Poll: Which competitive genre, do you think is hardest to get good at?

Lufia Erim

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Competitive gaming has become quite popular in recent years. While competive games have existed for long time , like tetris and Street fighter doom and starcraft , etc. In the last few years competitive gaming has grown exponentially. Be it LoL , counter strike , Street fighter 4 , starcraft 2 or the array of other many games in various genre, the amount of participants and viewers and even mediacoverage has blown up.

While there is probably no objective answer, i'm curious to which genre of competitive games do you personally think is hardest to get good at.Not necessarilly which would be hardest for you to get good at, but the average person. Fighting games have spacing and combos to master, RTS has micromangement , FPS has reflexes,accuracy and communication , Mobas have teamwork and coordination and so on and so forth.Those genres are just examples, if you know of any other genres that may be harder to master feel to add thoses. And why.
 

Politrukk

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RTS's don't just have micromanagement.
They require reflexes, macromanagement, alertness, adaptability.

To me RTS is the most difficult, it has a steep learning curve that doesn't carry over between games and when you're even scratching the top you might find out there's always someone who's just that second ahead of you.

You can lose an RTS in the first minute.

A moba can always be turned around due to the longevity of the game and the fact that someone can't simply outbuild you because there are only so many minions to kill and buffs run on timers.
A shooter can be turned around over the course of different rounds, alternating strategies and are very fast paced to begin with and then again no matter how good a player is you might always get lucky with a grenade.

Sports games have a very low learning curve and just a high peak, but when they peak it's never as impressive.

Turn based strategy is mathematics, so... if you're good at mathematics you'll probably be better there and if you arent you aren't, you just need to keep calculating your moves and exclude possiblities as you go along.


So yes to me RTS's.


Edit:
Personal example,
I love Age of Empires 2 and I know how to play the game, I know the tactics all the big shots use and I try to adapt them, but just knowing is not enough and when we play with friends one can often see the immense discrepancies between players even though everyone is arguably playing with reasonable speed and stratagem.
 

Silvanus

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I vote RTS. Take a great deal of strategic thinking, but without even the respite and time to breath that you get in turn-based games.
 

AlouetteSK

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I'd have to argue fighting games are just as hard to get into as RTS due to how hard it is to get into the competitive scene. Most people like watching streams and VoDs of both, but it takes a lot of losses in order to improve yourself, both require meta strategy as well as lightning-fast reaction times.
 

duwenbasden

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AlouetteSK said:
I'd have to argue fighting games are just as hard to get into as RTS due to how hard it is to get into the competitive scene. Most people like watching streams and VoDs of both, but it takes a lot of losses in order to improve yourself, both require meta strategy as well as lightning-fast reaction times.
Starcraft is all that; now imagine adding 2 more characters you have to control separately, on the same screen.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Individual skill cap? Real time strategy (presuming the RTS in question has a high level of complexity).

Overall skill cap? MOBAs. The individual skill cap is still very high (unreachable for most), but you need to work in situational awareness of not one but five enemies, and four teammates as well. You're also introduced to a constantly changing game state depending on team compositions and item builds.

You're not "piano playing" like you would in a high skill game of RTS, but the iterative knowledge required to make optimal decisions is staggering.
 

CrystalShadow

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BloatedGuppy said:
Individual skill cap? Real time strategy (presuming the RTS in question has a high level of complexity).

Overall skill cap? MOBAs. The individual skill cap is still very high (unreachable for most), but you need to work in situational awareness of not one but five enemies, and four teammates as well. You're also introduced to a constantly changing game state depending on team compositions and item builds.

You're not "piano playing" like you would in a high skill game of RTS, but the iterative knowledge required to make optimal decisions is staggering.
Although I don't recall seeing it much in competive spaces, I've gone through enough 3, 4 or 5 way rts battles to question that point somewhat.
Granted, the limited number of factions makes even a 5 way match in something like supreme commander fairly easy to guess at if you are experienced enough. (4 factions, roughly 5 or six viable large-scale strategies, with faction specific quirks to them, and lots of peculiar tactical options... That's without getting into any kind of micro... Though it isn't really the most micro-focused rts around...)
 

LostTrigger

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Definitely Rts games. They require the most focus and not noticing one event could cost you the entire match. And also you have to be quick about everything you do, moving to slow can also cost you the match
 

BloatedGuppy

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CrystalShadow said:
Although I don't recall seeing it much in competive spaces, I've gone through enough 3, 4 or 5 way rts battles to question that point somewhat.

