Considering that in Naruto the hero was a loud mouthed idiot and in Avatar the "bad boy" turned out to be a good guy in the end who dropped most of his stereotypical bad boy attributes I'm not sure how this proves anything. You can't really judge what people look for a person in real life based on what they like in fictional characters. If you could I'd be steering clear of anyone who likes Tsunderes or psychopathic characters. In fact fiction has a very fantasy aspect to it, where you enjoy things you'd never enjoy in the real world. I enjoy war games but in a real life warzone I'd break down in two seconds.inu-kun said:
Poll: Women like jerks?
- Thread starter Erttheking
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The one thing a man cannot be, if he wants to get a girl interested, is boring. If a man is boring, women don't care about him. That's why women love men who have confidence so much. They're go getters, they're active, with dreams and actually taking the steps to achieve those dreams. Unfortunately, it's a very blurry line between assholes and confidence, so it looks like women only date jerks, but really the qualities they're most looking for just happen to be shared by jerks.
Randomly chides a forum full of people for their presumed opinions.Callate said:
Supplies anecdotal, personal, emotionally charged evidence for why their presumed opinions are "wrong".
Submits a spiel about people assuming that they are "inherently correct in their assumptions", whilst making assumptions himself.
Sneers at the suggestion that making blanket accusations about women could be construed as misogynist, ends post with a diatribe about misandry.
I think that about sums it up.
Mate, I'm sorry for what the women in your family have been through and how that has shaped your view of relationships, but you appear to have a chip on your shoulder the size of Texas.
If I'm going to make a generalization, my theory would be more along the lines that women may have a tendency to date people who might not be that honest or respectful. I think women can easily fall into the trap of forming these absurd romantic fantasies that they expect men to fulfill, and that certain men will use this fantasy to manipulate women, with a certain degree of success. I think when men act extremely out of place with this fantasy is a huge turn-off, which might be why guys who don't act like the guys in romantic movies, E.G. those just trying to be themselves and not being manipulative, end up not being romantically interesting.
Women might also enjoy "the chase", and will want a guy who will peruse them; Naturally, this could attract the worst kind of rapey dudes, since this alienates guys who would respect a women's space or choices, so there's some natural cohesion there. Socially, we're still in the fucked-up place where it's expected for a man to ask out a women, and never the other way around, also giving and edge to the rapey, abusive people. Not saying that all confident guys are rapists, only that rapists tend to be overly-confident, or at least would generally be more up for the chase than other guys. I think this hunter/prey dynamic that's so deeply ingrained in society might be the biggest part of it.
I also think that women have a tendency to compartmentalize people. If a woman puts a man in a role in her head, it's very hard to escape that role. I don't think it's limited to 'friend' or 'romantic interest', but also other things i imagine like 'that guy whose good at schoolwork who i can ask for help' or 'that creepy guy' or something. I do think that overall men are more lenient with people moving through these rolls, and taking on multiple roles, and women like to keep people in their original role with little chance for redemption, mobility, or overlap.
EDIT:
Oh, yes, as others have mentioned, it would not surprise me if the whole "i can change him" fantasy played a part.
Women might also enjoy "the chase", and will want a guy who will peruse them; Naturally, this could attract the worst kind of rapey dudes, since this alienates guys who would respect a women's space or choices, so there's some natural cohesion there. Socially, we're still in the fucked-up place where it's expected for a man to ask out a women, and never the other way around, also giving and edge to the rapey, abusive people. Not saying that all confident guys are rapists, only that rapists tend to be overly-confident, or at least would generally be more up for the chase than other guys. I think this hunter/prey dynamic that's so deeply ingrained in society might be the biggest part of it.
I also think that women have a tendency to compartmentalize people. If a woman puts a man in a role in her head, it's very hard to escape that role. I don't think it's limited to 'friend' or 'romantic interest', but also other things i imagine like 'that guy whose good at schoolwork who i can ask for help' or 'that creepy guy' or something. I do think that overall men are more lenient with people moving through these rolls, and taking on multiple roles, and women like to keep people in their original role with little chance for redemption, mobility, or overlap.
