Ok, I think I can do this. However, it feels like I've come back to a desk with a pile of documents and rotten fruit in my bowl. lol
Adeptus Aspartem said:
I snipped the first part completly. See, we just have to disagree on that part. The only thing i get is that you question how he could become so jaded. Well, because the writer wrote the character like that, it's fine if someone doesn't think that's how it would work, but clearly Toby disagrees there. There's no further explanation, since it's fiction written by someone.
But less arguing, on to the question about the timelines. In the fight Sans says this: " our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... "
So he's talkin' about mutliples. Also we know from Flowey through all the diffrent playthroughs, that he tinkered with the timelines massively - probably even more so than the player. And also in a much longer timeframe.
The last part is can't be said 100% certain and is open to interpretation. The only time, where it seems plasubile for Sans to be part of that science team was when Gaster was still alive because of the timelines. Tori left after Chara died because Asgore became so enraged, she didn't know either Sans nor Alphys, who became the new scientist.
Also when you talk to the shopkeeper, she tells you that these skeletons just apperead out of nowhere years ago and asserted themselves on the village.
We don't know the exact timeframe since Chara's death and Frisks arrival, it could be a few months it could be decades. People thought the outfits (the gear) you can find from the other dead kids are not just "dress ups" but each belong to a certain time. And the game plays in 20xx but you can find cowboy outfits, so go figure if that theory is true.
But even if it's not we're talkin' quite some time.
Sure, since we can't confrim everything we could argue about that. But i just take what the game shows me. If it's not that way, then yes Sans wouldn't make that much sense, but since this is a possiblity i just go with Occams Razor.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
I would like if you checked my other questions in post 99. I believe I brought up some things that don't make much sense there, like why Sans doesn't act more on the genocide route when it's most important, and how he knows you're going to reset after you killed his brother the first time, or any time really. Unless you did and I just wasn't satisfied.
Anyway, like you, I mostly just take whatever artists wants to show me (I always know I can look for flaws but I try not to). It's only when I was near the end of the genocide run and was facing Sans that I realised it's his stupid fault he didn't do a bloody thing earlier! (I know this is repeating myself, but I think it's a bit different when I share my first impressions, because I think this ain't movin' anymore.)
So I lost sympathy for the guy. Sure, he's down because he feels his life is on repeat, but at the same time, he could've intervened, because what else is he going to do? What else does he have in his life to make him happy? According to everything we see in the game, Fuck All! Hell, wouldn't you try something different every time you felt deja vu? Would you not try it once to bring to other peoples attention to maybe actually solve the problem for once? You fucking would! You would've done it ages ago too. (I really thought this while during my first fight with him)
We can agree to disagree, no problem, and I appreciate all the time you spent here with me. However, I will always say he's missing some cognitive thinking, making him incredibly stupid.
Adeptus Aspartem said:
What i meant with unfair is, that on one side you cite things like the Bridge apparently is definitly the only entrance - because that's what we saw. But on the other side you start talkin' about unbreakable doors, which we havent seen.
Either we talk about what's 100% canon or we talk about "if it would be RL and we would be there, what other options could we use".
In the end? Nothing. Frisk survives Asriel as a basically god throwing Kamehamehas in his face. Chara destroys worlds. The monsters have nothing to stop Frisk except makin' the player quit, be it through having a happy end or on the Genocide trying to make them give up.
Also Asgore not using the souls is not illogical. He doesnt want to use them, he refuses it, he doesn't even want to kill the children. I can completly feel with him, doing something you don't really want and just meandering in a middle ground between a rock and hard place and you're not happy with either decision.
And no, in RL it's not always the hero story where people pull through at the last second and "do the right thing" and the game shows that over and over again. Those characters fail, they fail really hard, they're trapped in a limbo of despair and it's up to Frisk or Chara to either bring them love or LOVE and end the underground once and for all.
I know i'm jumpin' points here, but:
No matter how you look at it, they have the technology, but they can't defend themselves against one child?