Granted, the limited number of factions makes even a 5 way match in something like supreme commander fairly easy to guess at if you are experienced enough. (4 factions, roughly 5 or six viable large-scale strategies, with faction specific quirks to them, and lots of peculiar tactical options... That's without getting into any kind of micro... Though it isn't really the most micro-focused rts around...)
I played Starcraft 2 up to about diamond level, I'd say it's one of the higher skill cap games in the genre on the market. The coordination required in team games isn't really comparable to a MOBA. The games aren't really built off the concept of team-mate interplay and synergies. Certainly having more of everything complicates matters, but I'd still say MOBAs have the higher general skill cap.

Naturally both genres have a skill cap higher than 99.9999% of players will ever get close to, so it gets to a point of picking nits. I felt like I was able to compete at a higher level in SC2 than DOTA, but that might just be the peculiarities of my play style at work, or encroaching age dulling my reflexes.
 

Scarim Coral

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Real Time Strategy since there are ALOT to think about like e.g.

What units to make first, who to send out to attack first.
Base location and progress of upgrade.
Move your units in a tatical manner.
Even trying to outwit/ defeat your opponent take alot of considering (sheer number, focus on the leader unit/ based or overwhelming firepowers)

The others in the list have fewer things to think about (fighting game like what moves to used, MOBA is which characters to used and its stats and it pro and con and FPS is about moving and aiming.)
 

WhiteFangofWhoa

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Either MOBAs or RTS, both genres being extremely cryptic at higher levels. Thing is, even if you are good at a MOBA it's sometimes hard to recognize, because you will still lose lots of games if your team is worse on average no matter how good you are individually. It would technically be possible to become good enough to win every RTS match you play, but not with a MOBA.

I feel like I've improved over the years since DOTA 1 due to less deaths on average and learning to use many more heroes effectively, but if you're fighting a losing battle, your team's momentum will eventually catch up with you and you'll get a ton of deaths late game trying to save your base.
 

TheSlothOverlord

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BloatedGuppy said:
CrystalShadow said:
Although I don't recall seeing it much in competive spaces, I've gone through enough 3, 4 or 5 way rts battles to question that point somewhat.

Granted, the limited number of factions makes even a 5 way match in something like supreme commander fairly easy to guess at if you are experienced enough. (4 factions, roughly 5 or six viable large-scale strategies, with faction specific quirks to them, and lots of peculiar tactical options... That's without getting into any kind of micro... Though it isn't really the most micro-focused rts around...)
I played Starcraft 2 up to about diamond level, I'd say it's one of the higher skill cap games in the genre on the market. The coordination required in team games isn't really comparable to a MOBA. The games aren't really built off the concept of team-mate interplay and synergies. Certainly having more of everything complicates matters, but I'd still say MOBAs have the higher general skill cap.

Naturally both genres have a skill cap higher than 99.9999% of players will ever get close to, so it gets to a point of picking nits. I felt like I was able to compete at a higher level in SC2 than DOTA, but that might just be the peculiarities of my play style at work, or encroaching age dulling my reflexes.
Then again the question was which genre is the hardest to get GOOD at, not which one has the highest skill cap.

Admittedly "good" is kind of a vague term. Are we talking just decent-good or professional-good?

I voted RTS but then again I only ever played RTS and MOBAs in a competitive manner. I've played LoL for about 4 years and afterwards DOTA 2 for maybe 1 year before I became tired of the genre overall, after which I started playing SC 2.
It just seems so much harder to become a good player in Starcraft then it was in either LoL or DOTA. So much more shit to do. (DO note that I'm talking from the position of someone who has never played at a truly high level in any of these games).

In MOBAs you have to be good at controlling your hero (and possibly a few other units), have map awareness and try to counter your opponent's item build/heroes.

In Starcraft you have to micro multiple units, while still keeping up with your macro (producing workers, units and making buildings, getting upgrades etc.) and of course you have to remember to scout your opponent and know what he's up to all the while thinking about your own strategy.

Again, I can't really talk about high-level or professional play... but it seems to be much harder to simply become decent at Starcraft than in MOBAs.
 

BloatedGuppy

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TheSlothOverlord said:
Then again the question was which genre is the hardest to get GOOD at, not which one has the highest skill cap.

Admittedly "good" is kind of a vague term. Are we talking just decent-good or professional-good?
That is why I went to skill cap. "Good" is an entirely relative term. I'm a mid 2000's DOTA player. I'm amazing compared to a 1000 player, and utter trash to a 3500. Am I "good"? Was getting to diamond at launch "good"? I can't even come close to touching the better SC2 players. What is "good"?
 

Alleged_Alec

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TheSlothOverlord said:
BloatedGuppy said:
In MOBAs you have to be good at controlling your hero (and possibly a few other units), have map awareness and try to counter your opponent's item build/heroes.

