everything you said before this. Was. Beautiful. Thank you.

We can agree it is a medically unneccessary proceadure yes? That the risks either way are pretty much negligable?

At this point this paragraph is where the conflict arises, the idea that a father can make such a choice for his son without his input or consent, and then he is absically forced to live with it forever.

I see two routes.

Cut but dont wanna - Screwed

Uncut but wanna? - you can do something.

Regardless if the differences in the proceadure on different age groups one looks more appealing to me than another. Id rather my child had the choice in his life to make a decision rather than having daddy autonomously decide for him. It all comes down to the rights of the child.

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/forensics/11-forensic_anthropology/forensic_skeletons/peruvian_female_%28skull_binding_100bc%29-www.boneclones.com.JPG

In terms of "emulating daddy" id like to point to this monstrosity. I reckon this here is screwed in the head. And of course it is far far far worse than circumcision. However the same reasons justify it. I dont think it does any damage persay, or has any positive effects, but it can only by justified by preference... the parents preference. And is basically irreversable. I dont think the same arguements hold true for either case.

I also think the exact same arguements would stand for example, tattooing a childs penis matt black. I dont feel this would be appropriate either so i figure we should put aside cultural bias for the sake of rights and leave these things to choice.

Watch teh above video.
 

SciMal

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Ultratwinkie said:
That is a bad comparison. That assumes that Circumcision actually helps against AIDs. If that was true, it would be true for all cases. Instead, uncircumcised countries do not have those problems. The studies that try to state AIDs is stopped by circumcision would also state that AIDS should be rampant everywhere. Instead, it is not.

A surgery doesn't stop STDs, education does. Its this reason the US, and the third world have such high rates. Education is bogged down by superstition, and religious/cultural control.
Foreskin area correlates to contraction of HIV:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19770623

The less foreskin you have, the less risk you have of picking up some STDs ASSUMING YOU ARE NOT USING ANY PROTECTION AT ALL.

HIV/AIDS rates fluctuate due to sexual education and access to medications, as you said. The areas of the world more prone to using condoms (pretty much the only method proven to prevent transmission of STDs) and have access to current treatments will have fewer cases of AIDS and much better prognosis for patients who have developed AIDS.

I hope this clears up this argument.
 

camazotz

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I just dealt with this issue recently when my son was born. I'm not circumcised, and honestly can't see why anyone would choose circumcision unless there was an arbitrary (i.e. religious) reason. We researched the issue extensively and determined that there was no medical benefit to the process. If my son wants to get circumcised later in life, that's his prerogative, but it does strike me as an antiquated and unenlightened activity.

I have no idea if an uncircumcised penis is more or less sensitive/functional than a circumcised one, but I can say I would rather not find out the hard way, heh!
 

kurupt87

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Mar 17, 2010
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mrblakemiller said:
The-Epicly-Named-Man said:
Well it's obviously the individual's choice. I don't really think there's way to explain that in a way someone on this thread already has, so I'll leave this here instead:
I will add this: I hope Hitchens has never laughed at a joke predicated on murder or rape, or hell, any death for that matter. If he has, he's an enormous hypocrite. There's no logic behind saying that what a person finds funny explains anything about their moral character. I personally have the ability to divest myself from a joke, to realize that the people getting killed or mutilated or anything else are not real people. In fact, I'll bet you anything Hitchens has laughed at one of the many "crucifixion of Jesus" jokes out there. I can't (or at least don't care enough to try to) prove it, but I think it makes great food for thought.
I might suggest that joking about rape with your friend is ok. Joking about rape with a rapist, on the other hand, is slightly different.
 

Kahunaburger

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Ultratwinkie said:
Kahunaburger said:
Ultratwinkie said:
Kahunaburger said:
Ultratwinkie said:
The rate of AIDS in uncircumcised countries are far lower than circumcised ones.
You seem to be confusing a cause with an effect, here. The rate of people who die from cancer is higher in people who go through chemo than people who do not go through chemo.
That is a bad comparison. That assumes that Circumcision actually helps against AIDs. If that was true, it would be true for all cases. Instead, uncircumcised countries do not have those problems. The studies that try to state AIDs is stopped by circumcision would also state that AIDS should be rampant everywhere. Instead, it is not.

