Poll: What percentage of people are LGBT?

[Silvanus]

Negativity is a perception and yes promiscuity is viewed negatively. Asking people to conduct themselves in "respectable" ways if they plan to lead a movement is common sense.

Spoiler: Pictures spoilered.

Or to put it more plainly This:

Gets a different response from people than this:

I don't think it is an awful lot to ask that people don't run around the streets in their underwear. I think that falls under "Bare minimum" in american society.

The girly guys can be as girly as they want. I'm not asking people to change their personalities I'm asking them to think strategically about what they want, and realize they need respect to get it. The whole set up of the pride parade makes us all look bad because that is the image conjured up by the popular conscious when one reveals they identify as gay or lesbian. It is our biggest weakness and we create it for no good reason.

Y'surely realise that plenty of people go to Pride parades wearing perfectly regular clothes, though. Some people go in suits, in work uniforms, etc. There are some people visible in that first picture you posted, just behind the centre-stage three, wearing regular, modest clothes.

The media exclusively focuses on certain kinds of images from Pride parades. That doesn't mean they represent Pride more than anybody else present. That doesn't mean that's the image of the LGBT movement; it's just one image of many.

You don't have a good reason to say you "despise the [...] movement"; you're basing it on an imbalanced image.

 

[Jesterscup]

Negativity is a perception and yes promiscuity is viewed negatively. Asking people to conduct themselves in "respectable" ways if they plan to lead a movement is common sense.

Spoiler: Pictures spoilered.

Or to put it more plainly This:

Gets a different response from people than this:

I don't think it is an awful lot to ask that people don't run around the streets in their underwear. I think that falls under "Bare minimum" in american society.

The girly guys can be as girly as they want. I'm not asking people to change their personalities I'm asking them to think strategically about what they want, and realize they need respect to get it. The whole set up of the pride parade makes us all look bad because that is the image conjured up by the popular conscious when one reveals they identify as gay or lesbian. It is our biggest weakness and we create it for no good reason.

Y'surely realise that plenty of people go to Pride parades wearing perfectly regular clothes, though. Some people go in suits, in work uniforms, etc. There are some people visible in that first picture you posted, just behind the centre-stage three, wearing regular, modest clothes.

The media exclusively focuses on certain kinds of images from Pride parades. That doesn't mean they represent Pride more than anybody else present. That doesn't mean that's the image of the LGBT movement; it's just one image of many.

You don't have a good reason to say you "despise the [...] movement"; you're basing it on an imbalanced image.

Missing the point entirely. if I want to dress like this....

Spoiler: my pride outfit

I will damn well dress like that, I'm proud of my look, and I put a lot of effort into it.
You have issues with it? get over them. Telling me I don't help your 'cause'? I don't care, because it's clearly a not very inclusive cause.

 

[Silvanus]

Missing the point entirely. if I want to dress like this....

Spoiler: my pride outfit

I will damn well dress like that, I'm proud of my look, and I put a lot of effort into it.
You have issues with it? get over them. Telling me I don't help your 'cause'? I don't care, because it's clearly a not very inclusive cause.

I agree entirely. I do not have issues with it at all.

Didn't mean to give the impression I did.

 

[Jesterscup]

I agree entirely. I do not have issues with it at all.

Didn't mean to give the impression I did.

no you didn't... it was implied in @Matthewmagic 's post that you quoted.

I quoted you merely to make the point in comparison to saying "look there were 'normal' people there as well".

However your comment on the narrative portrayed by the media is valid, and it can be damaging. but it's not an excuse to say I shouldn't dress like that, its a reason to put pressure on the media to report in a more unbiased way.

( not implying that this statement is counter to your statement, perhaps rather an elaboration? )

captcha: carry on

 

[Something Amyss]

A bias isn't inherently a bad thing. It's an inclination to think a certain way. That's really it. Based on your next statement you could say you have a bias to "hard facts and numbers." Although, I'll get into that.

Now try it in this context, where they're specifically against something regardless of what the facts say.

In a vacuum, you're absolutely correct. I would, however, hope that we can look at things within the context with which they're spoken, as is only honest.

And let's not forget he was asking me to go beyond the actual numbers. That was part of the bloody post you quoted.