In Starcraft you have to micro multiple units, while still keeping up with your macro (producing workers, units and making buildings, getting upgrades etc.) and of course you have to remember to scout your opponent and know what he's up to all the while thinking about your own strategy.
That's an unfair way of putting it. I could just as well say this:

In SC you have to be good at controlling multiple units, have map awareness and try to counter you opponent's build.

In ASSFAGGOTS you have to micro your unit (and possibly groups of others as well), make sure your farm doesn't fall behind while still contributing in team fights, make sure you have vision and scout the Rosh pit while keeping up with what each of your five opponents as well as your four party members are doing.


Because of the assymetric detail in either of our explanations, it looks like one is much harder than the other.
 

TheSlothOverlord

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BloatedGuppy said:
TheSlothOverlord said:
Then again the question was which genre is the hardest to get GOOD at, not which one has the highest skill cap.

Admittedly "good" is kind of a vague term. Are we talking just decent-good or professional-good?
That is why I went to skill cap. "Good" is an entirely relative term. I'm a mid 2000's DOTA player. I'm amazing compared to a 1000 player, and utter trash to a 3500. Am I "good"? Was getting to diamond at launch "good"? I can't even come close to touching the better SC2 players. What is "good"?
Well, I guess I understood "good" as someone who is simply a "decent enough" player. That is they more or less understand the whole game and can watch competitive play while understanding almost everything the players do, but they don't really have the skills yet to be compete in a tournament.

So I dunno... maybe high-platinum - diamond league in Starcraft. I heard that around 3k mmr was considered average in DOTA and 4k was supposed to be pretty good.
Alleged_Alec said:
TheSlothOverlord said:
BloatedGuppy said:
In MOBAs you have to be good at controlling your hero (and possibly a few other units), have map awareness and try to counter your opponent's item build/heroes.

In Starcraft you have to micro multiple units, while still keeping up with your macro (producing workers, units and making buildings, getting upgrades etc.) and of course you have to remember to scout your opponent and know what he's up to all the while thinking about your own strategy.
That's an unfair way of putting it. I could just as well say this:

In SC you have to be good at controlling multiple units, have map awareness and try to counter you opponent's build.

In ASSFAGGOTS you have to micro your unit (and possibly groups of others as well), make sure your farm doesn't fall behind while still contributing in team fights, make sure you have vision and scout the Rosh pit while keeping up with what each of your five opponents as well as your four party members are doing.


Because of the assymetric detail in either of our explanations, it looks like one is much harder than the other.
That's because I was describing my subjective experiences. It simply seems to me that Starcraft has a lot more things to watch out for, but my opinion might be skewed because I've played MOBAs for years and certain things just seem obvious to me. If your experience was different then please share it, I'd be interested.
 

Alleged_Alec

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TheSlothOverlord said:
That's because I was describing my subjective experiences. It simply seems to me that Starcraft has a lot more things to watch out for, but my opinion might be skewed because I've played MOBAs for years and certain things just seem obvious to me. If your experience was different then please share it, I'd be interested.
Fair enough.

My experience: I suck equally bad at both. Perhaps a bit less at ASSFAGGOTS since I've been playing them for a bit more, but I'm still a huge scrub. The issue is that I suck at micro, which means that most RTS are basically impossible for me to be good at. My issue with the other is that my teamplay is plain bad, I suck at getting farm and during the late mid-game when things slow down I tend to do too little.
 

Pyrian

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Meh; it is the nature of competitively play that to be "really good" you have to be better than other people. So the primary challenge is not the game, it's your competition. Unless the game plateaus early (with the obvious example being tic-tac-toe) the measure of difficulty of a competitive game is how much time your adversaries are putting into it, which in turn means that the primary measure of the original question is going to simply be how popular the game is.

The more popular the game, the more people are spending more time practicing it, the harder it is going to be to beat those people.
 

BloatedGuppy

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TheSlothOverlord said:
Well, I guess I understood "good" as someone who is simply a "decent enough" player. That is they more or less understand the whole game and can watch competitive play while understanding almost everything the players do, but they don't really have the skills yet to be compete in a tournament.
You can have the qualitative knowledge you need to understand the average RTS game after playing an easy campaign and playing at bronze level. The mechanics and interplay of said mechanics is actually quite simple. It's the execution that is ludicrously difficult.

See, I played at high platinum/diamond Starcraft, and I don't consider myself remotely "good". A lot of the people I played against weren't good either. There was a ton of cheese, and a lot of one dimensional players who...if they couldn't cash in on their tried and true strategy...fell to pieces due to sub-standard mechanics. You watch a pro game and they might as well be playing another game entirely.