EDIT:
Oh, yes, as others have mentioned, it would not surprise me if the whole "i can change him" fantasy played a part.
To be fair, submitting Anime characters as evidence of what women want in relationships was so spectacular that king's post was about the gentlest response possible.Redryhno said:
Stereotypes wouldn't be stereotypes if there wasn't atleast some truth to them. Ofcourse it would be ridiculous to generalize that all women like jerks. But some definitely do. Now not that these women are necessarily into 'jerks' but rather that they are willing to put up with a lot of shit just b/c they find the jerk particularly attractive or popular or have the naive belief her 'love' will somehow change him. For most women it's just a phase though like boybands and horses. I mean, it gets particularly pathetic after 30.
I'll add most guys aren't really that much better though. Most of us secretly(or not so secretly) desire the prettiest girl. When guys are frustrated and say 'all women like jerks' they aren't hinting at the 300 pound whale that wouldn't reject them.
I'll add most guys aren't really that much better though. Most of us secretly(or not so secretly) desire the prettiest girl. When guys are frustrated and say 'all women like jerks' they aren't hinting at the 300 pound whale that wouldn't reject them.
To be fair, whenever this topic comes up, there are a LOT of people who jump right to the "only virgin loosers would make this argument" ad hominem argument. That argument is bullshit, fallacious, and not fair, 100%. That's like saying "oh, you want bullying in schools to stop, you must be one of the loosers who got bullied, and thus somehow your argument and points are invalid". It's just degenerate shaming tactics, and it would be nice if we could be above that.BloatedGuppy said:
And to be equally fair, the majority of the kids that REALLY like said characters aren't really that hard to guess also liking jerks as romantic partners. It's sorta a dual age/affluence thing more than anything else and I wouldn't say it's that bad of a starting point honestly.BloatedGuppy said:
And this is also like the fourth time I've seen Er put this thread up in the last two years, sorta getting sick of it is all.
Well, not that many, reviewing the thread. A few remarks are rather pointed, but nothing like what you've paraphrased here.9tailedflame said:
Secondly, just making generalized insults isn't "ad hom". Ad hominem means undermining someone's position by attacking them, usually in an attempt to destroy their credibility. "You can't listen to 9tailedflame's views on health care, he's a lunatic" would be an ad hominem attack. Simply saying something like "Everyone who listens to Nickelback is a cretin" isn't an ad hominem, it's just being mean.
Thirdly, making generalizations about any population, particularly ~50% of the global population, is a pretty lame thing to do, and it's a position that merits a certain amount of censure. How hostile the tone taken up will likely depend on how sick the individual in question is of hearing the generalization in question. If we're going to be forgiving of Callate sounding off out of frustration, which you clearly are, it would be appropriate to extend the same consideration to the "degenerate shaming" you're clearly irate about.
Well give him credit, he obviously knows his audience. =\Redryhno said:
Perspective perspective perspective!
If you are interested in a Woman then automatically any other guy interested in her is a jerk. There is very little chance you're going to see any positive qualities in these fellows and instead you will focus entirely on their negatives. Fairly standard human behaviour.
If you are interested in a Woman then automatically any other guy interested in her is a jerk. There is very little chance you're going to see any positive qualities in these fellows and instead you will focus entirely on their negatives. Fairly standard human behaviour.
I keep typing up responses to people thinking "i'll just make this brief" only to have it go for several paragraphs and still feeling like there is more to be said.
Fuck it, I ain't poking this bear. Bloatedguppy is here and I'm usually in sync with what he's saying but he makes it far more entertaining to read then I ever could, I'll just be boringly redundant.
I'll just say this... it's far easier to make sound judgement calls as an uninvested third party with hindsight, much less so when it's personal and your neck deep in it. Pesky things like human nature, emotions, peer pressure and hormones (we all have em') tend really muddle things up as well.