I even agree the facts do support what you say. But people, everyone of us, do gravitate towards things that reinforce what we already think. It's a bias that we all have called "confirmation bias" and we all do it.

Keep in mind you're talking to a former Catholic. None of this supports what I already believed.

I've read about people who have had brain damage and lost there "biases" they became basically non-functional. They would spend hours standing in front of a shelf trying to decide what brand of tuna to get.

Do you seriously have a favourite brand of tuna? I don't. I don't think I've ever had one. I'm not sure I could name one.

I'm getting of track.

And extremely pedantic, at this point.

The main point is being a good skeptic is about knowing that you're not. You're just as likely to interpret data that conforms to your preconceived notions as anyone else. To put it another; when we drive we all have blind spots, but a good driver is aware of them. He doesn't insist they don't exist.

And you're telling this to someone who overcame their bias that God hates homosexuals as wicked sinners and came to terms with the nature of human sexuality, so pardon me if I don't think that taking me out of context to tell me something I already know is kind of pointless. I've thrown out a lot of my own personal views in my life, for the record. I used to be pro-life, pro-death penalty, pro-gun (I guess I still sort of am), I used to believe in God (an anthropomorphic omniscient and omnipotent being, specifically), and those are just the ones off the top of my head. So yeah, it seems kind of pointless to lecture me.

Well, very pointless.

I wonder what other phrases you could dissect out of context and lecture me about.

Edit: and let's not forget what this was specifically about. Someone was asking me to go beyond the facts of a case and listen to people who specifically had a problem with gays. This is the equivalent of asking you to ignore the advice of doctors and treat your cancer with....I don't know, prayer or leeches or something. Nothing I balked at was unreasonable to balk at. This is a conspiracy theory (literally, since he accused the government of covering up gay household abuse cases) and he's asking me to ignore everything verifiable and instead go with conspiracy theorists.

One of us looked for information. One of us asked the other to ignore that information.

 

[Something Amyss]

Negativity is a perception and yes promiscuity is viewed negatively.

Unless you're a straight male, in which case you're supposed to fuck as many women as possible.

Asking people to conduct themselves in "respectable" ways if they plan to lead a movement is common sense.

I don't think your average queen or chaps-wearing individual is leading anything.

But I'm with Jestercup here.

Missing the point entirely. if I want to dress like this....

Spoiler: my pride outfit

I will damn well dress like that, I'm proud of my look, and I put a lot of effort into it.
You have issues with it? get over them. Telling me I don't help your 'cause'? I don't care, because it's clearly a not very inclusive cause.

I wouldn't go out dressed like that, but if JC wants to, he should be able to.

Or to put it more plainly This:

So how do you feel about football fans? I mean, should be marginalise them and remove their rights? I mean, you have football fans who wear less than the dude on the left, covered in body paint, jiggling around onscreen. And we broadcast this on television watched by children, FFS. Please, tell me more about these standards of decency.

I don't think it is an awful lot to ask that people don't run around the streets in their underwear. I think that falls under "Bare minimum" in american society.

40 years ago, maybe. Have you looked outside recently?

I'm not asking people to change their personalities I'm asking them to think strategically about what they want, and realize they need respect to get it.

And if we have to earn respect by being something we're not, then that respect is meaningless. And if that's your point, you kind of are asking people to change.

 

[Ladylotus]

I was trying to voice a note in agreement, apologies if it came across differently. There is a difference between saying, hey I support you standing up for what you believe, and standing there beside them shouting just as loudly.

One thing that made me think during writing this, is just how broad the term 'trans' is, I mean it's a broad spectrum. I self-identify as trans, yet I spend my days in my birth-gender, dressing to varying degrees as the situation permits. I accept as part of my life that I'll never be female nor transition, and that my expression of my own identity is something that isn't always a positive effect on the rest of my life.

I attend no support groups, I'm not part of the community, and the only other trans people I know and interact with are those who also perform in the same arenas. when I first publicly came out, I made an effort to try and meet others, attend groups, be part of the 'scene' but frankly even within the moniker of 'trans' there is so wide a ranges of causes/reasons/issues/goals etc, and frankly I got sick of being told that 'I should do this' or 'I should do that'.

