Poll: Would we all be cool with a female Link?

[CMDDarkblade]

If I'm not mistaken didn't someone post a poll on this exact same topic last year. I mean I feel this is a clone of that thread with the exact same wording and everything.

 

[Savagezion]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated.

You do realize that it wasn't up until now that Nintendo even so much as gave a shit about the Zelda timelines right? They even said years ago that they never really cared about which game took place first. However so many people bitched and cried about it to them that they finally slapped something together so people would leave them alone about it.

Yeah, clear back on page 5-6 of this thread I stated I think the Timeline is bullshit thrown together to shut fans up. It is pretty obvious. However, at least I could concede that it was official so my personal take on it was invalid. I find it funny that the "pro-femLink" side was using the timeline to defend and support the notion that there is no reason Nintendo can't or shouldn't do it. Now that someone listed a reason why the timeline actually leans towards "Link can't" suddenly the argument is "Well, the timeline is shit anyways". Seriously, go back and read those pages.

This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

But branching off is still branching off. When something deviates from the norm that means something different happened from the thing it originated from. Therefore it doesn't automatically invalidate a female Link at all

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one.

A person reincarnated into another form. That can be anything you can possibly imagine. I can reincarnate into the body of a fox. So what would happen if the Goddess reincarnated as a bird? There will obviously still be a Zelda. She will just not be the triforce of wisdom.

That goes back to a previous argument I made about doing that now makes the characters even more generic than they already are. I couldn't give a shit about the timeline personally as I said before I see it as an excuse rather than lore. If you do this, now there are no more iconic characters in the series. Final Fantasy suffers because of this IMO. Right now Zelda and Links are iconic and that is what is so great about the series to me. Changing them and making them be able to be a bird or a fox makes them generic idle avatars that have a lesser value on what the image attached to the title looks like. When you say Zelda I picture the Zelda in SSBB and her early version on the first game and OoT. Just as I do with Link.

Let me point out that Zelda has always had a similar look as has Link. Link and Zelda both never leave teenager related looks. They each have a unique style. Zelda's style is always suitable to to attend a ball. Link is always suitable for... pretending your in a fairy tale as a young boy in the woods? Probably because that is the story Nintendo (Miyamoto specifically) wanted to tell. His fairy tale of a young boy became a household name and then a legend across most cultures in the globe. Now, because its popular, he must turn him into a girl because why exactly? Now, that is a reason why change for the sake of change is bad. What does this accomplish?

No mission statement that I've caught has said "why they should" but most want to argue over "why they couldn't" except for this one:

The argument you are failing to notice is "Why?" What is gained by doing this? Variety? Hardly. A new perspective? Yeah right, it will still be silent protagonist saves Hyrule and the inept ruling family. Nothing is gained here. Ah, I know, it will break ground in the female protagonist movement. Oh wait, no it won't because it's LoZ one of if not the most famous and top selling franchises of all time. SO the argument remains "Why?" What does it serve?

In and of itself? Not much is gained. Ultimately it boils down to how it affects other aspects of the story being told. Hence why I suggested making a Link/Linika/Lyn/Lina from the Gerudo tribe because that has the potential to change the games' formula in interesting ways both in gameplay and lore[footnote]Part of me even wants to suggest that she might have a companion who's a dead ringer for the classic hero of time as a bit of a bait and switch[/footnote]. Conversely, there could also be a tale where Link is Zelda's bodyguard, confidant and body double in the event that the princess is indisposed or at risk. Again, in and of itself a gender switch is insignificant, but it does open up a few interesting possibilities in the stories that can be told.

Sorry, I hadn't replied Asita but I have thought quite a bit about your reply. This response was a valid list of pros gained but all cons are left off the table. It's not so much a reason why they should gender bend Link but just some positive possibilities. None of which couldn't be used in a similar way to empower Zelda and successfully spin off. However, you have to spin Zelda off so well that little boys will want to play it. Hell, little boy culture is changing thanks to Pokemon and its clonage ironically enough. Link has been who he is for decades he grew up with me. Eventually he stopped aging and I was old enough to have responsibilities that made it hard to keep saving Hyrule with him. He is like an old best friend. Please don't cut off my friends genitals. There is nothing wrong with being a woman but he isn't one. The guy is so manly he can dress like a faery literally and make it look so bad ass. I was promised this wouldn't happen if Anita made that damned video. "The femenist agenda isn't trying to take your video games away"

Check this out: Link is the first of his kind. The Karaoke Village is a village of prophecy legend that works as a sort of "garden of heroes" or vessels for courage. It is usually dormant for generations. Link has always been picked because of his bond with Zelda. However, now introduce a new bad guy and make Chloe crucial for victory. At the start of the game you pick if you want to be male or female. I would be cool with something like that.
Those of us who want link's masculinity (and he does have some) to stay in tact don't have to watch you castrate a character to appease the mass estrogen flaming at the industry right now. I respect that a dad modded Zelda for his little girl. That's what mods do for gaming, Nintendo shouldn't have to bow to what some modder did if they don't want to. Nintendo doesn't even claim to support mods sadly. (I would love to see them innovate a way to mod console games. the Wii-U even has a great controller for some software that sold for like $200 that allowed you to mod all Nintendo approved games - but good luck getting them to approve modding their tent poles. But they don't have to no matter how awesome it would be if they would.} That's why owning a popular IP is great. It's the only perk. You can tell the masses "thanks for the input, but no thanks".

