Poll: Who do you hate more? Voldemort or Dolores Umbridge?

votemarvel

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Bob_McMillan said:
votemarvel said:
Something has always puzzled me about Grindelwald, how did Dumbledore win their duel?

If Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and the two were reasonably matched magically, surely there would have been no way for Dumbledore to win since the former had the unbeatable wand.

Surely the power of the Elder Wand would have been broken when it was beaten.
Trickery or subterfuge of some sort is usually how it goes.

Or did they specifically say they dueled? I forget.
Dumbledore (the spirit version of him after Harry met Voldemort in the Forbidden Forest) says "Well, you know what happened next. I won the duel, I won the wand."

I remember that line and I swear there are other moments where people comment on how it was amazing to see the two do battle.

So even if Dumbledore was 'a shade more skillful', surely the power of the Elder Wand would have given Grindelwald the edge. If it didn't then it wasn't unbeatable.

Funny thing is that if Voldemort hadn't put so much faith into the Elder Wand in his battle with Harry, then he'd be ruling the wizarding world to this day.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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votemarvel said:
Bob_McMillan said:
votemarvel said:
Something has always puzzled me about Grindelwald, how did Dumbledore win their duel?

If Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and the two were reasonably matched magically, surely there would have been no way for Dumbledore to win since the former had the unbeatable wand.

Surely the power of the Elder Wand would have been broken when it was beaten.
Trickery or subterfuge of some sort is usually how it goes.

Or did they specifically say they dueled? I forget.
Dumbledore (the spirit version of him after Harry met Voldemort in the Forbidden Forest) says "Well, you know what happened next. I won the duel, I won the wand."

I remember that line and I swear there are other moments where people comment on how it was amazing to see the two do battle.

So even if Dumbledore was 'a shade more skillful', surely the power of the Elder Wand would have given Grindelwald the edge. If it didn't then it wasn't unbeatable.

Funny thing is that if Voldemort hadn't put so much faith into the Elder Wand in his battle with Harry, then he'd be ruling the wizarding world to this day.
It being unbeatable was part of the myth around it I think, rather than a fact.


Also, have to chime in and say while Voldemort is just the worse one, Umbridge feels like she has a personal presence in the story that Voldemort does not. While Voldemort's out doing his evil dark lord business, it's people like Umbridge (and Snape too) that are directly there bullying people. It's easier to hate Umbridge because you get to see her cruel streak in every single personal petty way it exists. For Voldemort it's all grand sweeping things. It's like hating Sauron.
 

Drathnoxis

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votemarvel said:
Something has always puzzled me about Grindelwald, how did Dumbledore win their duel?

If Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and the two were reasonably matched magically, surely there would have been no way for Dumbledore to win since the former had the unbeatable wand.

Surely the power of the Elder Wand would have been broken when it was beaten.
Grindelwald probably sold his old wand or gave it to the Salvation Army or something, unwittingly losing ownership of every wand he's ever touched, and Dumbledore went and disarmed whoever currently possessed it thus giving him ownership over the Death Stick.

Really, the Elder Wand was the dumbest plot device in any of the books. The way wand ownership was retroactively changed to make it work makes no sense and the rest of the Hallows had no relevance and were only invented to add more substance to the stupid Elder Wand myth.
 

Bob_McMillan

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votemarvel said:
Bob_McMillan said:
votemarvel said:
Something has always puzzled me about Grindelwald, how did Dumbledore win their duel?

If Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and the two were reasonably matched magically, surely there would have been no way for Dumbledore to win since the former had the unbeatable wand.

Surely the power of the Elder Wand would have been broken when it was beaten.
Trickery or subterfuge of some sort is usually how it goes.

Or did they specifically say they dueled? I forget.
Dumbledore (the spirit version of him after Harry met Voldemort in the Forbidden Forest) says "Well, you know what happened next. I won the duel, I won the wand."

I remember that line and I swear there are other moments where people comment on how it was amazing to see the two do battle.

