Poll: Would open-world RPGs benefit or be hurt by persistent destructible environments?

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Brawndo

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It seems like the one genre that has yet to widely embrace destructible environments is the RPG. In 2011, there is no technical reason why an open-world RPG like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Two Worlds, or Fable cannot have destructible environments. The Frostbite engine from the Battlefield series debuted in 2008, Far Cry 2 had an extremely realistic way of modeling fire and how it spread and that game is over three years old, and Red Faction featured the ability to deform and dig through terrain all the way back in 2001.

So from a technological standpoint, it can be done. Obviously some game engines would have to be reworked; for example, in Skyrim, towns and buildings are in a separate "cell" from the outside world and this would have to be changed. However, I'm sure it could be done if a developer really wanted to do it.

The real question is: should it be?

My initial reaction to this was an emphatic YES. Taking everyone's favorite game of the moment as an example, imagine how much power you would feel if you could burn down an entire village with the Dragon Fire shout, or level trees and collapse caves with a powerful Fus Do Rah? It would completely change how the game reacts to the player. For example, if you burned down Riverwood, the Jarl of Whiterun would have it out for you for the rest of the game and regularly send mercenaries and soldiers to try to kill you. The tactical options would be greatly increased too - if you're too weak to fight those bandits holed up in a house, sneak up to it and use magic to set the house on fire. It would also really give the player a sense of progression, because his or her early magic would be laughably weak, but by the endgame it could topple entire buildings.

However, my initial enthusiasm for this kind of homicidal destruction is tempered when I stop to think of the potential consequences of an RPG with destructible environments. First of all, what about buildings or other locations that are important to a later quest? For example, let's say I burn down a random farmhouse at whim or an enemy does it during combat. Then later I discover I can't complete a sidequest because I had to meet some NPC in that farmhouse. Should that building be invincible then? Should the game rebuild it without my input? Or, what if I'm fighting a dragon in a town and the dragon or an errant spell destroys the local inn... am I permanently out of a town service? Also, I fear what a well-traveled world look like near the end of a hundred hours of questing. Anyone who played Bad Company 2 multiplayer knows that maps get completely leveled until they are only piles of debris.

So what do you think: do destructible environments have a place in RPGs?
 

Arcanz

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Large RPG games already have hundreds of factors on the story and enviroment. It would be too much, it could work, but would be shitloads of work to get it to actually fit with story and NPC responses and so on.

I think it won't be implemented any time soon, because of the "oh shit I ruined this building and ruined the entire quest for my +15 dagger of socks" and having to reload and be careful of everything you do.

But you've argued for both sides, and taken pretty much all of the good points already :p
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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With the memory issue of Skyrim at the moment, adding more persistent variables to take up RAM seems unwise.
 

boag

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believer258 said:
It appears as if RPG's, period, are behind the times when it comes to technology. No, not JRPG's, those usually have pretty adept tech. But let's take a peek at Western ones, shall we?
Aside from very unique Art Choices, exactly what kind of adept tech are JRpgs using?
 

Flac00

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Yes, just the game rebuilds everything over time (and does so really fast to allow for quests to be fulfilled). Though even though it would be awesome to level buildings, just having destructibility would allow for you to be more free in your actions. Fence in your way? Ax it! Not anymore.
 

DRes82

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believer258 said:
You're taking on some pretty sacred relics in that post. I'd be careful =P

I think destructible environments in RPGs would definitely add to the immersion. Are they practical at the moment? Maybe not now, but in the future definitely. In a game like Skyrim, I'm not even sure how you would implement something like that. Swords can't really break down stone walls. Maybe explosive spells...hmm..food for thought, i suppose.

boag said:
believer258 said:
It appears as if RPG's, period, are behind the times when it comes to technology. No, not JRPG's, those usually have pretty adept tech. But let's take a peek at Western ones, shall we?
Aside from very unique Art Choices, exactly what kind of adept tech are JRpgs using?
I'll answer that for you. CGI cinematics...lol. Absolutely nothing innovative in JRPGS other than the pretty cinematics. Take away the sketchy storylines and you have the same turnbased combat grindasaurus that is all Final Fantasy and its knock offs.
 

