Poll: WikiLeaks - Good or bad?

[Cazza]

I don't think it was good or bad. It just another for the news to report. Nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

 

[the clockmaker]

1. Soldier dispositions were shown on a psychiatric evaluation report and recent events. Soldiers had a contest on how many afghans they can kill and frame them to look like terrorists. No wikileaks, just old fashioned anonymous whistle blowing inside the base. The higher chain of command knew about it but didn't care and it wasn't until it become public knowledge did they finally do anything.

2. He was given information, which is not espionage it is more along the lines of freedom of press. Espionage is mostly limited to agents working for a foreign country.

3. Only diplomacy was affected, military operations were more or less remained the same. Military operations are much harder to get to than diplomatic papers. The leak merely revealed things we already knew and even exposed some shady shit that America shouldn't be doing.

4. Because he actually does things the journalists should have been doing. Now its just Justin Beiber 24/7. They are up his ass so much they should be checking for ass cancer while they are up there. The tangible effect remains to be seen. Effects are not explained as if it was Fallout 2. Time reveals the effects of an action, not an announcer. If what i read from these reports are true, national security and diplomacy wont mean anything in the near future anyway.

1. You said literally full of psychopaths. Please actually provide evidence of at least a majority. Are there psychopaths in the military, yes, should they be punished, yes, do their actions reflect negitively on the rest of the service, yes. Does that make all of them psychopaths and therefore to be treated as criminals at every turn. How many soldiers do you know personally, because, as I said, in the two years living amongst the USMC (and 15+years living amongst the ADF) I have seen little justification for phrases such as 'literally full of psychopaths'

2. Espionage is other states, hostile enemies of the state and non state actors. He is a non state actor communicating with comprimised elements within the US govt. to obtain secrect documents, I mean, do you want him to buy a white cat and start torturing MI6 agents?!

3. See my post on the negative effects this has had on diplomacy, It doesn't need to comprimise ongoing military actions to be detrimental to military actions in the long term. See also my points about getting your hands dirty for the greater good. I don't mind if oyu disagree with my points, that is after all what makes discussions like this fun, but please don't ignore important sections of my argument.

4. This is not Journalism, because journalists are supposed to have a modicum of responsibility. No one doubts that what he alleges is 100% accurate, in a world where people still doubt the moon landings, this guy gets off scott free.

Mate, you can use your brain, what tangible effects do you think will come from this. Please do not make condesceding remarks about the nature of blowback, I just want to to justify what good, other than an ideological fuzzy feeling, will come out of the whole mess, considering the risks that have been taken and the cost incurred.

5.What do you mean national security and diplomacy won't matter? That nations won't exist? that the US wont exist? That we shall all suddenly get along. I'm not being sarcastic mate, I genuinely don't know what you mean by that, what reports claimed that?

 

[the clockmaker]

1. Pysch reports shown that veterans being traumatized by incessant warfare. They report entails that the (US) soldiers couldn't deal with death so they trick themselves into thinking its a video game. It's almost the same as Vietnam and how it traumatized soldiers there. This is leading to problems such as military base shootings (fort hood), killing contests, etc.

2. why yes. The Soldier gave him the documents. Jullian doesn't go around SEARCHING for documents as he waits around until a government official gives him the documents. If he searched for them that would be illegal.

3. Well i wasn't so sure what you meant by that. Sure you need to get your hands dirty for things to get done. Military wise however, it won't affect much as diplomacy was already out of the window for years. The military plans were not leaked and that is what matters.

4. If those files were fake, why would everyone try to hide them? and why would a soldier give him the fake documents in such quantity? The fact he is in a manhunt only validates them. They could have said "those files were fake!" but they didn't. They just called a man hunt and refuse to question the validity of documents. If the government doesn't question the validity of the documents, why should the people?

5. From what i seen in Wikileaks, everyone is gearing for world war 3. North korea selling "weapons of mass destruction" to al queda, kidnapping foreign nationals. If that new nuke plant is indeed supplying to al queda, then the Iranian nuke plant may also be an Al queda supplier. This lights a fire under America's ass. I highly doubt they are getting all these weapons to "talk". There is a shed of good news however as the Chinese are fed up with North Korea and favor South Korea. With any luck kim jon il and his regime will be history judging from these reports. I highly doubt North Korea would survive long when China back stabs them. It's summarized on this very thread from another poster. I can't link to wikileaks as that site has been down for a couple days.

1. Well if that is all you meant, then I partially agree with you, yes there are individual cases of soldiers being messed up and comiting atrocities. I hate to sound calous, but that sort of thing is bound to happen, just like mutilation of Japanese war dead or the isolated shooting of Germans by both the reds and the western allies after the discovery of camps. That does not justify the use of the phrase 'literally full of psychopaths', but I can at least see where you're coming from now. I still would like to see how many soldiers, American or otherwise are known to you personally. Just out of curiosity.