A surgery doesn't stop STDs, education does. Its this reason the US, and the third world have such high rates. Education is bogged down by superstition, and religious/cultural control.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue. Would you mind re-stating your case, and walking me through your thought process?
Rather than type it out, Ill just give this video:


It contains links to the studies. Its been posted in every circumcision thread, and no one has been able to refute it yet.
Could you explain it to me in your own words? I don't have time to watch a 15 minute video of someone on youtube's opinion about a tv show.
 

ultimateownage

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Only for Medical reasons, really. Though most of the medical reasons can be cured in other ways these days. I wouldn't stop anyone from doing it, but I wouldn't ever consider it myself. Most of the 'studies' into the advantages of [having/ not having] a person circumcised are all complete bollocks.
 

brtshstel

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I say the positives out-weight the negatives. Sure, it's a painful procedure. But it will heal. A series of skin lacerations will heal much more easily than urinary tract infections and other diseases. I was also told it mildly helps protect against prostate cancer. But at the same time, it's not as vital as, say, immunization shots.

It's similar to inoculations. Sure, a needle stick hurts like a ************ when you're four years old, and you can have a reaction to the medicine. But I rather enjoy the fact that my surrounding areas aren't plagued with a polio, measles, mumps, or rubella epidemic. And on that note, I seriously disagree with the parents who opt their children out of such vaccinations. It's selfish and takes no regard for the people who are at most risk of these diseases, such as the elderly and people with weakened immune systems.
 

deadTLF

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I'm circumcised and am happy that it was done at birth. I also have psoriasis and i know that if I wasn't circumcised it would have caused problems for me in the long run. I have no problem with parents doing it to their kids at birth as long as the doctor doing it is good(there are a few cases were things have gone wrong) but as long as you have a good doctor I say do it.
 

deadTLF

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I'm circumcised and am happy that it was done at birth. I also have psoriasis and i know that if I wasn't circumcised it would have caused problems for me in the long run. I have no problem with parents doing it to their kids at birth as long as the doctor doing it is good(there are a few cases were things have gone wrong) but as long as you have a good doctor I say do it.
 

Orekoya

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brtshstel said:
I say the positives out-weight the negatives. Sure, it's a painful procedure. But it will heal. A series of skin lacerations will heal much more easily than urinary tract infections and other diseases. I was also told it mildly helps protect against prostate cancer. But at the same time, it's not as vital as, say, immunization shots.

It's similar to inoculations. Sure, a needle stick hurts like a ************ when you're four years old, and you can have a reaction to the medicine. But I rather enjoy the fact that my surrounding areas aren't plagued with a polio, measles, mumps, or rubella epidemic. And on that note, I seriously disagree with the parents who opt their children out of such vaccinations. It's selfish and takes no regard for the people who are at most risk of these diseases, such as the elderly and people with weakened immune systems.
Except tract infections can be healed with penicillin and doesn't require mass mutilation to fix. Also this fixes no other diseases. Besides the entire point of the bill was to prevent non-medical required circumcision. It's protection to cancer is miniscule and indeterminable(mostly because penile cancer is really REALLY uncommon, seriously you are more likely to get breast cancer than penile cancer as a man.) and it's protection against stds are nullified by practicing safe sex with condoms. These reasons are paper thin reasons to cut off a vital part of the penis.

If no other reason to have a foreskin matters to you, then I will say this. The foreskin double folding skin layers account for roughly 40-50% of the penis's skin. Your penis can only grow as large as the skin available to it. When you circumcising an infant you are effectively making his penis 40-50% smaller than it could be.

Circumcision makes your penis smaller.
 

SciMal

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BiscuitTrouser said:
Can i just say. Everything you said before this. Was. Beautiful. Thank you.

We can agree it is a medically unneccessary proceadure yes? That the risks either way are pretty much negligable?
Agreed. There isn't a medically compelling reason to circumcise; it's optional.

At this point this paragraph is where the conflict arises, the idea that a father can make such a choice for his son without his input or consent, and then he is absically forced to live with it forever.

I see two routes.

Cut but dont wanna - Screwed

Uncut but wanna? - you can do something.

Regardless if the differences in the proceadure on different age groups one looks more appealing to me than another. Id rather my child had the choice in his life to make a decision rather than having daddy autonomously decide for him. It all comes down to the rights of the child.
Our two opinions aren't mutually exclusive, yours simply implies that fathers should prefer to leave their children uncircumcised so they can choose later in life.

Mine doesn't have a preference, but does note that being 'different from dad' can bring up psychological distress if left unaddressed. This merely places a bias towards fathers who think it would benefit their sons to look more like them; uncircumcised or not.

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/forensics/11-forensic_anthropology/forensic_skeletons/peruvian_female_%28skull_binding_100bc%29-www.boneclones.com.JPG

In terms of "emulating daddy" id like to point to this monstrosity. I reckon this here is screwed in the head. And of course it is far far far worse than circumcision. However the same reasons justify it. I dont think it does any damage persay, or has any positive effects, but it can only by justified by preference... the parents preference. And is basically irreversable. I dont think the same arguements hold true for either case.
You reckon it's 'screwed in the head' because it's not your subjective norm. While I'm suspicious about the lack of damage, I couldn't find any studies to confirm or deny the benign nature of skull binding.

I wouldn't say it's 'far far far worse than circumcision.' It's a societal preference; and every society has them. Again, though, something to that extreme probably didn't come without consequences; so I don't think it's the best example.

I also think the exact same arguements would stand for example, tattooing a childs penis matt black. I dont feel this would be appropriate either so i figure we should put aside cultural bias for the sake of rights and leave these things to choice.

Watch teh above video.
"Rights" are a cultural and societal bias; they are not guaranteed by nature. Physics does not dictate the Right to Vote and Evolution does not necessitate the Right to Free Speech. Because of this, and the benign nature of circumcisions, there isn't a more correct answer when it comes to the debate.

It is simply the choice the parents make at the time they are presented with it; and my preference is that the father - who has the most experience with the consequences - make the final decision.

I don't ask more than that, and I realize it's possible to expect less.

Personally, I see a well-informed person making a choice about circumcision the way I see a well-informed person making a choice about breakfast. As long as you're aware of what you're going to do later (teaching the son about how little the difference matters / what you should eat later in the day to fill in any nutrition you don't eat at breakfast), the differences are so insignificant that the debate is moot.

To me, this "debate" exists because people are misinformed, and it's only with egregious misuse of facts or complete fiction (i.e. - intact foreskins means significantly better sex) that I step in to educate. Bluntly. With a hammer.

That's all.
 

TheOneMavado

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It's child abuse. Nothing more, nothing less. Put the parents in jail where they belong for even suggesting such atrocity.
 

SciMal

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Orekoya said:
These reasons are paper thin reasons to cut off a vital part of the penis.
It's not vital. At all.

If it was, every circumcised man would never enjoy sex or possibly father children.

It's not necessary for sexual stimulation or release, it's not necessary for hygiene or medical reasons, and it's only significant advantage is in regards to a state where the person doesn't frequently bathe.

Removing the appendix and tonsils have more of a physiological effect on patients than removal of the foreskin - and I am not joking about this.

If no other reason to have a foreskin matters to you, then I will say this. The foreskin double folding skin layers account for roughly 40-50% of the penis's skin. Your penis can only grow as large as the skin available to it. When you circumcising an infant you are effectively making his penis 40-50% smaller than it could be.

Circumcision makes your penis smaller.
There's so much bullshit in this one paragraph you probably shouldn't comment on any biological issue anymore.

I know it may seem strange, but the skin is an organ and grows to meet the needs of the individual. If skin was restrictive in the way you're implying, nobody would be obese. Ever.

Also, penis size does not vary due to circumcision. It varies due to genetic factors and environmental factors, with slight correlations to HEIGHT and ETHNICITY (which are ALSO genetic and environmentally affected quantitative traits).

The most extensive study of penis size was conducted with a few hundred men from multiple ethnicities and found the average length seems to be between 5.65" and 5.87" with a standard deviation of ~.9 inches. The average circumference between 4.67" and 4.97" with a standard deviation of ~.5 inches. Both depending on how you interpret the data.

After you stop comparing yourself to the average numbers and feeling better/worse, you can stop utilizing misinformation in your arguments regarding this subject.

Sincerely,

SciMal.