I'd like to give an example if I may. I'm not entirely defined by my gender identity, and while it's an aspect of my life, it's not all encompassing. I've accepted that in day to day life that I must present myself as male. This is my choice, and one made in full awareness of the implications. I get to be 'who' I am at other times. It's a compromise, but one I'm willing to make.
I've been told this is wrong, that I should embrace 'who' I am fully, despite the fact this would cost me my (day-job) career, and quite possibly the ability to have contact with my own children. This is life, every choice has ramifications, it's own set of compromises. I'll stand proudly beside those to travel further down the path, admire their bravery & commitment, but thats not my path, and I won't be told what my path is.

There certainly is that difference, yeah. It just seems that, with some people, not speaking up is being part of the problem.

And yeah, I can definitely agree with your reasoning. I'm at an earlier stage of life than you (to word it as best I can), being a university student and all that. And while I am working towards transition, there's the fact that it's rather strict where I'm from, to the point of there being several interviews and qualifications that you have to fit. However, while I dress somewhat like a male and speak like one, I'm also limited by the fact that I simply can't pass as a guy without any sort of treatment due to my body + voice. So I don't try to say I am one, because I've accepted that, at least for now, I'm a female officially and biologically.

So, where I am at right now is that I do want to go through with the full transformation, become as close to a guy as I can. However, if that's not possible, I'd rather live as a female than being in a state where I'm somewhere between the two. I'd still be a man mentally, but honestly, I don't see that much difference between the two when it comes to core personality, and I'd still be perceived as a woman either way.

As of now, I don't need anyone to refer to me as a guy, and I've made it very clear to my family that as long as it is more comfortable for them to refer to me as a female and their daughter and sister and all that, then they should do that. I don't mention it to strangers, and I tend to ensure that those I do tell won't care too much about it/won't put much emphasis on it. Apparently, that's hiding.

But yeah, I understand your position. I also present myself as my perceived gender(female), and if I was in your situation, I'd probably do something similar. It's only because I am in this stage of life that I'm trying to get the operations and official status.

It's really strange finding people in very similar situations to myself with differing viewpoints. Not that strange is a bad thing, far from it.

I'm also trans, and I'm bisexual, but I'm a very active member of both LGBT communities near me. I'm actively taking hormones and doing other things so that I can transition to female, and can't imagine living if I don't. I'm a student at a university and am basically out to everyone in my social life (with the exception of my family, I'm not doing that unless there's a gun to my head).

I'm also very all out, I want people to use the correct pronouns, to not misgender me on purpose (accidents happen, especially if they knew me before I began transitioning). It's just how I am, I suppose.

 

[DarkRawen]

I was trying to voice a note in agreement, apologies if it came across differently. There is a difference between saying, hey I support you standing up for what you believe, and standing there beside them shouting just as loudly.

One thing that made me think during writing this, is just how broad the term 'trans' is, I mean it's a broad spectrum. I self-identify as trans, yet I spend my days in my birth-gender, dressing to varying degrees as the situation permits. I accept as part of my life that I'll never be female nor transition, and that my expression of my own identity is something that isn't always a positive effect on the rest of my life.

I attend no support groups, I'm not part of the community, and the only other trans people I know and interact with are those who also perform in the same arenas. when I first publicly came out, I made an effort to try and meet others, attend groups, be part of the 'scene' but frankly even within the moniker of 'trans' there is so wide a ranges of causes/reasons/issues/goals etc, and frankly I got sick of being told that 'I should do this' or 'I should do that'.

I'd like to give an example if I may. I'm not entirely defined by my gender identity, and while it's an aspect of my life, it's not all encompassing. I've accepted that in day to day life that I must present myself as male. This is my choice, and one made in full awareness of the implications. I get to be 'who' I am at other times. It's a compromise, but one I'm willing to make.
I've been told this is wrong, that I should embrace 'who' I am fully, despite the fact this would cost me my (day-job) career, and quite possibly the ability to have contact with my own children. This is life, every choice has ramifications, it's own set of compromises. I'll stand proudly beside those to travel further down the path, admire their bravery & commitment, but thats not my path, and I won't be told what my path is.