If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda.

If Zelda wasn't the reincarnation of the Goddess, then that simply means she does not hold the triforce of Wisdom. She doesn't stop being "Zelda". Zelda's entire existence does not and should not hinge on a single aspect that she has.

That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that.

Alternate timelines will affect that because they are alternate timelines. In an alternate timeline it is very possible for the Link, holder of the triforce of courage to be the ruler of Hyrule, and Zelda to not.

Which will automatically put you in the position where we basically have a playable female "link" the only difference is that she is Zelda.
You keep acting like everything is set in stone and nothing can change, but there is far too much wiggle room for that to happen.

This on top of the fact that Nintendo does whatever the hell they want for the Zelda series anyway. The timeline theory only matters to people who spend far too much time looking into this stuff.

That wiggle room is exactly why Link doesn't need to be a girl. I don't see a reason why you must change Link's gender to add depth here. The story isn't deep, pretty much anything'll do. The game isn't being sexist if it doesn't change Link and to do so would be pointless. Since the story can definitely see depth added and has plenty of available sources to draw upon (How awesome would a Total War: Hyrule be where you play as Zelda and you have Generals like Valkeria Chronicles? Yeah, pretty bad ass is right) Gender bending Link by itself isn't some genious or in depth writing tool and it brings nothing to the table. It is shallow with nothing supporting it. Gender bending is every bit as shallow as those saying the writing in the game already is.

 

[Savagezion]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated. All alternate timelines branch off of that one. This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one. If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda. That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that. Your soul is your soul. Without souls, no reincarnation. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.

Problem is that you're invoking a premise that is not a given. Each Zelda is a different character with few obvious connections to one another. That Zelda in Skyward Sword is the reincarnation of a goddess does not immediately translate to Zelda in A Link to the Past being a reincarnation of that same goddess unless you can establish that the Zelda of A Link to the Past is the reincarnation of the Zelda in Skyward Sword. The same principle holds true for Link. While this is often implied to some extent, Twilight Princess throws a monkey wrench into the idea by having the Hero of Time's spirit persist in the world through the events of the game (That spirit who teaches you new moves? Strongly implied to be Ocarina of Time Link in game, flat out stated to be so in Hyrule Historia) thereby making a clear break in any hypothetical reincarnation chain, establishing that the reincarnation relation between installments is not a hard and fast rule that must be adhered to.

Well, not necessarily if you consider Avatar: The Last Airbender's take on it. Communicating to a past self is actually a strong aspect of reincarnation in Buddhism kind of. An enlightened man/woman will know all of their previous lives - thus know themselves and draw upon the wisdom of a past life. That is not to say that the monkey wrench is now solved but it didn't break it. The problem is that is more of something the Triforce of Wisdom would probably be able to do for you.

That said, the rest all starts breaking back into why they "couldn't" not why they "should".

 

[garcian67]

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

In now way did I call you ignorant. I have no idea of your knowledge of the lore, as you have never made an argument, citing examples from the lore, that includes the LoZ universe in a substantive way.

You told me I should read up on Zelda lore. Your exact words were:

"Please, I implore you, read some LoZ lore, digest it, make your own arguments from the source material."

So excuse me for misinterpreting that as a statement on my knowledge of the series.

I told you to read up on lore because, to that point, you hadn't written any lore supported factual argument. You chose to take it as an offense, rather than me genuinely trying to share my interest and passion for this subject with another person.

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments

Please respond to the arguments I made in the post where I actually argued, most of what you have quoted as fallacy have been clarifying statements not designed to stand on their own, but act in conjunction with my other post.

What arguments? Your gigantic post was more an analysis on themes you believed you had found in the series than any sort of straightforward argument. For some reason you decided to apply gender stereotypes to these themes so as to explain why Zelda and Link had to be female and male respectively.

It certainly makes it rather easy to refute an argument when you dismiss the entire thing offhand. Gender stereotypes were added as small anecdotes at the very end of my post on LoZ lore, they were added in an attempt to make what is a rather long post somewhat more colloquial in nature, so as to make the point more clear.

If you'll recall I already challenged that point, saying it's borderline sexist to imply that only a woman could embody wisdom and only a man could embody courage.