So even if Dumbledore was 'a shade more skillful', surely the power of the Elder Wand would have given Grindelwald the edge. If it didn't then it wasn't unbeatable.

Funny thing is that if Voldemort hadn't put so much faith into the Elder Wand in his battle with Harry, then he'd be ruling the wizarding world to this day.
I went to the Potter wikia (I'm ashamed, I've read the whole series 4 or 5 times), and it says Grindelwand stole it from Gregorovitch, which I suppose means he wasn't truly worthy of the Elder Wand.

But as Drathnoxis said, the Elder Wand doesn't make much sense, does it?
 

BloatedGuppy

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The guy who killed people. Like a lot of people.

I mean, yeah, Umbridge reminds people of every shitty teacher they had that hated them, but the fact that she gets more hate than the actual villain of the series has always kind of weirded me out.
It's not really weird, though. Umbridge is a much better written/realized character than Voldemort, even if she is a Nurse Ratched approximation. Rowling was improving as a writer and learning to create more nuanced characters, including nuanced forms of "evil"...in this case more banal, less overt. Voldemort is pure fantasy nonsense, he has nothing remotely resembling a grounded motive. She tries to work on this a bit with flashbacks in the final books but she's written herself into a corner with what essentially amounts to "Magic Hitler".
 

Sonmi

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Voldemort.

Umbridge fits the description of one of my grandmothers to a tee, I can't possibly dislike the character.
 

TrulyBritish

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I vote neither. My vote is for the entire Wizarding World (Well, fine just Britain really as thats the only one we know) to be the much more frightening aspect of the books. Consider these:
1a) The rampant corruption/poor management within the Ministry of Magic. First off we have the fact that the MoM apparently has so much control of the news (specifically the Daily Prophet) that they can print border line slander of people the Prime Minister finds uncomfortable as we see in book 5. Then we have the fact that the MoM can extort ridiculous amounts of control over the only known Wizarding school in Britain, putting in place their own inquisitors and being able to dictate the curriculum. Even before book 5, we learn in Chamber of Secrets that Lucius Malfoy was basically able to blackmail the governors into firing Dumbledore.
1b) One of the sympathetic characters (Arthur Weasley) is stated that he would have to arrest himself if he ever raided his own house because he frequently flaunts the rules of his own department.
2) The fantastic amount of racism inherent in the system. Werewolves, despite having a known medical aid in the Wolfsbane potion are treated as predators for having a disease, then there's the prejudice displayed against Giants, Centaurs and possibly the goblins as well. The WW keeps an entire race (house elves) as slaves to be beaten and this is treated as perfectly acceptable, to the extent that Dobby is considered a complete maverick in the fact that he asks for some wages and some small time off for a holiday (Seriously, I never got why we're supposed to think Hermione is some fanatic for wanting to change this). Then of course there's the, admittedly less popular, blood supremacy among certain wizards, and while most wizards don't seem to have a problem with muggle-borns there does seem to be some bad blood towards Squibs.
3) Pretty much every seen instance of wizarding law seems to have some huge flaw. Trials seem to be decided by the whims of whoever in court with Fudge again being shown to try his very best to screw over Harry's trial in book 5 and it doesn't seem much better from what we saw of the Death Eater trials in book 4. The known wizarding prison is guarded solely by literally joy-sucking vampires who only care as long as they are fed. Even the aurors only come off as mildly better, and even then they come off as being inept at investigations (the fact people just seem to accept Voldemort, one of the most powerful wizards known, was killed attacking a baby or their attempts to deal with Sirius) or at police work (seriously, how did they manage to not catch any Death eaters at the Quidditch world cup?). Outside of people like Kinglsey or Mad-Eye the jurors don't come off well (I'm reminded of McGonagall being hit with five stunners when they attack Hagrid in the books).
4) How about the fact that the MoM seems to be completely unable to regulate animagi? We know of at least 4 and 3 of those managed it as teens.
5) Then there's wizarding "pranks" like Love Potions that seem to be basically magical date-rape drugs that (if I'm correct), actually help contribute to Voldemort being as messed up as he is (I'm sure JKR's said outside of the books that the reason Voldemort can't feel love is because of them)
6) There's also the fact that the Minister of Magic nor anyone else sees fit to give any muggle and decent knowledge of the Wizarding World or their troubles, even as Voldemort is murdering people near the Prime Minister. When we add that to all the other stuff I've mentioned how much of a nightmare must it be to protect muggle from wayward wizards?