There certainly is that difference, yeah. It just seems that, with some people, not speaking up is being part of the problem.

And yeah, I can definitely agree with your reasoning. I'm at an earlier stage of life than you (to word it as best I can), being a university student and all that. And while I am working towards transition, there's the fact that it's rather strict where I'm from, to the point of there being several interviews and qualifications that you have to fit. However, while I dress somewhat like a male and speak like one, I'm also limited by the fact that I simply can't pass as a guy without any sort of treatment due to my body + voice. So I don't try to say I am one, because I've accepted that, at least for now, I'm a female officially and biologically.

So, where I am at right now is that I do want to go through with the full transformation, become as close to a guy as I can. However, if that's not possible, I'd rather live as a female than being in a state where I'm somewhere between the two. I'd still be a man mentally, but honestly, I don't see that much difference between the two when it comes to core personality, and I'd still be perceived as a woman either way.

As of now, I don't need anyone to refer to me as a guy, and I've made it very clear to my family that as long as it is more comfortable for them to refer to me as a female and their daughter and sister and all that, then they should do that. I don't mention it to strangers, and I tend to ensure that those I do tell won't care too much about it/won't put much emphasis on it. Apparently, that's hiding.

But yeah, I understand your position. I also present myself as my perceived gender(female), and if I was in your situation, I'd probably do something similar. It's only because I am in this stage of life that I'm trying to get the operations and official status.

It's really strange finding people in very similar situations to myself with differing viewpoints. Not that strange is a bad thing, far from it.

I'm also trans, and I'm bisexual, but I'm a very active member of both LGBT communities near me. I'm actively taking hormones and doing other things so that I can transition to female, and can't imagine living if I don't. I'm a student at a university and am basically out to everyone in my social life (with the exception of my family, I'm not doing that unless there's a gun to my head).

I'm also very all out, I want people to use the correct pronouns, to not misgender me on purpose (accidents happen, especially if they knew me before I began transitioning). It's just how I am, I suppose.

Well, that's like a mirror image, isn't it? Everything is the opposite.

Well, not entirely, I am attempting to get the diagnosis I need to get hormones, it's simply that if that should fail, I'd rather just stay female, because mentally I know who I am. I am male, and, in my family, and with the people around me, there's very few stereotypes or gender-roles that seems to hinder how I can act. And, there's always the internet, where I can appear as I like.

I would, of course, love to get the whole transition done, have people call me by male pronouns, and have they perceive me as male, but the most important thing to me is the physical part, by far, because that's what it feels like. I'm in the body of the wrong sex, I have parts I don't want and parts I feel I should have. The psychological and social factors are not very important to me, though I know that it differs a lot from person to person.

But yeah, I've definitely heard more about your kind of viewpoint than my own, possibly because... well, if you don't tend to share, people with the same kind of approach don't tend to share, and I do think it's a more widespread approach than people seem to think, one does simply not hear about it.

 

[Matthewmagic]

I'm going to take issue with this, so it's ok for someone to lisp and behave in an overly camp manner, yet dressing in a style thats outside of the norm isn't? I don't wear my performance outfits to work ( and I never lisp nor camp ) but I spend a great deal of time, money and effort to look the way I wish to when I perform. I could argue that it's important for people to dress outside of the social norms, in order to breakdown those barriers, whereas you're asking me to hide behind them. I people don't respect me because of my choice of clothing then that is an issue they have, not me.


captcha: wild and crazy guys

YES! That attitude right there is the issue I have. The false equivalency of people just being who they are and people falsely representing a demographic that gets enough shit as is. It is just not the same thing.

You create a problem with ME when you take that attitude. So long as Mr. Important gets to dress in 3 pieces of tape and some feathers. You want to dress and behave in a way you know and understand makes people uncomfortable and do so at the symbolic gathering of homosexality awareness. Then you claim that is just who you are while knowingly representing all of us, and that isn't who we all are. Yet crying biggotry and slander whenever the news puts out something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ypsojc5vFg Pops up on the news. Instead of asking "Gee I wonder what I did to make these people so uncomfortable".

You are negatively influencing my life by "being yourself" and I have EVERY right to take issue with that. You as a person I don't have any strong opinions about.