It is sexist to say only certain genders could embody certain things. That statement, taken alone, is sexist by it's very nature. Which is why I make no such claims in isolation. I attempted to explain, strictly using the source material, why the cyclical nature of this history and the themes contained within make a female link a hard twist for the canon to accommodate.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

In skyward sword, it is stated explicitly that this cycle, the goddess, the hero, and the evil, will continue ad infinitum. Unlike many of my points, this has been directly told to us by Nintendo.

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

No. Hylia only takes on mortal form when she is needed to combat the evil. This is her role in destiny. This, again, is explained, directly in skyward sword. It is told to the audience by Hylia herself.

Anyway, even if this were to be true, I still don't believe it necessitates that Zelda always be female. And even if it DID, that wouldn't necessitate Link being male.

If you refuse to budge on this point, despite any argument to the contrary, we have an impasse and further argument will only lead to frustration on both sides. If this is the case, then let this end. If it is not the case, then state Why you don't see this connection, and I will repeat/rephrase my argument to make the reasons that I believe this to be the case perfectly clear.

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

There is a difference. Link, for example, in most adventures does not appear to possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life. He is a simple boy/man until something spurs him to heroism, and he then becomes the hero. In the case of Zelda things operate differently. The hylian royal family has an intimate connection with the goddess, being that the progenitor of the line was the first reincarnation. Hylia does not use every family member as a vessel, though it is likely she acts as a kind of conscience or advisor as hinted at in A Link to the Past. When she takes direct physical form, it is as princess Zelda. It is always as princess Zelda, but that does not make every Zelda hylia, merely all of the Zeldas we have seen.

But why? you ask, are all of the zeldas Hylia?

In three sentences: Hylia is necessary to defeat the evil which threatens the land. Were she to not appear, the hero would fail and the world would be conquered/destroyed/enslaved and so on. This hasn't happened (with the exception of one branch of OoT) and thus every Zelda we have seen is Hylia.

I fully agree that Link and Ganon possess a spiritual connection to their former incarnations, as evidenced by them having the triforce of courage and power, and I don't believe that Zelda is any different.

This is correct. In Link's case, the connection is that it is the Spirit which holds the triforce of courage, and in Ganon's case that he is literally the physical manifestation of powerful evil.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand?
This connection between femininity and divinity is explicit in the LoZ universe, which is what I was referring to. At no point did I bring in outside cultures. If you would like to refute the point that femininity and divinity are equated in LoZ, please present evidence.

How can I present evidence that something doesn't exist? I can't prove a negative. That's like trying to disprove God, or bigfoot. You're the one asserting a claim, the burden of proof lies on you. Yes it's true that there are lots of female characters in Zelda who are also divine or connected to divinity, but that doesn't mean that femininity itself is devine.

Bolded the part that I will emphasize here. While, logically, you are completely correct, correlation does not equate to causation, in the analysis of a story, it is rather rare to be told such a point explicitly. We must then infer based on the evidence available, as I have.

My reasons for believing a strong connection between femininity and divinity in the LoZ universe in order of decreasing strength are as follows:
1)The world was created by three goddesses and no male gods are universally worshipped
2)Zelda, a female, is the reincarnation of a goddess
3)The fairies and great fairies are all female
4)In OoT 5 of the 7 sages, or 4 of 6 not counting Zelda, are female.
5)In Wind Waker 2 out of 3 sages are female (neglecting Makar because makar is a plant without a gender
6)The Gerudo in OoT are lead in Ganon's absence by two witches who act as soothsayers. They were also Ganon's surrogate mothers and helped him hone his sorcery

There are some counter arguments to this, you can point out the several prominent male spirits in twilight princess, or the minor deities of certain tribes in wind waker and OoT being male, but I believe the feminine argument is stronger.

No, this isn't conclusive proof, because conclusive proof doesn't exist. This does provide a solid base of support, in my opinion, for an argument using this as a launching point.

It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

Again, at no point have I brought in outside cultures. The only rules a story has are the ones it sets for itself, and it is those rules which I am arguing from.

I would appreciate you doing the same.

I'm not trying to bring anything outside the series into it. I only assumed that you were because you kept claiming that femininity and divinity were closely connected, which is true in some pagan religions and cultures, but not in Zelda as far as I can tell.

You began to talk of various cultures on Earth, which is what prompted my comment on outside cultures having no relevance. I hope I have addressed your skepticism regarding my claim between women and the divine.

Anyway, my point is that you can't take these general conceits and treat them like unbending rules laying out what can or can't happen in a Zelda game.

Precisely. I agree absolutely. This is a fantastic point and we should all keep it in mind. As I have said, it is entirely possible Nintendo could announce a fem link tomorrow, which could work if they gave it the canonical support it would need to stand on its own. All I am trying to say is that the current backstory/frontstory for the series has a solid mythos surrounding it which strongly precludes the presence of a female hero.

That isn't to say it is impossible. No one in the series has ever said, talking to the camera, the hero cannot inhabit a female form. It's just that the evidence we have presents a strong case for the hero never inhabiting a female form.