Ooh boy, this is fun :)
 

Evonisia

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I find Umbridge wonderfully hateable. Rowling did a great job making her loathsome.

I never really hated Voldemort. His actions are more despicable, but he's so cartoonish that I never really felt the weight of his heinous crimes. When I did I felt more intimidated by him than hatred for him.
 

Saetha

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Thaluikhain said:
Gordon_4 said:
Happyninja42 said:
Going to go with the homicidal cult leader that kills dozens if not hundreds of people, enslaves others to his will through magical domination, tortures innocent people for pleasure, ritual sacrifices, world domination, subjugation of the human race to his will
Will he get around to that before or after the S.A.S. and the Royal Marines or an MI-5 hit squad have kicked his teeth in? Voldemort wants to rule the Wizarding World, but the second he sets foot outside that small enclave then he's fucked more ways to Sunday than even the most open-minded prostitute would allow. Hell he should be fucked without doing that since the murder of British citizens on British soil is something Her Majesty's police and security forces take a very dim view.
Eh, he has the advantage of mind controlling anyone sent after him, possibly while being invisible. Yeah, no way that they could keep themselves secret, but it's a given that they somehow do.

Now, when the French Ministry for Magic (assuming they have one) tells the French government that the UK has been overrun by Nazi stand ins...
As I recall, book six or seven confirmed that the heads of muggle government appear to be aware of the Wizarding world and actively try to keep it secret. At the very least, I recall the Minister of Magic having some clandestine meeting with the Prime Minister who was completely aware of who the MOM was and what he did. I'm guessing the set-up is similar in other nations.
 

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TrulyBritish said:
I vote neither. My vote is for the entire Wizarding World (Well, fine just Britain really as thats the only one we know) to be the much more frightening aspect of the books. Consider these:
1a) The rampant corruption/poor management within the Ministry of Magic. First off we have the fact that the MoM apparently has so much control of the news (specifically the Daily Prophet) that they can print border line slander of people the Prime Minister finds uncomfortable as we see in book 5. Then we have the fact that the MoM can extort ridiculous amounts of control over the only known Wizarding school in Britain, putting in place their own inquisitors and being able to dictate the curriculum. Even before book 5, we learn in Chamber of Secrets that Lucius Malfoy was basically able to blackmail the governors into firing Dumbledore.
1b) One of the sympathetic characters (Arthur Weasley) is stated that he would have to arrest himself if he ever raided his own house because he frequently flaunts the rules of his own department.
2) The fantastic amount of racism inherent in the system. Werewolves, despite having a known medical aid in the Wolfsbane potion are treated as predators for having a disease, then there's the prejudice displayed against Giants, Centaurs and possibly the goblins as well. The WW keeps an entire race (house elves) as slaves to be beaten and this is treated as perfectly acceptable, to the extent that Dobby is considered a complete maverick in the fact that he asks for some wages and some small time off for a holiday (Seriously, I never got why we're supposed to think Hermione is some fanatic for wanting to change this). Then of course there's the, admittedly less popular, blood supremacy among certain wizards, and while most wizards don't seem to have a problem with muggle-borns there does seem to be some bad blood towards Squibs.
3) Pretty much every seen instance of wizarding law seems to have some huge flaw. Trials seem to be decided by the whims of whoever in court with Fudge again being shown to try his very best to screw over Harry's trial in book 5 and it doesn't seem much better from what we saw of the Death Eater trials in book 4. The known wizarding prison is guarded solely by literally joy-sucking vampires who only care as long as they are fed. Even the aurors only come off as mildly better, and even then they come off as being inept at investigations (the fact people just seem to accept Voldemort, one of the most powerful wizards known, was killed attacking a baby or their attempts to deal with Sirius) or at police work (seriously, how did they manage to not catch any Death eaters at the Quidditch world cup?). Outside of people like Kinglsey or Mad-Eye the jurors don't come off well (I'm reminded of McGonagall being hit with five stunners when they attack Hagrid in the books).
4) How about the fact that the MoM seems to be completely unable to regulate animagi? We know of at least 4 and 3 of those managed it as teens.
5) Then there's wizarding "pranks" like Love Potions that seem to be basically magical date-rape drugs that (if I'm correct), actually help contribute to Voldemort being as messed up as he is (I'm sure JKR's said outside of the books that the reason Voldemort can't feel love is because of them)
6) There's also the fact that the Minister of Magic nor anyone else sees fit to give any muggle and decent knowledge of the Wizarding World or their troubles, even as Voldemort is murdering people near the Prime Minister. When we add that to all the other stuff I've mentioned how much of a nightmare must it be to protect muggle from wayward wizards?

