Poll: Who's Afraid Of Human Rights?

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Labyrinth

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The title of this thread is also the title of a lecture on human rights I attended recently. It brought up the question of whether Australia should have a bill of rights, and what sort of a bill we should have.

Most so-called 'developed' nations around the world have bills of rights enshrining certain human rights either in statutory law or in constitutional law. There are also several different types which are currently under discussion in Australia.

The good old US of A bill of rights is very much an 18th century document. Modern bills of rights don't concern themselves with the billeting of soldiers, or a citizen's right to bare arms, knees or otherwise, but we'll take it to be one example anyway.

Other bills of rights are similar to documents such as the UN resolution on the Rights Of The Child, or the Geneva convention. They outline 'fundamental' human rights which cannot be denied to anyone, by anyone. This includes the right to freedom of expression, freedom from torture etc.

Secondary examples are known as Weak and Strong bills of rights. Weak bills of rights are not constitutional documents, they are written into statutory law instead. This gives much more leeway to governments who wish to override them, as they can be changed through normal parliamentary procedure. The bill, in this fashion, is treated just like any other piece of statutory legislation.

Strong bills of rights are constitutional documents, that is, they must be taken to referendum if any changes are to be made, or indeed when they are to be created. This makes it so much more difficult for governments who seek to subvert it.

There have been many arguments for and against a bill of rights. The most outspoken advocates for argue that if we had one, atrocities such as the Boat People scandals would not have occurred, nor would Australia have taken up the habit of putting asylum seekers into permanent detention in the name of 'security'. According to Human Rights advocates, the point of a bill of rights is to protect the marginalised, the weak, those unable to speak for themselves.

Those who argue against however, state that Human Rights in Australia do not need more protection, as they are already protected enough, and as such anything else would be a waste of money, a waste of time and a waste of effort. Additionally, they state that any such bill would become a so-called 'Lawyers picnic', where lawyers swoop in to make the most they can of case after case of apparent bill violation.

Now do discuss.

Being me, I would like to see a strong UN-style bill of rights introduced to Australia. However I have realised that the country as a whole is not ready for this, so a weak UN-style bill of rights would be a better way to go first.
 

sammyfreak

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While the UN bill of rights has a huge "well duh" factor to it I think it is a pretty good standard to hold mankind to.
 

SilentScope001

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Considering the fact that the right to own guns for self-protection is actually considered a real basic fundemental right for Americans...and the fact that the Bill of Rights also protects the federalistic nature of the US, well...

In any event, I don't think a Human Rights bill is really needed in Australia, mostly because of the "lawyer pincic" argument. The US already deals with too much debate and legalistation over the Bill of Rights already. Trust me, you'd roll your eyes yet again with another Supreme Court case arguing over issues you don't really care. Put it this way: Do you want people to interpt the Austrailian Bill of Rights to be in favor of continued mistreatment of the Boat People? Because, well, it can easily happen, as long as the Courts agree with that interpretion.

Besides, WHAT fundemental rights are we talking about here? I think we can't really start discussing the Bill of Rights until we start laying down groundlines. And if the goal of the Bill of Rights is to protect Boat People, then the Freedom of Speech really wouldn't help in such a situation. The right to immigrate to Austraila? Well that's not really a fundmental right, altough they DID make it that way when they signed that UN Asylum Treaty.

I can't really make any sort of discussion over the Bill of Rights until you give me a list of rights you want protected, so that I can knock them down. Could you consider having a bill that concerns just with the Boat People and the Aslyum issue issue? Get to the heart of the matter, if you will?
 

Labyrinth

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Hokay, so a list then.

1. Right to Dignity of person.
The details of this would be that people cannot be put through degrading or inhumane treatment in police situations etc. Think anti-Guantanamo.

2. Right to freedom of expression.
Does this need explaining?

3. Right to live freely when free of crimes
In the case of the asylum seekers, there were a number of them who have been imprisoned 'permanently' in Australia because there is no-where to deport them to as they are nationless, and the Howard government refused to grant them asylum. These people have broken no laws, and aside from their visa applications being turned down, there is nothing which the government sees wrong. Might I add that this includes children?

4. Rights of the child
This would be similar to the UN statute on children's rights.

5. Right to fair judgement under the law

6. Right to remain silent

..etc. I haven't the political/law knowledge to knock together a full one, so there's a basic few.
 

Zykon TheLich

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avykins post=18.72590.765675 said:
This is to mainly avoid such future problems as the americans right to bare arms.
Gasp! Of course, it all makes sense now! The right to wear a sleeveless shirt without some nutjob accusing you of base corruption with your scandalous exposure of flesh. Way to misunderstand the your forefathers wishes...
 

falcontwin

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Gee I never would have guessed labyrinth was a student (all the roll eyed smileys in the universe)Grow up get over yoourself, teenagers dont have all the answers to anything.

"At 18 I found my father to be such an intolerable ignorant bore, by the time I was 21 I was surprised how much the old man had learned in 3 years"
 

Labyrinth

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falcontwin post=18.72590.765796 said:
Gee I never would have guessed labyrinth was a student (all the roll eyed smileys in the universe)Grow up get over yoourself, teenagers dont have all the answers to anything.