 

[Matthewmagic]

*snip*

A lot of strawman arguments and false equivalencies are made here. You seem to miss the point I never said "People are prejudice and that is awesome" I said "People are prejudice and that is just the way it is. Pride parades are only feeding that prejudice." I have every right to be annoyed when people intentionally or otherwise work against my goals under the false pretense of "being supportive". You might be "supportive" but you are not helping. Which I feel is true and until you can show otherwise every argument you make is a strawman argument. Because football does not have the same stigma as homosexuality.

snip

I don't have much experience with pride parades but I'm assuming they are a specific place to "go all out" as it were, the guy in the top picture doesn't wear that outfit to work I imagine

I accept and understand that. Alot of other people do not. I'm not worried about my perception. The perceptions of other people when I go to get married or go to adopt a child. I want to live a regular life like just about everyone else in the world, and that becomes more difficult the more baggage and bias is dropped onto gay people. Mind you I don't think they can/will stop. I think I would be better off if they did for aptly demonstrated reasons.

Y'surely realise that plenty of people go to Pride parades wearing perfectly regular clothes, though. Some people go in suits, in work uniforms, etc. There are some people visible in that first picture you posted, just behind the centre-stage three, wearing regular, modest clothes.

The media exclusively focuses on certain kinds of images from Pride parades. That doesn't mean they represent Pride more than anybody else present. That doesn't mean that's the image of the LGBT movement; it's just one image of many.

You don't have a good reason to say you "despise the [...] movement"; you're basing it on an imbalanced image.

Yes and that "imbalanced" image is what shows up in the american conscious. You need to be able to prove they are not damaging to have a valid argument not that the perception is wrong. I know the perception is wrong.

 

[xmbts]

I suppose I'm in the LGBT, it's pretty average.

A good number of my friends are though that's more coincidental than anything else. Nobody else in my family is, or at least won't admit it, my parents and sister tolerate it though.

As for how accepting the community I live in, it's not something that comes up all that often but I'd say neutral going on ignorant though not exactly hateful. Just really, really ignorant.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Gay as(s) rainbows. My friends all know I'm gay and my family is either cool with it or completely unaware.

 

[Irick]

You might be "supportive" but you are not helping. Which I feel is true and until you can show otherwise every argument you make is a strawman argument. Because football does not have the same stigma as homosexuality

I'll put in my two cents I suppose:
Screw the social norm, screw the social stigma, screw the common man's perceptions. It's not my responsibility to reinforce the prevalent culture. Nor should I or anyone for that matter take on the responsibilities or limit themselves to any societally enforced arbitrary grouping.

Yes and that "imbalanced" image is what shows up in the american conscious. You need to be able to prove they are not damaging to have a valid argument not that the perception is wrong. I know the perception is wrong.

I see your argument, but screw that argument too

Validity isn't a truth value, it's a comment on the structure of an argument. Nothing needs to be proven to have a valid argument you just need to be using valid logic.

The visibility of challenging elements within our overall cultural dialog is a good thing. Counterculture movements have and will always be essential for the general progress of society. The goal of acceptance is fine, striving for normality is fine, but that's not my struggle. My goal is to cause society to question, to queer their basic lines of reasoning and to thus evolve to a better state of existence for everyone. Normality is never something I will strive for, because I want people to have the freedom to go far outside it. In this way, I will never be happy with a slow cultural acceptance of these concepts, I will only be happy when that line of acceptance is being transgressed by those who can, those in the spotlight.

It is not my place to be accepted. It is my place to use the position of privilege I have to ensure that our cultural dialog always has a dissenting and well reasoned voice to challenge the foundations it rests on. To avoid stagnation of ideas and to make life a little more interesting.

 

[Saika Renegade]

I am a bisexual male, but don't often say so to many people in person, primarily due to unpleasant remarks from people across the sexuality spectrum.