When an archetype becomes worn out from overuse it can sometimes be good to turn it on its head. That's why I think a female Zelda would bring some energy to the series.

I assume you meant a female link here, it's rather easy to type one thing and think another. It would, undoubtedly, bring energy to the series. I worry it might also bring a rather large amount of negative attention, mostly as it could be seen as a P.R. stunt by Nintendo simply trying to drive sales with manufactured controversy, and the community of gamers as a whole seems rather sensitive to gender issues lately.

I admit it could even be a positive change, if used correctly it could add immensely to the series with an entire fresh perspective and reworked mechanics. It could very well be beautiful. That said, Lore wise, it would require either revisions, or some convincing explanation in-game to make such a change fit with the rest of the mythos.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

Sheik is Zelda's power focused into action. I ask you though, why she didn't use this power to prevent Ganon's rise to power? It is because she lacked courage, as explained in link's first talk with Zelda in OoT. Indeed, she has more than enough influence to stop ganon in those early years, as shown by the timeline branch where link succeeds, returns to the past, warns Zelda, and thereby presents Ganon's rise. Zelda didn't do this on her own, because she lacked the courage. She didn't act soon enough and bad things occurred. This, if you are familiar with LoZ lore, is the entire story.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special.

That's just the thing though, Zelda did stop ganon by herself. In OoT, after link returns to the past. He warns Zelda about what will happen if ganon is left unchecked. She uses this knowledge to prevent his rise to power and ganon is executed. She didn't do this on her own, without the hero, because she lacked the courage to take such a brash action (ganon was already influential and well-liked at the court). This is a perfect place to include a discussion of Link's reaction at this point as well:

In OoT, when Link first meets Zelda and they are watching the throne room through a window, upon seeing Ganon kneel before the king, Link gets angry (having recognized him from the vision the Deku tree gave him) and attempts to charge him. He is courageous, but not very bright. Zelda, knowing this would not end well, stops him and explains the political situation and why Link needs to leave him be. I don't know if there is a clearer example of these characters acting as a foil to each other and perfectly embodying the virtues of the triforce shards they will later come to possess.

I'm talking about one's general personality, not the magical forces they have locked away inside their hand. Anyone can have courage, Link has the triforce of Courage but that doesn't mean he's the only person in all of Hyrule to have any courage.

Link is most certainly not the only person in hyrule to have courage. There are countless others. What link has over them, however, is that his courage is his defining trait. Link doesn't think things through, he follows blind passion and does things other would consider foolish. The first hero shows this completely, when he ventures, alone, to the monster infested surface to rescue a friend who most people would write off as dead or not worth saving. It is this blind courage that separates the hero from the other characters.

Courage to him isn't finding the strength to do the right thing, it is doing anything and hoping it was right.

Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character

I wouldn't go that far. What Zelda has shown, through gameplay with the certain boss fights, and in OoT with sheikh, is that when she must act, she will, and she will take a wise action. What she hasn't shown, is the blind courage of the hero. Zelda, as the vessel of a goddess, is blessed with almost prescient wisdom. She mentions seeing ganon destroy the world in her dreams in OoT, yet she still doesn't act until it is too late. This is what separates her and the hero, and why Hylia and the hero need each other.

At the very least she isn't always "timid and weak" like you described.

Of course she isn't always timid (saying she was weak was a comment on her physical nature, not her personality). A character needn't display a trait at all times for it to be an important character trait. As above, when Zelda is forced to action, she acts. When she has the option to wait, however, she bides her time. Even as sheikh, all she was doing was concealing her location from ganon. She didn't awaken the sages or attempt to turn Nabooru into an informant, she waited for the hero.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Link does not appear cowardly in any sequence involving enemies, to my knowledge. Your comment about redheads I assume is directed towards to light flirting that occurs in the series? in which case bashful might be a better word? I am not sure of your meaning here.

That's what I'm trying to do, however it's difficult when you're so vague and longwinded about what your points actually are. Plus you're asking me to provide evidence and examples when the burden of proof really does lay on you to explain why a female Link can't happen.

There is no burden of proof, because we aren't trying to prove anything. It is impossible, with the evidence we have, to say decisively one way or the other what is possible. What I am trying to do is explain that the lore does not currently support a female incarnation and it would require revision should such a change be made.

I have laid out my reasoning. It was in a rather long post, I acknowledge, but the lore itself isn't very straightforward at some points and I wanted to cover my bases. I apologize if it was too hard to follow.

Not to mention the fact that you yourself have rarely provided any sort of specific examples to back up your points. I'm still waiting to see the evidence that every single Zelda is the reincarnation of Hylia.

Unless I have missed places, which is possible, I always mention which game I am referring to when I make a claim. This I have been very careful about. If there is a certain point I made that you would like me to source I would be more than happy to.

I have, in multiple places (including at the very start of this post) explained why every Zelda we have seen is Hylia. I tried to make the logic much clearer in this post. If it is still unclear I will find another way to explain it.