Nope they cant. Monsters are barely physical. They hate violence, their Atk/Def shows that. Only 6 people down there can somewhat fight, the 2 boss monsters and 2 wierd scientist gaster-related skeletons and Undyne and a friggin Robot.
They can't even beat a human child on a pacifist run who's at Lv 1.
During the war the monsters were nearly wiped out and humans did not suffer 1 casualty. Yes, a mere child with a toy knife can eradicate all monsters.
That's the premise. You can find that incredible stupid, but it's not like the game isn't makin' that premise very clear.
When I said unbreakable doors, I meant the ones you needed to do puzzles to open in Hotlands (they seem impenetrable). I did not say "Asgore not using the souls is illogical", I said the other monsters not getting annoyed and lobbying criticism for not using the souls already is not logical. Unless they aren't that diverse in thought, but that's pretty lame.
Your last paragraph doesn't answer me at all, and you've already said that, I think more than once too (or it was that other guy). I didn't say I had a problem with once kid beating the whole monster race with a toy knife, that's fine with me. What you're not comprehending is, they did defend themselves at first. They did attack. Now on the genocide route when Sans and Alphy's know that you've gone psycho really early on, they didn't tell some others like, well... almost all your victims, including Muffet, the Royal Guards, and Fucking Asgore! And they don't do shit to help and stop the menace, like closing up Hotlands for good, and bombing the kid (which I'm always going to bring up till I see some evidence that Alphys saw the child as invincible). All these options all of us would think of straight away without a doubt. In fact, there is no reason why they couldn't bomb and then retreat.
You and everyone else can keep repeating how they can't stop Frisk, but they didn't know that, and it's still the smarter option by far (you are not going to change my mind here). Including, Alpys said she "was originally going to stop you" if she didn't grow attached to you when watching you on the screen. That's evidence she could, but everyone that could do something went retarded through our genocide run all of a sudden. Even if you had evidence that they believed the child became unstoppable, it's still the stupid option to hide because after Frisk killed a whole lot to achieve perfection, then it would've left them fucked if Frisk could get out (because the most important monsters all died), and if they didn't think that then she/he would be around forever (so still fucked).
They didn't plan ahead, but what really happened is that the genocide mode was not completed properly. It's easy for artists to make mistakes, especially in something as complex as this. And no, I can't pretend it all makes sense when it doesn't for me. No one here (and before) has been able to answer by biggest problems, just repeat things I already know.
Adeptus Aspartem said:
PS: I recommend reading all of Flowey other Judgements here: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Flowey
He's acutally one of the best source of information.
PPS: Ah, that also explains your other question about Flowey not running from or fighting Chara. He knew he couldn't outrun her forever, she has the power to shape the world so he obviously could try it, i give you that, but keep in mind inside Flowey is a 6-10y old boy, who was just terrified of his impending death.
PPPS (this is getting stupid): If you're on genocide flowey says "we're inseperable after all these years" - so that's the answer to the "how long is this shit going" question.
Yeah, I thought it was Flowey. Thanks to you and
aegix for reminding me.
I appreciate the link but I already looked there way before, it doesn't convince me though.
I can understand that him being young would make him more afraid of death, but I still feel like it's out of character because he's thrown himself in harms way so many times. He would have a lot of experience, and even asking you to kill him at the end of your first run, I don't believe pain was the biggest deal. Also, does he really know if Chara can 'shape the world'? I'm guessing some would say he felt Chara's power when he became scared, but that doesn't make much sense to me either.
Adeptus Aspartem said:
Anyway, i hope you're not takin' anything as agressive or anything, i'm just enjoying chatting about a great game and hearing some other prespectives on it - even if i don't agree with all of them.
Same here. I hope this is all easy to take in. It's kinda overwhelming to me now
I'm not sure I love Undertale, but it's possibly my 3rd highest game in my greatest game
so far list. It's a big deal.