2. Still very shaky ground and even if the prosecution is mentally disabled and can't get a conviction on an espionage charge, there's always reciept of stolen goods, accessory after the fact, he has commited crimes and I don't need to remind you that Al Capone was brought down on tax evasion.

3. War is a continuation of Politics by other means. It is what occurs when diplomacy breaks down. If, because they now openly percieve the western med nations as a threat, Iran launches 'defensive operations', the lives of soldiers and the security of nations will have been detrimentally affected by these leaks. In intelligence work, there are three teirs, tactical (The nature of the immediate battle space and the Hostile/Civilian elements within), Operational (The required men and materiel for a given oplan, as well as potential opposition and any other relevent information, eg Operation Iraqi Freedom) and strategic, ( the capabilities and intentions of other nations.) This leak is a breach of the intenitons clause of the Strategic levil of intel, thus endangering not only currant (by way of international cooperation, ie souring relations with friendly muslim nations) but also future operations. Think of it in terms of not knowing what cards your opponent is holding, but knowing exactly how much he is willing to bet, and when he'll fold.

4. Fair point, fair point. I was not claiming that the documents were false, only that we cannot be 100% sure of their veracity. I mean, however many thousand documents, how hard would it be for Assange or his source to alter one for their benifit.

5.You cannot think of the impending NBC strike on the west by hostile state or non state actors as a Warsaw Pact v. Nato style world war three. Neither Iran nor the DPRK has anywhere near enough devices to ensure MAD, so in a worst case scenario, they touch one off in Canberra, or Marseille, or New York and then get truned into molten glass in retaliation. National security would still be an important concern, as would diplomacy. Such an act would be more along the lines of a much worse version of the september 11th attacks than a 'threads' style human exctinction event. I do however, agree with you on the looming DPRK conflict. China is a buisness and if they no longer had the west for customers, their economy would implode within a month, their food would run out within a year and their cities would go dark within six months. We are much better friends to them then their 'ally' is.

But still all of this debatable, I concede that. What I will not concede is that the nonextant benifit of leaking this offsets the risks I have outlined. We stand to lose so much, so that Mr. Assange can hug himself and think himself a hero of the people and truth. We gain nothing.

I would also like to compliment you on the mostly polite manner in which you are conducting this debate, in spite of the very contrary nature of our oppinions.

 

[smithy_2045]

If Assange ends up in a US jail or similar, it will be a sad day for democracy and freedom of speech.
Say something the US government doesn't like? You're going to jail because you're a terrorist.

 

[the clockmaker]

Thank you.


1. Only one soldier, and he was an Ex spec ops i believe but haven't seen him in a year. There are two other military bases but those are dead. I never seen anyone walk in, or out of those bases. They both look abandoned with heavy military hardware practically left on the front lawn for anyone to pick the lock and grab.

2. Sarah palin seems to have run her mouth and compromised the case in the US and will be tried in england. England will most likely get him off easy as he practically gave everyone the dirt they need to get the upper hand on the US. The US is in no position to demand anything from any nation for a long while. Not only that but threats of releasing more intel upon his death and the continued existence of wikileaks even after conviction practically makes him untouchable.

3. Iran refused to deal with the US and the world stage before. This information means nothing as they act the same. You can't make Iran worse as Iran already pissed off so many countries and is facing the same fate as North Korea. Sure the US is exposed but it wont be that way forever. Intel is time dependent and will be outdated (excluding the shady, corrupt deals). The defense will have to depend on the US nuke stockpile. No nation will make a movie with nukes still on the table. Sure nukes will become outdated since we have developed a better anti-missile tech that doesn't rely on smaller missiles and instead using lasers. By the time nukes are completely obsolete the intel would be long forgotten and useless to almost everyone but archivists and historians. When it comes to operations out of the US's reach, military operations and plans were not compromised to the point of failure but diplomacy is out of the question. However the progress on the world stage isn't the biggest issue, its the internals of America is that the word of the day. Why bother playing grab ass with other countries while you AND them are falling apart at the seams? The US was failing at military operations well before wikileaks was even thought of. If things were going well we wouldn't be running low on troops and the war would be going well. You can't take a turd and make it much worse.

4. You have a point but it would be easy for the government to debunk any fallacy he tried to cook up.

5. Sure Iran may not have enough for a full world domination but it would be enough to utter destroy and irradiate a strategic location. Imagine a terrorist walking into an important military, economic, or political hub then detonating a nuke. If it was a naval or military base we would be even more crippled than we are now. We barely have enough troops to defend ourselves as it is. If its an economic target that would kill any hope for an economic recovery. If its political we can say bye bye to order as America falls apart. The nuke could irradiate the area and would be abandoned much like Chernobyl not counting the dead, injured, skyrocketing cancer rates, and the mutated children that will result.

1.Coolio, maybe talk to some more, get a good picture of thei mindset, it helps, trust me.