Record for Longest post?

 

[Spearmaster]

Link is a character that has become cannon, you could make a zelda game with a female lead that would be fine, just swap genders and name but keep everything basically the same, Green tunic...the whole bag. Mabey even have link make a cameo as an npc maybe working on the same goals through a separate off-screen arc.

Making "Link" a girl...Kinda like making batman a girl or wonder woman a man...

 

[Dark Knifer]

Zelda would be a very boring playable character wouldn't she? I mean unless her character was completely changed at which point it might as well not be her anymore. Also, it's not really gender swapping if there's no rule saying Link can't or shouldn't be female in the first place.

I don't see how zelda would be more boring then link. Link's a completely blank slate whereas zelda actually says things and does things on her own valition rather then just being railroaded towards it by other characters.

Gameplay wise it's established she can use magic to a much greater extent then link, that in itself could make a game less focused on items but magical ability, which I see great potential in.

I'm a member of said fanbase, and I certainly wouldn't get up in arms. Nor can I see the rest of us. In fact I think it would be met rather positively, if it made a stir at all.

And lastly, I question why you think Nintendo isn't progressive. What exactly is your reasoning behind that belief? Nintendo does have a strong sense of tradition, but they also like to combine old ideas with new ones. Take Kirby Epic Yarn, a classic Nintendo character with a completely new aesthetic and play style. Or even the most recent 3D Zelda, which had a reworked set of combat mechanics. It's not like they don't like to experiment with new ideas, and this would be a relatively harmless one.

In regards to the fanbase comment, I think I am in error as I don't really know the fanbase that well so I made an assumbtion and I apologize.

I've found that nintendo's experiments were only published by nintendo, not developed by them. Kirby's epic yarn was developed by hal labratory, metroid prime was retro studios, pokemon x and y are gamefreak. Whereas first party developed games are only legend of zelda and mario, two franchises I feel have really stagnated in the last few iterations like super mario 3d world. I couldn't judge the latest zelda as I have not played it so you may very well be right about it.

Please note, that's not a huge problem, nintendo want to release polished games only for their first party games but they allow different studios the rights to use various ideas in their franchises, which is a very good thing and much better then a lot of publishers out there that are much more rigid with their ips. So nintendo themselves aren't really pushing the envelope too much recently but their support for other developers with their ips is certainly to be commended.

But in regards to a female link, I feel like a female playable character would be a good thing it's just link is so bland a character that I think a female representation would be pointless with such a blank slate and not add anything to the game. They shouldn't do it just because they can, they should because they want to use it to assist with story and character development and I feel zelda has more potential in that area as she's consistently had more character then link for the longest time now.

Playing as zelda would also promote a very different feel of combat and puzzle solving which I would much appreciate but you could make an argument that you could do this a female link. Which is fair enough, I just don't want zelda to be ignored in the series of games named after her. Link's been playable in so many games, why not zelda as she's been established to be able to handle herself fine.

 

[Olas]

Okay, just to start off I think we've reached an agreement on a lot of things, so I'm only replying to the few points you made that I still take issue with.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

In skyward sword, it is stated explicitly that this cycle, the goddess, the hero, and the evil, will continue ad infinitum. Unlike many of my points, this has been directly told to us by Nintendo.

No it hasn't. Yes, the CYCLE will repeat. The cycle of Ganon rising and Link defeating him with the power of Zelda and the triforce. This doesn't mean that Zelda will be always be a reincarnation of Hylia each time.

I followed your suggestion and actually did some research to confirm this. Here's the wiki page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Hylia"]Hylia[/a]. Notice the part where it says:

"Beginning as a divine entity, she was later, by her own choice, reborn into a mortal form as the first incarnation of Zelda, making her the true ancestor to the Royal Family of Hyrule and explaining the magical powers passed down within their bloodline."

Keywords: first incarnation

If you read the page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Princess_Zelda"]Zelda[/a] it basically says the same thing from Zelda's perspective. The first Zelda in Skyward Sword was the reincarnation of Hylia, every following Zelda was simply inheriting the power through the Hyrulian bloodline.

Never, anywhere, is it stated that each Zelda is herself a reincarnation of Hylia, and it's strongly implied that that isn't the case. If each Zelda is actually Hylia herself, Nintendo hasn't said so to my knowledge.

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

No. Hylia only takes on mortal form when she is needed to combat the evil. This is her role in destiny. This, again, is explained, directly in skyward sword. It is told to the audience by Hylia herself.

Then why is Zelda's power passed down through her bloodline as stated in the games and every wiki page about her or the royal family?

If it's simply Hylia taking human form why would she always have to be a direct descendent of the first Zelda? Couldn't she just be any random chick, or guy for that matter?