ShadowKatt

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I'm not going to argue the technical aspects. With a prime machine, anything is possible. The question is SHOULD they be. And for that, you need to clarify, single player or multiplayer?

Single player games? Oh hell yes. Your actions should have consequences, and if you do the equivilent of nuking a city, that city SHOULD BE GONE. You exist in this world, you affect it. However, if you can't then obviously your influence isn't much more than the common field mouse, is it?

Multiplayer, however, no. And for that I say look no further than Minecraft. Minecraft HAS a fully destructible enviroment where everything you do creates a lasting impression. And a quick youtube search for "griefing" will show you all the reasons why it's a BAD idea. Because some people don't want to play the game, they just want to ruin it for everyone else. To quote, "Some people just want to see the world burn." And that can't be allowed or else no one will play the game.
 

NvrPhazed

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As much as persistent destructible environments in an open world RPG would be awesome to see implemented, the amount of memory usage and processing would make it nigh impossible to use on console gaming which would alienate a lot of the gamer market (PC master race: the world does not revolve around you). Speaking as a student developer, making destructible terrain is a real hassle to implement well and doing it over a "Skyrim size" RPG would be suicide business speaking. Maybe in 5 years or so the tech will be there and the new generation consoles will b good enough. (I mean seriously 512 megs of ram what is this 2003 they should of put a gig in at least).
 

Bad Jim

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Arcanz said:
I think it won't be implemented any time soon, because of the "oh shit I ruined this building and ruined the entire quest for my +15 dagger of socks" and having to reload and be careful of everything you do.
In real life, if some random asshole destroys a building it will probably get rebuilt at some point. So you could just have destroyed buildings getting rebuilt if you skip town for a while, assuming there is still an occupant who might call the builders in.
 

skywolfblue

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The consoles of this generation aren't going to be able to handle it.

But if the needed technical power was there? Yes.

It'd be neat to have stuff impact the environment. It'd introduce a whole lot of annoying things the developer would have to account for, but it would be awesome.
 

NerfedFalcon

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Well, you'd never be able to make a PS3 port. LOL I MADE A JAB AT SKYRIM AM I COOL YET

Seriously, though, the thing about all the memory it'd need for persistent destruction? That would make it a challenge for anything to run. Even Crytek's hypothetical, Crysis-on-Ultra-with-no-slowdown-running computer.
 

Phlakes

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Arcanz said:
"oh shit I ruined this building and ruined the entire quest for my +15 dagger of socks"
Congratulations, you just chose my next title.

OT: I remember Nintendo wanted to do something like this when they were making an N64 Zelda with that CD peripheral or whatever it was, but the entire system got scrapped. They said that if you cut down a tree and left to do a dungeon, that tree would still be cut when you came back.

Anyway, the thing about ti is it takes so much stuff to handle that. Part of the lag problem in Skyrim is that it's juggling ludicrous amounts of variables all the time, and having every bit of the environment changeable somehow would be torture on the engine and on your computer.

But even if it did work, it's already annoying to kill a quest giver, so burning an entire town down would be problematic.

And, you would have to program how characters would react. If the lumber mill gets blown up, they'd have to dynamically adapt.

TL;DR: Too many variables, would kill your computer and would be too hard to integrate into a world.
 

godofallu

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I wanted to vote no they don't belong in RPG games, and no they don't belong in FPS games either.
 

CrystalShadow

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DRes82 said:
believer258 said:
You're taking on some pretty sacred relics in that post. I'd be careful =P

I think destructible environments in RPGs would definitely add to the immersion. Are they practical at the moment? Maybe not now, but in the future definitely. In a game like Skyrim, I'm not even sure how you would implement something like that. Swords can't really break down stone walls. Maybe explosive spells...hmm..food for thought, i suppose.
No... But fire magic + wooden buildings = very big fire.

For that matter, careless use of fire in a forest could have... interesting consequences...
 

valleyshrew

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You underestimate technical issues. A skyrim save file would be hundreds of megabytes, if not gigabytes, if you could deform the environment permanently... It would add nothing good to the gameplay either. People who want to blow the world to rubble aren't the people who should be playing skyrim. Just cause 2 is about the only game I can think of where this could be acceptable, it would be too big a technical challenge though. It's easy on a temporary and small scale, not so much on a big scale.