Also, to fully flay this dead horse, mayhaps the "jerk" is a psychological projection of your own insecurities.
Note: "you" in general sense, not anyone here specifically.
captcha: outlook good
I don't know captcha:
Fuck it, I ain't poking this bear. Bloatedguppy is here and I'm usually in sync with what he's saying but he makes it far more entertaining to read then I ever could, I'll just be boringly redundant.
I'll just say this... it's far easier to make sound judgement calls as an uninvested third party with hindsight, much less so when it's personal and your neck deep in it. Pesky things like human nature, emotions, peer pressure and hormones (we all have em') tend really muddle things up as well.
Also, to fully flay this dead horse, mayhaps the "jerk" is a psychological projection of your own insecurities.
Note: "you" in general sense, not anyone here specifically.
captcha: outlook good
I don't know captcha:
Have to say this is my favorite reply, since it strikes me as honest and not just a talking point.ThatOtherGirl said:
The thing about "nice guys" is they're always trying to be nice, primarily to the woman they're trying to impress. It's just hard to respect a try-hard like that, I guess. It's one of those cruel universal ironies: caring too much about someone liking you is not going to help make it happen.
Not going to vote in the poll, as it doesn't have any nuanced options.
Well yes and no. Women aren't a collective mass they are all individuals. I'd say normally they don't like men who go out of their way to be unpleasant, some do though.
A lot of the time these men who are accused of being jerks are just more masculine men, and the less confident and masculine men dislike them and accuse them of being jerks, because their confidence allows them to chat up girls more easily. So they label them jerks and shift the blame rather than attempting to be confident themselves.
A lot of the time these men who are accused of being jerks are just more masculine men, and the less confident and masculine men dislike them and accuse them of being jerks, because their confidence allows them to chat up girls more easily. So they label them jerks and shift the blame rather than attempting to be confident themselves.
Well I think the real thing about that kind of "nice" is that it's courtship behavior, not some kind of inherent kindness. And it's often very evident and transparent courtship behavior, particularly if the person in question gets courted a lot. It doesn't necessarily speak to someone's personality, or how "nice" they are or aren't. Gushing compliments at someone you're trying to get romantic attention from isn't a sign of quality character or anything.StatusNil said:
I know when I was in my own "nice guy" phase and wondering why my overtures weren't automatically turning women weak at the knees, I was like my own hype man. "Look how nice I am, look at all these wonderful things I'm willing to do". Yeah, because you're courting them, jackass.
These forums never really change. Can't wait till this thread goes on for however many pages.
Yeah, it's bullshit to generalize based on gender. Most people realize this, I'd hope.
Yeah, it's bullshit to generalize based on gender. Most people realize this, I'd hope.
I find the poll results to be quite heartening.
It sort of makes sense, because it's an amazing "sour grapes" sort of argument. If women only like jerks, then a "nice guy" like "me" never stood a chance.
I think one of the big problems is that as a general rule, this sort of thing rarely comes up in a way that's intended to be productive. I'll leave ert out here, as he's actually attempting to test a claim (or kibosh it, though that's unlikely to happen), but usually, it comes up more in an attempt to commiserate or complain.
One that you will see repeated by numerous folks both online and off.Wintermute said:
It sort of makes sense, because it's an amazing "sour grapes" sort of argument. If women only like jerks, then a "nice guy" like "me" never stood a chance.
Which can be an especially bad problem if they themselves are jerks.mecegirl said:
Numerous people, male and female, have attested to the contrary on this site before.Johnny Novgorod said:
Nonsense! The hive-mind is stronger than ever. I--I've said too much!Evil Moo said:
I think one of the big problems is that as a general rule, this sort of thing rarely comes up in a way that's intended to be productive. I'll leave ert out here, as he's actually attempting to test a claim (or kibosh it, though that's unlikely to happen), but usually, it comes up more in an attempt to commiserate or complain.
Or they're not really nice in the first place. People rarely identify ourselves as the "jerk," even if they are one.Pluvia said: