Poll: What do you think about circumcision?

[Duskflamer]

Saying that parents should not be allowed to get their children circumcised, and should be punished for doing it, is tantamount to religious discrimination. A briss 7 days after a kid is born is part of the Jewish religion. I was raised Jewish and though I don't place much stock in religion, my mom does, and I don't feel any compelling reason to tell her off for "mutilating me at birth" or whatever anti-circumcision people are on about.

According to Judaism, performing the circumcision on a child is part of the rite the ancient Hebrews made with God. Saying that Jews should be punished for the pain involved in performing circumcision is about the same as railing against Christian baptisms for the discomfort of being submerged in water, and the minor chance of drowning. If that sounds ridiculous to you, guess what? Arguing that circumcision shouldn't happen sounds about as ridiculous to me.

 

[Kanlic]

The notion that there are so many people against circumcision here is baffling to me. Let me run down a couple of points real quick:

1) Its a hygiene thing. If you are walking around all day with a flap of skin wrapping a moist area all day, it could lead to infection, more so if than you cut it off.

2) If you wait until you are older to get circumcised, there is a sensitivity issue that will plague you for a couple of months. I.E. your penis will hurt by just getting touched, so things like wearing underwear will be painful. Imagine trying to have sex during that period -- not worth it.

3) Assuming you live in a 1st world nation, most penises are circumcised at birth. Chicks these days, especially with our society that is fixated on grooming, aren't used to seeing an uncircumcised penis. It looks weird, to them at least.

It seems like everyone here is clenching onto their enlightenment ideal of everyone having a choice and responsibility to choose on their own, but really who gives a fuck. Once it's done it's done, and the differences in lifestyle are essentially zero. This seems like a non-issue to me, so when I here people crying outrage, what I'm really hearing is people who love to be victims and have an intense hatred for mom and dad.

Just quiet down and find some real issue to worry about like getting a job or using your freshly circumcised penis to make babies. On second thought, never have kids. I don't want any more of you self entitled assholes running around.

 

[hashtag]

I voted the parent's choice, but what I really mean, is religious reasons. I really think you shouldn't circumcise, barring medical reasons, unless it's a religious reason. I just don't see a point to cutting off part of the dick for any non-religious reasons. Seems kinda weird.

"(10 points says poll gets eaten)" You, my friend, are out 10 points. I think I will use the points to buy a vineyard, out in the countryside.

Spoiler: Disclaimer

This is not a personal attack, and any use of the word 'you' (with the exception of the very first instance where, in fact, I am addressing the author of the post) should be read in the personal sense to the reader.

I was sure this was going to turn religious -- I didn't expect it to be the very first post! Huzzah, escapist!

So, here's why you're wrong, and read carefully: Religion is not ever, in any circumstance, a fucking excuse to do anything you wouldn't do otherwise. I will never, and nobody should ever, accept the proposition that religious morality is a loophole around actual morality.

I don't believe in female genital mutilation -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should be allowed to mutilate female genitals.

I don't believe in ritual animal sacrifice -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should be compelled to kill an animal for no tangible reason.

I don't believe in ritual self-flagellation -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should flagellate yourself for any reason other than self-gratification.

I don't believe in flying passenger jets into skyscrapers -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should fly a passenger jet into a skyscraper.

I don't believe in slicing a baby's dick -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should slice your baby's dick.

So, I've qualified all of these with "I believe." Do you disagree? Should we allow all of those instances I just listed?

If you do believe that, then I suppose at least you're consistent.

You're also a monster.

Why not be consistent in the other direction, instead? Why not determine what is and isn't moral, irrespective of the tens of thousands of constantly-splintering religions say? Why not determine morality based on a reasonable consideration of where one person's rights should end, and another person's begin?

Fun fact about traditional Talmudic circumcision: The moil uses his fingernails to slice the baby's dick, and then he uses his mouth to suck the blood from the baby's sliced dick. As far as I'm concerned, removing the fingernails and infant-cock-bloodsucking is really irrelevant; you're still left with someone slicing a baby's dick.