Ooh boy, this is fun :)
I'll go with this. I always saw the MoM as the ultimate obstructive bureaucracy at best and at worst a riddled with corruption and nepotism old boy network of epic proportion
 

Nazulu

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I don't know. I reckon they were both great in the 5th movie and I really wanted to see them both get their cu-muffins.

Umbridge did kind of steal the show, but then you think about how much shit Harry had to go through just by Living because of Voldemort (that includes Umbridge getting involved in his life at all)... Unfortunately, neither of them got the ending I wish they did (the last movie is fucking atrocious). So my answer is the last movie for ruining the series for me.
 

Thaluikhain

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TrulyBritish said:
2) The fantastic amount of racism inherent in the system. Werewolves, despite having a known medical aid in the Wolfsbane potion are treated as predators for having a disease, then there's the prejudice displayed against Giants, Centaurs and possibly the goblins as well. The WW keeps an entire race (house elves) as slaves to be beaten and this is treated as perfectly acceptable, to the extent that Dobby is considered a complete maverick in the fact that he asks for some wages and some small time off for a holiday (Seriously, I never got why we're supposed to think Hermione is some fanatic for wanting to change this). Then of course there's the, admittedly less popular, blood supremacy among certain wizards, and while most wizards don't seem to have a problem with muggle-borns there does seem to be some bad blood towards Squibs.
IIRC, according to Rowling, once Voldemort was defeated then all the racism and social problems the wizarding world had went with him. Which is exactly how that doesn't work.
 

Cicada 5

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Saelune said:
Umbridge is more despicable because she is a "good guy". She isn't this nefarious boogeyman in the shadows that's gonna get you. She is in charge, in power, and you are supposed to listen to her. Not doing what Voldemort says (assuming you live) gets you badass credit, not doing what Umbridge says gets you detention or worse.
Actually not doing what Voldemort says gets you either tortured or killed or both.
 

TrulyBritish

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Thaluikhain said:
TrulyBritish said:
2) The fantastic amount of racism inherent in the system. Werewolves, despite having a known medical aid in the Wolfsbane potion are treated as predators for having a disease, then there's the prejudice displayed against Giants, Centaurs and possibly the goblins as well. The WW keeps an entire race (house elves) as slaves to be beaten and this is treated as perfectly acceptable, to the extent that Dobby is considered a complete maverick in the fact that he asks for some wages and some small time off for a holiday (Seriously, I never got why we're supposed to think Hermione is some fanatic for wanting to change this). Then of course there's the, admittedly less popular, blood supremacy among certain wizards, and while most wizards don't seem to have a problem with muggle-borns there does seem to be some bad blood towards Squibs.
IIRC, according to Rowling, once Voldemort was defeated then all the racism and social problems the wizarding world had went with him. Which is exactly how that doesn't work.
Wow, really? I know Hermione supposedly goes into wizarding law and solves some stuff but that seems a bit off. Pretty sure Lupin makes it clear that most people are largely prejudiced towards Werwolves and I can't see that disappearing quickly.
As another thought, does Rowling ever make it clear why Voldemort goes largely unopposed during the last book? The wizards in Britain have the excuse that their Ministry had been secretly taken over by a genocidal maniac and everyone was scared to retaliate or who to trust, but what about the wider wizarding world? From their point of view surely they see that Britain has suddenly gone full dictatorship, implementing racist policies against muggle-borns, rampant dementor attacks and murders of prominent wizards/witches and silencing/ arresting all opposition. We never seem to hear anything of other countries taking an interest. Did Voldemort take them over as well? Did they approve of the changes or not care?
Has Rowling ever explained this in her other stuff?
 