Games with exceptionally high skill caps like MOBAs or RTS games...it becomes almost impossible to claim that you're "good" at them, one man's good is another man's trash.

TheSlothOverlord said:
I heard that around 3k mmr was considered average in DOTA and 4k was supposed to be pretty good.
It changes all the time. Kind of hard to find stats on (or I don't know where to look). From a year ago...

Remember that the ranked MMR only considers players who actually queue for ranked games - i.e. people with at least 150 games played who want to play "competetively" in the ranking system. So if you are above 2250 rating, you are playing better than 50% of players who have played 10 ranked games. People who are saying 3000 is average are wrong - if you are rated 3000 you are in the top 20% of players, and playing quite a bit above average. I would venture to guess that the skill level among players who are queueing for ranked matches is higher than that of the general DOTA 2 population as well, so even people who end up in the bottom 25% (below 2000) could be better than the average non-competetive dota player
People do tend to exaggerate what is "average" skill, likely for e-peen reasons.
 

Joccaren

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I'm at a toss up between RTS and 4X TBS.

One the one hand, RTS has a pacing issue against you. Everything is on a time, and you need to move quickly or else you'll fail. TBS doesn't deal with this, and you have as much time as you need usually.

That said, the level of depth is hugely different.
RTSs play quite differently to each other, but one constant is the same as RPGs: Builds.
In general, you pick a build at the start of the match, begin that build whilst quickly scouting your enemy, and then judge which builds your enemy is not suited to, and make sure you're suited to countering all other builds.
Early game in RTS, after a little bit of practice, is fairly easy.
Mid game is largely micromanagement and needing to multitask. Build and expand, scout the enemy, and ensure your troops fight well by microing them. This becomes reasonably easy once you get the hang of hotkeys and number groups, but is probably the hardest part of it overall.
Late game, IMO, only really appears when two good players [Or equally matched, I guess, sometimes] face off against each other. Otherwise the game is usually decided in the mid game, and its just a cleanup afterwards. Late game is probably the most tactical part of the game. You've done your set build. You've survived and expanded, and now your economy is on the decline as resources run out, whilst rapid skirmishes deplete your military faster than you can rebuild. It becomes a game of bluffs in some ways, as well as fast reaction and good judgement. Its a juggle of balancing your expansion so that you can get enough resources, with your military so that you can defend them, and you can't just look up a build order as how you do that changes depending on the outcome of the midgame.

So, RTS games do have tactical skill and depth, though early on that's just abstracted behind simple builds and such. They also have a time scale.

With 4X games, you often can't have it go past in real time, as you need all that extra time to manage everything else in your empire. The number of interplaying systems, the match size, types of resources, technology tree - a whole different level to an RTS. Whereas RTS games have a lot of simply designed builds, and those builds are easy to find due to the low number of interplaying systems, 4X games somewhat transcend that. Not to say they don't have builds, as that'd be a false, however its a lot harder to come up with those builds. Especially where maps are randomised rather than standard symmetric arena maps with fixed starting positions, certain builds can become entirely useless based off the terrain around you. Some competitive games would have arena styled matches, others realise it takes a lot of the strategy out of the match and instead use a game's often inbuilt 'balanced start' function, where it will try to balance resource allocation around each player, but still provide a random terrain such that neither player can simply rely on a pre-determined build. Because of this, a lot of builds will often have very vague guidelines rather than "Turn 10, build this" like you get in RTSs. It'll be "Build this building sometime when you can, because its the best building for helping you get to your victory style", or "This is the optimal research tree to get this technology first", however stipulations have to be given for if you have a town that has very low production, or food, and needs those facilities built more urgently than your victory facilities, or if you need a certain happiness technology more at this point in order to keep half your cities from revolting.
Hell, a big debate was had about whether to move your starting unit first turn, or settle down ASAP for Civ. People can't even agree on what to do in the first turn, let alone the rest of the game.
The number of routes to victory also complicates things. Whereas an RTS is victory only through destroying the other player's buildings entirely, RTS have conquest, diplomatic [Usually discounted as it doesn't work competitively], technology, cultural, domination...
And it can be a lot harder to tell what build your opponent is going for. Far from just sending a worker over to their base and microing it around so its not instantly killed, or sending a cloaked/fast flying scout, RTS games often have dedicated mechanics for finding out information on the other player, involving spies and another form of resource related to spy tasks. Simply seeing an enemy's base isn't enough, as all that you know from that is that they have a base.
All of this complicates matters such that it is very difficult to know what your opponent is doing, and needing to plan ahead can lead to greater difficulty in reacting to the opponent's plans.

So, I'm kind of torn between the two. Personally I find greater difficulty overall in 4X games, but both are worthy contenders.