As far as I'm concerned, my right to swing my fist ends at your nose, and anyone's right to slice things with their fingernails ends at a baby's dick.

Spoiler: T.M.I. AHEAD

OBTW, I'm cut. I was cut twice, and am still, believe it or not, still mostly intact -- I guess that makes me some kind of bizarre penile anomaly. Yes, I still believe that it makes my parents monstrous. No, I'm not bitter about it, but only because I recovered. If I were more religious and less ethical, I'd use myself as a message from God, that he doesn't want people to slice children's dicks anymore.

Huh. I wasn't aware that my opinion could be wrong, cause you know, it's an opinion. And to clarify some things, I'm not religious, I'm actually against circumcision. However, I cannot stop circumcision, therefore I just figure it's one of *those* religious things. Things I don't understand, things people in another religion would. And in that case, I do believe it should be the parent's choice.
Tell me, when you were a kid did you get to choose your own religion? The answer, I'm guessing, is no. Then what's the difference? When you were a young child, your parents chose your haircuts, they chose where you went to school, what TV shows were appropriate (actually that never took off in my house) and they probably chose circumcision.
I just don't see a difference between doing all of that and circumcision. Maybe it's because I wasn't circumcised? Who knows.

 

[Sewora]

Saying that parents should not be allowed to get their children circumcised, and should be punished for doing it, is tantamount to religious discrimination. A briss 7 days after a kid is born is part of the Jewish religion. I was raised Jewish and though I don't place much stock in religion, my mom does, and I don't feel any compelling reason to tell her off for "mutilating me at birth" or whatever anti-circumcision people are on about.

According to Judaism, performing the circumcision on a child is part of the rite the ancient Hebrews made with God. Saying that Jews should be punished for the pain involved in performing circumcision is about the same as railing against Christian baptisms for the discomfort of being submerged in water, and the minor chance of drowning. If that sounds ridiculous to you, guess what? Arguing that circumcision shouldn't happen sounds about as ridiculous to me.

It's irrelevant whatever religion the parents are. The child is not of the same religion until you decide that for the child. And that is against basic human rights, I think anyone would agree that it's immoral and wrong to tell a woman that she must cook your food, or tell a child that it's alright to have sex with adults.
Everyone is born atheist, what we become later on is influenced by those around us. Most people never get the choice and are raised to believe certain things in a very rigid way.
But those of us who have maintained our atheistic default state can look at those who practice ancient old beliefs and traditions with skepticism.
I, and many others in the world believe that taking away a part of someone's body is inhumane, regardless of whatever you might believe.
You have the power to make your own choices, not the choices of others. It doesn't matter if it's good for a child to have her teeth removed to avoid infections, it's still wrong to make that choice for them.
Everyone needs to live their own life to the full extent or they will not have lived.


There's a famous quote by a Swedish actor that follows: "If our children never opposed or questioned their parents, we'd still be cavemen.

 

[hashtag]

I voted the parent's choice, but what I really mean, is religious reasons. I really think you shouldn't circumcise, barring medical reasons, unless it's a religious reason. I just don't see a point to cutting off part of the dick for any non-religious reasons. Seems kinda weird.

"(10 points says poll gets eaten)" You, my friend, are out 10 points. I think I will use the points to buy a vineyard, out in the countryside.

What if the religion says you have to cut off the ears, would you be alright with that too?
What about the nostrils?
Or how about simple ritual scarring?

Keep knives away from infants if there's no medical reason to cut them.

Ears≠pointless piece of skin on your penis. Just saying.

The penis contains 24,000 nerve endings uncircumcised. The procedure takes away 20,000 nerve endings alone. The female clitoris has 8,000. Medical fact.

Where exactly is it "useless?" because you can live without it? That makes most of your body useless flesh.

I didn't know that. DAMMIT HEALTH CLASS, WHY CAN"T YOU TEACH THESE THINGS???

 

[Sewora]

The notion that there are so many people against circumcision here is baffling to me. Let me run down a couple of points real quick:

1) Its a hygiene thing. If you are walking around all day with a flap of skin wrapping a moist area all day, it could lead to infection, more so if than you cut it off.

2) If you wait until you are older to get circumcised, there is a sensitivity issue that will plague you for a couple of months. I.E. your penis will hurt by just getting touched, so things like wearing underwear will be painful. Imagine trying to have sex during that period -- not worth it.

3) Assuming you live in a 1st world nation, most penises are circumcised at birth. Chicks these days, especially with our society that is fixated on grooming, aren't used to seeing an uncircumcised penis. It looks weird, to them at least.

It seems like everyone here is clenching onto their enlightenment ideal of everyone having a choice and responsibility to choose on their own, but really who gives a fuck. Once it's done it's done, and the differences in lifestyle are essentially zero. This seems like a non-issue to me, so when I here people crying outrage, what I'm really hearing is people who love to be victims and have an intense hatred for mom and dad.

Just quiet down and find some real issue to worry about like getting a job or using your freshly circumcised penis to make babies. On second thought, never have kids. I don't want any more of you self entitled assholes running around.

1) The foreskin helps keep it clean and avoid infections, do some research. Following your logic we'd have to remove the armpits too or stitch the labia majora and minora to the thighs on women to expose the vagina and make it dry. The glans is supposed to be somewhat moist to keep a good pH balance. Please name one gland on the human body that's supposed to be dry and sandy.

2) Why would you do it at all if it serves no purpose? No one is doing it at adult age, it's just stupid.

3) One of the very few first world countries that still has circumsizion as a standard procedure is the US. And even there it's becomming less and less common.

 

[Sewora]

Just to make this clear, something ppearsto have went wrong. You quoted me, I am against it. Plase dont think those are my words.

Woah, I'm terribly sorry. Thanks for telling me! Pretty severe error on my behalf, hehe. I've rectified it now though.

 

[MasTerHacK]

Where is the option for: I think circumcision is okay, and it should be practiced?

 

[Sewora]

Where is the option for: I think circumcision is okay, and it should be practiced?

Right next to the option that women shouldn't have the right to vote.

 

[dfphetteplace]

We had it done on my son, but only because he requested it. J/K But seriously, I really don't feel like playing "Trend Setter" with my sons penis.

 

[MasTerHacK]

1) The foreskin helps keep it clean and avoid infections, do some research. Following your logic we'd have to remove the armpits too or stitch the labia majora and minora to the thighs on women to expose the vagina and make it dry. The glans is supposed to be somewhat moist to keep a good pH balance. Please name one gland on the human body that's supposed to be dry and sandy.

I agree with you there is no clear medical evidence supporting the need for circumcision for otherwise healthy penises.

But dry and sandy? It's never felt sandy to me lol.

Didn't mean it that way. I just think that it's something that should be done both for medical and hygienic reasons.

 

[AnarchistFish]

I'm circumcised and I really don't care

 

[Bento Box]

see, the thing is, i'm glad my parents had me circumcised. Uncircumcised penises look horrible and too much like an animals penis. I know we're animals, but that doesn't mean we need to look like them just because it's natural.

I'm glad they had it done early mainly because it's riskier and a lot more painful later in life not to mention you don't remember it when it's done at birth.

also, to Wushu..."circumcision is bullshit, Penn and Teller say so." seriously? ....seriously? You lost all credibility with that line with me. Not because it's Penn and Teller ,I watch them all the time, but; because you apparently have to have someones "say so" to validate your beliefs.

Oh, just fuck you. Honestly?

You think it looks hideous because the norm in America is the cut schlong. You literally have zero context-awareness. If you lived in a place where people didn't slice babies' dicks as a matter of course, you'd look at a cut one and say, "oh god, what is wrong with that dick? It's hideous! It's got a huge chunk missing from it!"

Tell you what -- I think that fingernails are awful-looking. I really think they make us look too much like animals, and frankly I think we should just tear all the finger- and toenails off of children when they're born. I don't want to look like an animal, just because it's natural.

As for his quirk about Penn and Teller, he's specifically alluding to an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit, where they debunked the myths surrounding the alleged benefits of circumcision (most of which are hygenic and just as easily accomplished by washing your dick (or are you morally objected to touching yourself?). He wasn't letting Penn and Teller dictate his beliefs; he was making a cute allusion to a well-done expose on a fairly important issue.

Your reason for cussing at me is? So quick to judgement, someones got a low self image or something. Look you want your nails torn out, that's awesome. I love the idea really just yesterday i was thinking to myself. You know it's weird that we have these reduced claws basically we should either have eagle talons or just lose them entirely. If they weren't there the tender skin underneath wouldn't be tender anymore it would be like any other skin. So they don't really protect anything...no shittin' ya.

One thing i notice is you're so quick to tell me i have zero context for my dislike of the way uncircumcised penises look. Actually, that would well be the case if people walked around nude all day where I was made use to circumcised penis, but ya see we don't walk around naked here. My dislike of uncircumcised penis is due to ONLY to the fact it resembles an animal penis. Like a dogs in it's sheath.

My reason for cursing at you, is that you're being obtuse. Yes, I was quick to judgment -- because your argument was weak, and easy to judge.

This is further demonstrated by your complete inability to recognize the parallel I drew between mutilating children and mutilating children in a different way. You think the foreskin doesn't exist to protect the very sensitive and infection-prone glans and urethra, just as the keratin on our extremities exists for utility and protection?

And you do have zero context -- you yourself bemoaned the aesthetic of non-mutilated penises. That means you've seen them, and you dislike them (unless you have never seen one and just assumed that they looked gross, in which case you have no place to talk about their appearance at all).

The lack of context comes in the form of religious memes and their effect on the society in which you live. You live in a society that mutilates children as a matter of course, and that has warped your perspective into one that looks at an un-mutilated penis and says, "Eww, that looks too much like every other mammalian species on the planet. Gross."

 

[Sectan]

I'm glad that my parents chose to have me circumcised. They did it for cleanliness rather than religion (as they are both Buddhists).

In Australia they do not let you have circumcision if you are doing it for such a reason.
It's like cutting off fingertips so they don't have to clean under their nails, it's just not a wise move from a medical standpoint, nevermind the ethics.

As misguided and foolish as that reason is (no offence) it is at least better than doing it for cosmetic reasons.

Plus it's not like a person would remember having this happen to them at such a young age.

Doesn't that argument strike you as a little creapy? It's ok since they won't remember what you did to them?

I don't remember a lot of things when I was younger. I don't remember being fed. Don't remember being bathed...Jesus my parents did a lot of things without asking my permission! I probably didn't want to be naked and bathed, but they did it anyways the sick bastards! Real non-sarcastic question: What are consequences for being circumcised vs not being circumcised? People like to use the word mutilation.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means...

 

[Bento Box]

As for his quirk about Penn and Teller, he's specifically alluding to an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit, where they debunked the myths surrounding the alleged benefits of circumcision (most of which are hygenic and just as easily accomplished by washing your dick (or are you morally objected to touching yourself?). He wasn't letting Penn and Teller dictate his beliefs; he was making a cute allusion to a well-done expose on a fairly important issue.

As for all this, I'm aware of what it's about. Again none of the reasons they debunked are my reasons for backing circumcision. My view is that I hate the way uncircumcised looks, I am glad it was done early in life. If it wasn't i would undergo it as an adult, but the fact it was saves me from the months of raw tenderness and pain it would cause. Whereas i can't remember it, it doesn't hurt me at all, and I have a penis i'm not disgusted of. I don't care whether you prefer yours to be uncircumcised. I don't have to look at yours or anyone elses but mine.

I still don't buy it.

Look: I'm not arguing against circumcision. If you're an adult, and want to get circumcised, that's fine.

I'm arguing against the religious memes and ideals that allow religious parents to mutilate their children. I'm not sure that I've made that clear, and as confrontational as I've been in my last couple responses, I can see where I might be coming across as anti-selective-surgery. I'm not.

I'm against someone else selecting your surgery for you. I'm against the fact that your parents, and not you, decided that it would be a real good idea to get your cock chopped. I go back to my earlier example: would you elect to have your child's fingernails torn off? After all, the skin underneath would eventually toughen up just like the rest of their skin, and they'd forget all about the pain by the time they grew up.

That's a weak excuse. It's no excuse.

 

[Oskamunda]

*Snip*

Rule #1: Don't make fake quotes for people (notice how if you click my name, it doesn't take you to a reply that has *snip* in it; I have already stated I have no personal opinion on circumcision). How would you like this?

I think all puppies should be euthanized and eaten. Anyone who disagrees with this philosophy must be lobotomized.

I would think you wouldn't.


Now, in actual response; You people, YEESH. How can you pontificate so vociferously without actually reading anything? I don't justify it, I don't necessarily endorse it, as I have made very clear. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of logic in making it a human rights issue.

Now, seeing as I am clearly being trolled, let's take one last look at logic.

...how can you possibly justify removing it? What exactly is your argument for removing it?

Read my first post...or, if you are too lazy to do that, do a wiki walk, or a plain google search; you will find all of the arguments for and against. You completely ignored my entire post, and proceeded as though I had not stated anything, and then questioned through context my morality at the absence of an argument or justification. Steamroller fallacy, also known as The Republican's Debate.

What gives any parent the right to treat their children like a lump of meat that you can modify according to YOUR desires?

Nothing does. Problem is, your are stating outright that that is the only reason they would do it (they think of their child as meat), and then judge them for their conclusion. Straw Man fallacy, Definist fallacy, Naturalistic fallacy, Falsa Analogia fallacy, Psychologist's fallacy, and Argumentum ad Crudelitatem fallacy.

I think they should add the deathpenalty for circumsizing children in the US. At least then we'd get rid of all these psychotic parents who mutilate their children and then argue that it's so bloody nice because their parents were psychotic too.

So...cutting a bit of flesh off of a penis, one that weighs less than 1g, is wrong, but putting people to death isn't? One would think that if your morals disallowed for "mutilation," they would disallow state-sanctioned killing. Also, demanding that the whole world accept that circumcision is only mutilation, and ascribing a mental disease to those who don't believe the same and then insist that murder is the only fitting punishment for those so obviously afflicted and that the aforementioned mental disease has only a conclusive downward geneological vector...that's...that's...wow. Definist fallacy, Causa et Consequens Circularis fallacy, Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy, Attributio Falsi fallacy, Regression fallacy, Una Causa fallacy, Existential fallacy...I'll just stop there on that one, lest I go through almost all of them...

Yeah, if my parents locked me up in the basement my whole life, I'd probably lock my children up in my basement their whole life and then hop onto the escapist forum and batter others for thinking it's wrong. And fabricate some illusion of how I'm right in treating my children as I please, because they are MINE.

See above for the same fallacies, but mainly the addition of hypocrisy. YOU are the one who "jumped on" and did not read the previous posts, and have been spraying the "IT'S WRONG" foam around on everyone else. You have even gone on to state that there are psychological problems in circumcised men because of some illusion of freedom in choice as an infant and because a piece of your body is gone and "it knows it should be there?"

The psychological issues men can have is not due to the traumatic experience since no one has any real vivid memories from before the age of 3. The depression and psychological issues is due to the realization of the loss of a part of their bodies, and their parents decision to take the freedom of choice away from them.

Do you not realize that you just stated against your argument? If your parents took your choice away from you before you were 3, you wouldn't have any vivid memory of it, let alone have that memory be potent enough to cause you depression...if you look down at your cut penis and feel depressed, I think the nature of the depression is focused on a different measurement...you should try reading some Montaigne.

I could keep going on you and people like you, but it's pointless, as no one is going to read it save for the moderators.

Primary Conclusion: The morality of circumcision is in the air, and no one, logically, can provide an argument for or against it. All decisions regarding circumcision can be justified by any argument or set of experiences. Most importantly, it is not a human rights issue, no more than minimum wage is a human rights issue. If you do it, do it; if not, then not. No circumcision jihad is necessary, and it exists only to provide a growth medium for unnecessary argumentative behavior and bilespeak moral elitism.

Ancillary Conclusion: Sewora=Troll.

Logic, people...logic. USE IT.

 

[Sewora]

I love how all the pro-circumsizion people have no sources for their claims, can't back anything they say up with facts and keeps arguing and asking for proof and reason for the benefits of being uncircumsized when we've written numerous posts about it.

Stop reading this forum, visit some of the links we've provided, do some research on your own and stop being so ignorant.

I have foreskin, I can tell you a thousand benefits of having it. I can also just pull it back and experience being circumsized for a day and have it look, smell, act and perform like a circumsized penis and tell you it's no fun at all. How much more proof do you need? Good lord, it's like trying to talk about morality to a taliban.

Incorrect. You can also have various forms of cosmetic surgery done. Breast enlargements, nose jobs, eye lifts, tats, piercings, colligen injections, botox, braces, etc.

Woah.. You do those things to infants?

 

[Naeras]

Incorrect. You can also have various forms of cosmetic surgery done. Breast enlargements, nose jobs, eye lifts, tats, piercings, colligen injections, botox, braces, etc.

An no, an infant has ZERO say in what medical procedures are performed on them.

What would you say if the norm somewhere was for parents to force kids to take painful plastic surgeries? If you'd condemn that, you're essentially a hypocrite, because that's essentially what circumcision is, plus the fact that it makes sex less pleasing.

 

[dead.juice]

Circumcision? Why hasn't this caught on yet?
Who wouldn't want to cut off a part of their dick? I can't wait to try this to myself!
The kids at the mall would see me and be like "dude, you cut off your own dick? Wow!", and I'd be like "Nah man, just the tip", and they'd be like "That's the most bad-ass thing I've heard all day, rock on.", and then I'd punch a security guard off a Segway and everyone would cheer because I'm so wicked awesome.

 

[Bento Box]

-snip-

Huh. I wasn't aware that my opinion could be wrong, cause you know, it's an opinion. And to clarify some things, I'm not religious, I'm actually against circumcision. However, I cannot stop circumcision, therefore I just figure it's one of *those* religious things. Things I don't understand, things people in another religion would. And in that case, I do believe it should be the parent's choice.
Tell me, when you were a kid did you get to choose your own religion? The answer, I'm guessing, is no. Then what's the difference? When you were a young child, your parents chose your haircuts, they chose where you went to school, what TV shows were appropriate (actually that never took off in my house) and they probably chose circumcision.
I just don't see a difference between doing all of that and circumcision. Maybe it's because I wasn't circumcised? Who knows.

See, that position is one of defeat and submission. It's saying, "well, crazy religious people will do crazy, harmful religious things and there's nothing I can do to stop it."

Horseshit.

No, I didn't choose my religion when I was a kid. I had it chosen for me and that is bad. It's also bad to compare a dickcut to a haircut, or to compare a haircut to crazy-ass religious indoctrination that can fuck up your brain for the rest of your life. I got lucky -- the hypnosis didn't stick. I was a skeptical believer for most of my youth, and I was freed from my dogma more or less completely at the early age of 16, pretty painlessly.

The following will sound like a tangent, but bear with it for a bit.

For most people, the loss of religion is far from painless. For most people escaping it, it involves months or years of inner turmoil because they are told, from as soon as they can understand words, that the worst thing you can possibly do is question the doctrine -- that questioning the doctrine will land you in a lake of fire,where you will be tortured forever. The really lucky ones manage to dispense with that kind of awful, draconian, bogey-man fear-mongering. The one good thing churches certainly do provide is a social structure. They offer support, and if you reject the dogma, you're very likely to lose all that support.

This is where secular support groups come in, and it's where we get to discuss your apparent willingness to cave into religious pressures on society: These support groups are almost always equally about providing a social support structure for secular people and about providing education to people, both religious and secular -- partially to get the word out that they exist, and to let secular people know they aren't alone; but also largely to stamp out crazy religious memes that infect societies. Your argument seems to be, "I can't stop circumcision tomorrow, so I can't stop circumcision." I do not accept this, and neither should you.