"At 18 I found my father to be such an intolerable ignorant bore, by the time I was 21 I was surprised how much the old man had learned in 3 years"
Get over my age and contribute to the discussion. For fuck's sake.
 

falcontwin

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Sorry but It's hard to.

Teenagers...
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words...When I was young, we were taught to be discret and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint." - Hesiod, 800 B.C.

Don't think your new progressive thoughts are anything special
 

Labyrinth

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falcontwin post=18.72590.765807 said:
Sorry but It's hard to.

Teenagers...
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words...When I was young, we were taught to be discret and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint." - Hesiod, 800 B.C.

Don't think your new progressive thoughts are anything special
Let me put it another helpful way. Ignore the fact that I'm a teenager and think about the topic. I'm aware that I don't know everything, and don't have the life experience to make descisions with every possible outcome thought of. Rubbing it in my face isn't going to change one damn thing. So either sod off, or say something worth paying attention to.
 

Ancalagon

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I think that there's quite a lot of bias in the question. I mean, here in Britain, if you offer the choice between a US-style ice-cream or an internationally-recognised kick in the nuts, nine times out of ten, the interviewee will be clutching their nether regions.

Also, in your OP, you say that the the US Bill of Rights contains protections that are no longer relevant, but that you'll include it anyway. But it also contains rights of free speech, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, right to trial by jury and many other rights that are relevant today.

The main difference, as I see it, between a US-style Bill of rights and the UN documents that you mention is length. The American Bill of Rights seeks to provide some simply stated, over-arching principles to protect the rights of its citizens, whereas the UN documents try to be more specific, outlawing particular situations, and setting standards over particular issues. The UN documents have the advantage that in these particular situations, there is clear guidance on the matter, where under the American system, if it is unclear how the relevant Amendment is to be applied in this situation, then it's up to the Supreme Court to decide.

But I think that that's also the strength of the US system. Because the articles of the Bill of Rights are simple statements of rights, they can be read through a zeitgeist lens to give the fine detail, and common sense can be applied - but the spirit of the article has to be maintained. In other words, a Supreme Court judge can make a ruling that 'nudges' the interpretation of the law towards something more appropriate for the present day: but he can't interpret the article to mean the opposite that it states; neither can a series of 'nudges' get the interpretation of the article to that state.

Because of the flexibility of the US system, it has longevity. It's a little unfair to compare it to UN declarations, as UN declarations tend to be ignored by countries for whom they are no longer convenient. But comparing the US Bill of Rights to longer, more specific constitutional documents from around the world, it has survived incredibly well. Of course, you could say it's far better to have a document that is very specific, but that gets torn up every twenty years, or changed a thousand times in order to keep pace with the times, but I'm going to plump for the US Bill of Rights.
 

falcontwin

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Ok I'll say something then. Having a bill of rights Is wortheless simply because anytime anything bad happens to your country they become revised and revoked in the name of freedom. The only "right" that has held up in americaland is the right to bear arms.

A system where all people are free to live their lives as they see fit is far better than a list of rules that define what freedom means.

Freedom means you are in control of your life. Rather than "I am free because the government allows me to be". As the latter can be revoked at any time
 

Labyrinth

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falcontwin post=18.72590.765856 said:
Freedom means you are in control of your life. Rather than "I am free because the government allows me to be". As the latter can be revoked at any time
That is the point of having what is termed a 'strong' bill, ie. one which must go to referendum before being changed. This prevents the government from tossing it out on a whim. Even a weak bill has the High Court to back it up if the government violates it.

Additionally, the US model is not the only one available.
 

Mathew952

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You know, with all of the money governments spend on things like "Studying the DNA of sea bass", I think we have the time and money for more human rights.
 

falcontwin

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Our government has no such protections, but do we need them? If kevin rudd woke up tommorrow and decided we were all going to be his slaves how long do you think he would last?

The U.S constitution is a great thing as far as a symbol of defying the crown goes but in modern times it's is more of a crutch than a tool.

I.E do you need your rights to be written down before you will fight for them?
 

Labyrinth

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falcontwin post=18.72590.765894 said:
Our government has no such protections, but do we need them? If kevin rudd woke up tommorrow and decided we were all going to be his slaves how long do you think he would last?

The U.S constitution is a great thing as far as a symbol of defying the crown goes but in modern times it's is more of a crutch than a tool.

I.E do you need your rights to be written down before you will fight for them?
Having a bill of rights is about laying down a humane standard for everyone, the mainstream and the marginalised. It's a safeguard against the majority turning on one group, let's say Muslims as an example in this day and age and deciding to persecute them. Due to the nature of politics, the leaders would go along because it's the popular thing to do, but it doesn't make it morally right. This bill would prevent say, unfair imprisonment and torture of that persecuted group.
 

ThePlasmatizer

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If I'm not mistaken Australians already have constitutional rights that are enforced by law.

@age discussion

There is a difference between questioning what we all already know and discarding it, regarding it as useless and being disrespectful to those who helped to establish these ideas.
 

Labyrinth

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ThePlasmatizer post=18.72590.765907 said:
If I'm not mistaken Australians already have constitutional rights that are enforced by law.
We don't. The only thing the constitution actually says is about the separation of the different levels of government, and who can vote. There is also a passage, I believe, about recognising Aboriginal people as citizens. That's pretty much it.