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

There is a difference. Link, for example, in most adventures does not appear to possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life. He is a simple boy/man until something spurs him to heroism, and he then becomes the hero. In the case of Zelda things operate differently. The hylian royal family has an intimate connection with the goddess, being that the progenitor of the line was the first reincarnation. Hylia does not use every family member as a vessel, though it is likely she acts as a kind of conscience or advisor as hinted at in A Link to the Past. When she takes direct physical form, it is as princess Zelda. It is always as princess Zelda, but that does not make every Zelda hylia, merely all of the Zeldas we have seen.

But why? you ask, are all of the zeldas Hylia?

In three sentences: Hylia is necessary to defeat the evil which threatens the land. Were she to not appear, the hero would fail and the world would be conquered/destroyed/enslaved and so on. This hasn't happened (with the exception of one branch of OoT) and thus every Zelda we have seen is Hylia.

Please provide evidence of this assertion. I've already provided my counter evidence above.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special.

That's just the thing though, Zelda did stop ganon by herself. In OoT, after link returns to the past. He warns Zelda about what will happen if ganon is left unchecked. She uses this knowledge to prevent his rise to power and ganon is executed. She didn't do this on her own, without the hero, because she lacked the courage to take such a brash action (ganon was already influential and well-liked at the court).

You're still missing the point. I'm not talking about her possessing the courage to stop Ganondorf. I'm just talking about courage in general. You were basically describing her as a big pussy who couldn't do anything physical or dangerous on her own. And I think that's untrue in at least several of the games.

Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character

I wouldn't go that far. What Zelda has shown, through gameplay with the certain boss fights, and in OoT with sheikh, is that when she must act, she will, and she will take a wise action.

You can call it "wise action" if you want. It doesn't change the fact that she often puts herself in dangerous situations that a more fearful person would shrink away from. She may be doing it for a logical reason, but it still requires courage I'd argue.

I also find it weird that you treat "blind courage" like a positive trait over rational courage. The times in Windwaker when Link tries to charge blindly at Ganondorf he nearly dies and only survived by other people coming to his rescue. His disregarding logic seems like a flaw to me. I'd argue that it's his amount of courage, not his lack of reason, that makes him special. Of course this is all very speculative and a bit off topic.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Link does not appear cowardly in any sequence involving enemies, to my knowledge. Your comment about redheads I assume is directed towards to light flirting that occurs in the series? in which case bashful might be a better word? I am not sure of your meaning here.

I said "REDEAD" not "REDHEAD", as in these things:

Which literally paralyze Link with fear long enough to begin humping him like a catholic priest. I'm not trying to call Link a coward, I just want to point out that his courage has limits as well.

Record for Longest post?

Not even close. You must not have been here when Mass Effect 3 came out.

 

[Dragonbums]

That wiggle room is exactly why Link doesn't need to be a girl.

It goes both ways. The wiggle room can also be exactly why Link can be a women if Nintendo so chooses to.

I don't see a reason why you must change Link's gender to add depth here. The story isn't deep, pretty much anything'll do.

Nobody claimed that making Link a women for a game was going to add depth. At most people suggested that it might add interesting gameplay changes such as if said female Link was a Gerudo.

The game isn't being sexist if it doesn't change Link and to do so would be pointless.

And nobody claimed that Link not being a woman was sexist either.

Gender bending Link by itself isn't some genious or in depth writing tool and it brings nothing to the table.

Who is claiming that a female Link will add more depth into the games?

It is shallow with nothing supporting it.

There is nothing really supporting a male Link either aside from being the default gender for 20 years simply due to fan familiarity.

Gender bending is every bit as shallow as those saying the writing in the game already is.

Genderbending is only shallow to you. However for other people it can be a pretty fun and creative outlet. Look how popular the genderbent Adventure Time characters are. They got so popular that they were even thinking about doing an offshoot series. Nobody got their panties in a twist about that.
This is also ignoring the fact that people in other fandoms have no issues with genderbending canon characters themselves. Games however seems to always make a big damn fuss about things like this like a single game featuring a female character as main as opposed to a male one will end the whole damn franchise in ashes.

 

[mechman123]

Links gender has no real impact on what he does or how he does it, so changing him into a woman would had the same affect and would seem to be nothing more than a token gesture. I'd actually rather see a game about zelda more than just see a gender swap game. Have her be the controlled character while link is sidelined, all while preserving the cycle that nintendo has established. Have her have to save him so he can get his things together so they can both save hyrule.

 

[garcian67]

Okay, just to start off I think we've reached an agreement on a lot of things, so I'm only replying to the few points you made that I still take issue with.

Excellent.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

In skyward sword, it is stated explicitly that this cycle, the goddess, the hero, and the evil, will continue ad infinitum. Unlike many of my points, this has been directly told to us by Nintendo.

No it hasn't. Yes, the CYCLE will repeat. The cycle of Ganon rising and Link defeating him with the power of Zelda and the triforce. This doesn't mean that Zelda will be always be a reincarnation of Hylia each time.