Regarding the tolerance thing, I've had the uncomfortable experience of receiving bigoted remarks from both heterosexual and homosexual individuals in the same day, with some of the former saying I'm an abomination by the rules of one or more religions and some of the latter claiming I'm merely lying to myself about really being homosexual so I can feel better about myself or try to be more accepted by heterosexual people (clearly not having witnessed the statements made by heterosexual people towards me due to my bisexuality). Individuals from both sides have effectively called me a greedy, noncommittal slut simply for being romantically and sexually attracted to both men and women. Considering I've had monogamous relationships lasting years with men and women in my life, such accusations hardly feel fair, but it definitely suggests there's some degree of social stigma in being both male and bisexual if the lack of acceptance is any indication.

All I have to say on the matter is anyone that set solely in binary ways of thinking is not going to help bridge this particular gap any time soon.

 

[Irick]

Individuals from both sides have effectively called me a greedy, noncommittal slut simply for being romantically and sexually attracted to both men and women. Considering I've had monogamous relationships lasting years with men and women in my life, such accusations hardly feel fair, but it definitely suggests there's some degree of social stigma in being both male and bisexual if the lack of acceptance is any indication.

I've noticed this problem too. I do not think that bisexuals get nearly enough consideration in this debate because both sides of it really do seem to dismiss their stance. It's really sad for me when I see it because it runs so counter to the simple logic of the mater, it's just another circle of wagons that people are being pushed out of.

 

[Jesterscup]

" I said "People are prejudice and that is just the way it is. Pride parades are only feeding that prejudice." I have every right to be annoyed when people intentionally or otherwise work against my goals under the false pretense of "being supportive".

Yes and that "imbalanced" image is what shows up in the american conscious. You need to be able to prove they are not damaging to have a valid argument not that the perception is wrong. I know the perception is wrong.

So I should hide because the way I choose to look reinforces those damaging prejudices? If I do that then the bigots have won. I'm sorry they affect your life, but don't blame me for them.

 

[Saika Renegade]

I've noticed this problem too. I do not think that bisexuals get nearly enough consideration in this debate because both sides of it really do seem to dismiss their stance. It's really sad for me when I see it because it runs so counter to the simple logic of the mater, it's just another circle of wagons that people are being pushed out of.

I can't do anything more than throw hypotheses out there, but I suspect this stems heavily from the binary thinking pattern I mentioned before.

From what I can figure in terms of logical arguments and fallacies, it's related closely to the false dilemma, where not all alternatives have been considered even though people claim they are. In short, it seems that a number of people think that sexuality is binary, either heterosexual or homosexual.

This thought pattern fails to take into account the existence of things such as bisexuality, asexuality, or pansexuality, and also tries to assign bisexual, asexual, or pansexual people into one of the binary categories. Because bisexuals, asexuals, and pansexuals don't neatly mesh into the definitions of either binary category, when this failure of easy categorization is pointed out, people get upset due to the failure of their mental category system. What evidence I do have suggests it's easier for people to blame the subject than fix the discriminatory mindset.

I maintain that the binary thinking pattern that likely causes this behavior is flawed precisely because it does not accept the possibility that there may be more than a yes-or-no answer to a question as complex as sexuality.

 

[Silvanus]

no you didn't... it was implied in @Matthewmagic 's post that you quoted.

I quoted you merely to make the point in comparison to saying "look there were 'normal' people there as well".

However your comment on the narrative portrayed by the media is valid, and it can be damaging. but it's not an excuse to say I shouldn't dress like that, its a reason to put pressure on the media to report in a more unbiased way.

( not implying that this statement is counter to your statement, perhaps rather an elaboration? )

captcha: carry on

Ah, that's fair enough.

Yes and that "imbalanced" image is what shows up in the american conscious. You need to be able to prove they are not damaging to have a valid argument not that the perception is wrong. I know the perception is wrong.

My argument is that your hostility is misplaced. Others have already made the points that, 1) You're taking issue with harmless self-expression, and 2) You're applying a double-standard. My (further) argument is that you're blaming a demographic for the misrepresentation it suffers in the media. The media is the perpetrator of that misrepresentation. People shouldn't be restricted because of the idiocy of others, and nobody should be blamed for the actions of completely different people.

Now, if you were making a purely practical point, that would be one thing, but I don't think you are. You used the word "despise".

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I'd find myself thoroughly squared under the great, multicoloured umbrella. Though I'd find my quarter under the pastel blue, pink and white.

 

[Grace_Omega]

I'm trans. Represent.