2. Actually, as the leaks portrayed teh UK as having a parinoid delusion that the US would abandon them, so they've got the worst of the whole thing, coming across as weak and ineffectual. Besides Palin has no control of the US judical system, and cases like this aren't simply gonna be dropped because of something she said. The safest, most profitable thing for the US to do is to let him be picked up by a freindly state, negotiate for extradition and give him a fair trail. No one is untouchable. (Except for me of course, you oughta see the photos I have of Ban-ki-moon)

3. Not only Iran mate, besides now they have to act publicly or seem weak, they cannot afford this. Pakistan, the DPRK, China. Im not claiming that this will start a war, only that it pushes one that little bit closer, like a U2 being shot down on russian soil. Also, how can Pakistan maintain their popular support unless they reject the idea that they would ever allow the SASR on their soil. And if they say that they will never allow our troops on theri soil, how can we regard them as an ally? The elephant in the room has been pointed out, and now we are going to have to deal with it. This is not a good thing.

The area of concern is over teh next defence white paper period, the next five to ten years, and that is the perfect time frame for the damage caused by these leaks to come out. Some of these can easily be turned into a cassus belli by your average nutbag extreamist.

4.But who would believe them? If they say, 'document 119 is a fabrication' then everyone will say 'so ha, every other one is accurate'. If they say, 'every document is false' then no one will believe them, they are stuck.

5. See Iran may be batshit insane, but they are USSR batshit insane, not NAzi germany insane.They want to destroy us and come out the other side intact. So they will not conduct a first strike against anyone other than Israel. An attack by a non state actor, especially a mass casualty NBC event, could economically cripple the world, resulting in another depression. However, an attack against a politically or militarily important target, would result in a closing ranks, a seige mentality if you will. What we would see then is a hyper agressive foriegn policy, up to and including strategic interdictions of the instigators country of origen. A hit on a militarily important target could signal a balance of power shift, but nothing so dramatic as a 'red dawn scenario' as the US wouldmaintain its second strike capacity, with a probable increase in the willingness to use them. What we may see is a return to the 1930s idea of an isolationist US, leaving the primary power as China, who lacks any signifigant force projection assests.

This would put two into the head of both the unipolar moment and the bipolar moments. We would see a return the era of great, rather than super or hyper powers. Interactions would be mostly on the local level however as the specter of the angry, isolantionist and nuclear US looms.

Although I may be biased as Im trying to write a novel based on this concept.

3.

 

[iblis666]

I live in the US and i know that the government has been getting more corrupt as time passes and at some point soon it will probably fall apart all together. The reasons for this are many but one of the main ones is that the politicians now days are working against the people for their own self interest. As such id say we need our government to become more transparent and so i can only hope wikileaks releases everything they have.

 

[Thebiggestpanda]

I personally think he deserves to be shot for this. Things are usually secret for a reason. When it comes to state secrets, we keep things confidential to protect people. Having something leaked could lead to someone getting killed. Not to mention that this will damage national relations. This guy is an asshole who only wants to stir the pot and the idiots who supplied him the info should be put to death for treason.

On a related note, the creator of the sight is on the run and being charged with committing a sex crime. I hope they sic the dogs on him.

 

[ZephrC]

The US government is supposed to be run "By the people". How can the people effectively run our government if we have no idea what it's doing?

Sure, Wikileaks just spamming every document they can get their hands on causes some unintentional harm on occasion, but with the news media incapable of providing news at this point, somebody has to inform us somehow.

This idea that the government is totally acting in our best interest and we should totally just trust them runs counter to everything that makes democracy work. I don't actually like Wikileaks much, but with everything else being so broken and dysfunctional it's become a necessary evil.

 

[Thebiggestpanda]

There is no amount of fucking government transparency or 'shedding light' that can justify the damage Assange has caused. One of the things I know for a fact is that many government documents are not classified because of the content, but for protection of the source. Innocent people will die over the information he has shed. People who could have informed for the State's war effort now will be too afraid to come forward. Taliban does have access to the Internet, and with that access they can read these documents. Even if the source's names and identities are changed it'd be as simple for Taliban to think to themselves "Hm, who's house did we hold this meeting in when we discussed this? Oh right, that guy!"
But of course none of you idiots cares about that do you? No it?s all about how ?incompetent? and ?corrupt? the government is.

The fucking worst part about it is that this asshat in charge actively censors and lies about what's posted to suit his own political goals. This man is going to get people killed for a goal that he himself has rendered meaningless by going contrary to what his mission statement was.

This bullshit is a fucking tragedy from any standpoint. I wish that someone would build a case against Assange for reckless endangerment or some other crime that would get him put away for life.

I really couldn't have said it batter myself. He has been charged with committing a sex crime and is currently on the run if that makes you feel any better. This asshole deserves to be shot.

 

[Death God]

I must be living under a rock then, because I have never heard for it before. As to what I think of it, if secrets weren't being hidden from us, there would be no need for leaked information to begin with. Simple as that.

 

[Clik]

It's damn funny. It's good that the documents are up in the public eye once they're out, better than no-one knowing what went where.