The Philistine

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Voldemort is evil in the broad 'I'll trample whatever stands in the way of my goals' kind of way. Umbridge is just petty, mean-spirited cruelty for the sake of it type of evil. Not that Voldemort couldn't be petty I'm sure, just that Umbridge reveled in it. Plus Umbridge personifies every rotten teacher you could possibly come across.
 

Jute88

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Dolores without a doubt. She's somewhat of a realistic bully and a sadist, while He-Who-Mustn't-Be-Named was the Dark Lord of the world of wizardry. Both are good characters in their own right, but Dolores is more realistic.
 

Drathnoxis

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Nazulu said:
I don't know. I reckon they were both great in the 5th movie and I really wanted to see them both get their cu-muffins.

Umbridge did kind of steal the show, but then you think about how much shit Harry had to go through just by Living because of Voldemort (that includes Umbridge getting involved in his life at all)... Unfortunately, neither of them got the ending I wish they did (the last movie is fucking atrocious). So my answer is the last movie for ruining the series for me.
Actually, I want to make this my answer too! I hate that last book more than any other work of fiction. Harry Potter was my absolute favourite book series growing up, and the ending misteps so hard its shinbones rocket out of it's legs and embed themselves in the ceiling. I could write thousands of words about all the ways the finale fails to live up to expectations (and have).
 

Asita

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Well, aside from the fact that Voldemort is more of an off-screen villain and Umbridge is more of an on-screen one, there's also the fact that Umbridge's brand of evil seems more grounded and thus a bit more horrific. Voldemort's a near genocidal mass murderer with a god complex. Umbridge is a sadist who used torture devices on the children she was responsible for. To invoke a more contemporary franchise: If Voldemort could be said to lead the Others/White Walkers, then Umbridge is Ramsey Bolton. The former is the greater threat and easily more terrifying, the latter is perhaps more hateful.

Nazulu said:
I don't know. I reckon they were both great in the 5th movie and I really wanted to see them both get their cu-muffins.
I think you mean comeuppance.
 

Nazulu

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Drathnoxis said:
Nazulu said:
I don't know. I reckon they were both great in the 5th movie and I really wanted to see them both get their cu-muffins.

Umbridge did kind of steal the show, but then you think about how much shit Harry had to go through just by Living because of Voldemort (that includes Umbridge getting involved in his life at all)... Unfortunately, neither of them got the ending I wish they did (the last movie is fucking atrocious). So my answer is the last movie for ruining the series for me.
Actually, I want to make this my answer too! I hate that last book more than any other work of fiction. Harry Potter was my absolute favourite book series growing up, and the ending misteps so hard its shinbones rocket out of it's legs and embed themselves in the ceiling. I could write thousands of words about all the ways the finale fails to live up to expectations (and have).
That was a good read, thanks. The whole debate between you and Pulvia was interesting.
I'm glad you brought up the epilogue. That was what really ticked me off after such an unsatisfying experience.

Your link didn't work but I found it through quoting anyway.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.878659-How-the-Harry-Potter-Series-Should-Have-Ended-Total-Spoilers

Asita said:
Nazulu said:
I don't know. I reckon they were both great in the 5th movie and I really wanted to see them both get their cu-muffins.
I think you mean comeuppance.
You know I do ^^
I typed it into google after hearing it and didn't find a proper way to spell it awhile back. It's there now though.