I followed your suggestion and actually did some research to confirm this. Here's the wiki page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Hylia"]Hylia[/a]. Notice the part where it says:

"Beginning as a divine entity, she was later, by her own choice, reborn into a mortal form as the first incarnation of Zelda, making her the true ancestor to the Royal Family of Hyrule and explaining the magical powers passed down within their bloodline."

Keywords: first incarnation

All of this is true, unequivocally.

If you read the page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Princess_Zelda"]Zelda[/a] it basically says the same thing from Zelda's perspective. The first Zelda in Skyward Sword was the reincarnation of Hylia, every following Zelda was simply inheriting the power through the Hyrulian bloodline.

It isn't a matter of simple inheritance, however. Every member of the royal family possesses some measure of Hylia's power due to blood relation with her first mortal form. This much is known and agreed upon.

As to the Zelda's herself, I look to the numerous occasions where she, in-game, must be "restored" or "awakened" in order to defeat the evil. (wind waker, minish cap, spirit tracks where she is separated from her soul) I see this as the revival of the true hylia, while the whole family possesses some power, the Zeldas we have seen are the result of the entirety of hylia's dormant power being realized.

Never, anywhere, is it stated that each Zelda is herself a reincarnation of Hylia, and it's strongly implied that that isn't the case. If each Zelda is actually Hylia herself, Nintendo hasn't said so to my knowledge.

No, we aren't lucky enough to have such a thing stated explicitly. Whether each Zelda is Hylia herself or merely possesses a measure of Hylia's power, the argument at large is not greatly weakened.

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

No. Hylia only takes on mortal form when she is needed to combat the evil. This is her role in destiny. This, again, is explained, directly in skyward sword. It is told to the audience by Hylia herself.

Then why is Zelda's power passed down through her bloodline as stated in the games and every wiki page about her or the royal family?

If it's simply Hylia taking human form why would she always have to be a direct descendent of the first Zelda? Couldn't she just be any random chick, or guy for that matter?

The power is passed to every member of the family, but we have only ever seen young princess zeldas use it. There was a time when a king of hyrule used the triforce and (likely) the power granted to him by hylia to keep hyrule at peace for a long time, but this is never the setting for a game, only told in the lore.

As to why it must be a member of the royal family, it has to do with the bloodline. When hylia chose to be reborn as a mortal, she essentially gave up a measure of her omnipotence. Her spirit appears to be bound to the bloodline started with the first princess Zelda in skyward sword. This is evidenced by the terrible events that occur in the downfall branch of the timeline, after Ganon exterminates every descendant of the goddess and is able to take complete control.

In this way, she cannot be a random person because her spirit must follow the blood. At least, this is true for what we have seen so far.

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

There is a difference. Link, for example, in most adventures does not appear to possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life. He is a simple boy/man until something spurs him to heroism, and he then becomes the hero. In the case of Zelda things operate differently. The hylian royal family has an intimate connection with the goddess, being that the progenitor of the line was the first reincarnation. Hylia does not use every family member as a vessel, though it is likely she acts as a kind of conscience or advisor as hinted at in A Link to the Past. When she takes direct physical form, it is as princess Zelda. It is always as princess Zelda, but that does not make every Zelda hylia, merely all of the Zeldas we have seen.

But why? you ask, are all of the zeldas Hylia?

In three sentences: Hylia is necessary to defeat the evil which threatens the land. Were she to not appear, the hero would fail and the world would be conquered/destroyed/enslaved and so on. This hasn't happened (with the exception of one branch of OoT) and thus every Zelda we have seen is Hylia.

Please provide evidence of this assertion. I've already provided my counter evidence above.

Evidence of which assertion?

I shall attempt to cover all of them:

About every Zelda being Hylia, the three sentences written are the core of my reasoning, this taken with the notes further up should describe why I think this, and you are free to dispute that reasoning.

As to the statement that is appears Link doesn't possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life: Here I am talking about the length of Link's life before he becomes a hero. In OoT he is thrown into the cycle fairly young, but even there he must prove his courage by purifying the deku tree. In Twilight princess he is in his mid/late teens before he does anything outright courageous, it is when he attempts to save Talo. In wind waker he is a normal boy until he sets out to save his sister. In all of these instances, there is a period of his life where, it is implied, he does not appear outwardly special. This, to my mind, shows that the spirit is selective about who it chooses to inhabit, and it picks someone who has demonstrated courage and has a reason for fighting (saving a loved one usually seems to be the theme) beyond merely participating in the cycle.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special.

That's just the thing though, Zelda did stop ganon by herself. In OoT, after link returns to the past. He warns Zelda about what will happen if ganon is left unchecked. She uses this knowledge to prevent his rise to power and ganon is executed. She didn't do this on her own, without the hero, because she lacked the courage to take such a brash action (ganon was already influential and well-liked at the court).

You're still missing the point. I'm not talking about her possessing the courage to stop Ganondorf. I'm just talking about courage in general. You were basically describing her as a big pussy who couldn't do anything physical or dangerous on her own. And I think that's untrue in at least several of the games.

I will address this later on in the statements about blind courage and character flaws, as I believe it will fit best there.

Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character

I wouldn't go that far. What Zelda has shown, through gameplay with the certain boss fights, and in OoT with sheikh, is that when she must act, she will, and she will take a wise action.

You can call it "wise action" if you want. It doesn't change the fact that she often puts herself in dangerous situations that a more fearful person would shrink away from. She may be doing it for a logical reason, but it still requires courage I'd argue.

I also find it weird that you treat "blind courage" like a positive trait over rational courage. The times in Windwaker when Link tries to charge blindly at Ganondorf he nearly dies and only survived by other people coming to his rescue.

I am not treating his blind courage as a positive trait, as I mentioned before, without being tempered by Zelda at several points throughout the series, Link would have been killed before he was able to amass enough power to actually defeat ganon.

"when Link tries to charge blindly at Ganondorf he nearly dies and only survived by other people coming to his rescue"
A thousand time this. This idea is a staple of the series. It goes all the way back to the base conflict between the three virtues, courage alone won't stop powerful malice, it needs to be applied with wisdom.

Zelda doesn't generally put herself in dangerous situations though. Tetra does in the beginning of Wind Waker, but she is somewhat of a special case and is seemingly unaware of her true identity. Even conceding that example, however, it still stands that Zelda makes choices without the type of courage displayed by the hero. In twilight princess, for example, when Zant invades she surrenders rather than go to war. It can be argued this also takes a type of courage, and it does, but it is different from the virtue embodied by the triforce. Back to OoT, she hides as Sheik, rather than clear the temples and awaken the sages, despite possessing the power to.

In boss fights, all that is really shown is that, in conjunction with the hero, she is a badass. When Link is there to support her, she will do whatever is needed to defeat ganon, but when Link is absent, this initiative is largely absent as well.

His disregarding logic seems like a flaw to me. I'd argue that it's his amount of courage, not his lack of reason, that makes him special. Of course this is all very speculative and a bit off topic.

It is most certainly a flaw. It is Link's biggest flaw, and one reason both the hero and the goddess (or Zelda, since we still have disagreement here) are needed to stop Ganon. We have seen what happens to Zelda when link is not there, She disguises her identity and attempts to avoid Ganon altogether (OoT, while link is maturing). We can assume what would happen to Link should he attack ganon well before he is ready (basically any game in which link confronts ganon before the very end). It is this dependency I am referring to when I call Zelda timid. She has the power (at least in OoT) to defeat ganon on her own, but she doesn't act because it is risky. Link, on the other hand, almost actively tries to get himself killed due to rage. Zelda is incredibly wise, but almost too cerebral, she seems to believe that observation will make the right path clear to take, whereas link just wants to break some bones, no matter where that would leave him.

Zelda's flaw is that she's not enough like link and Link's flaw is that he isn't enough like Zelda, it harkens back to the theme of duality underlying the series.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Link does not appear cowardly in any sequence involving enemies, to my knowledge. Your comment about redheads I assume is directed towards to light flirting that occurs in the series? in which case bashful might be a better word? I am not sure of your meaning here.

I said "REDEAD" not "REDHEAD", as in these things:

Which literally paralyze Link with fear long enough to begin humping him like a catholic priest. I'm not trying to call Link a coward, I just want to point out that his courage has limits as well.

I honestly forgot those things existed and always just called them zombies. This can be viewed as his courage having limits, which it realistically must (just as ganon's power and Zelda's wisdom have limits). Or it could be argued that the scream they use to paralyze Link bypasses courage and is a more magical/biological effect, but this is conjecture and not very supportable.

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that Link's courage is his defining trait.

Record for Longest post?

Not even close. You must not have been here when Mass Effect 3 came out.

I can imagine.

 

[mattttherman3]

Hahahaha, this will never happen. Nintendo is far too happy with the status quo when it comes to zelda games. The last 2 were essentially the same with the exception of the skyward sword baddie being Gannon merged with the twisted metal clown.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I think it is just a stupid idea. We don't need to go around making popular characters female just because feminsm is a hot topic right now. If you want to have a game with a female main character go make a new IP. I have nothing against playing females in game, infact I have played females when there is a choice between male and female, I do ,however, have a problem with changing an established character's gender just because of feamles wanting more female character.

 

[Coakle]

My reasons for believing a strong connection between femininity and divinity in the LoZ universe in order of decreasing strength are as follows:
4)In OoT 5 of the 7 sages, or 4 of 6 not counting Zelda, are female.
5)In Wind Waker 2 out of 3 sages are female (neglecting Makar because makar is a plant without a gender
6)The Gerudo in OoT are lead in Ganon's absence by two witches who act as soothsayers. They were also Ganon's surrogate mothers and helped him hone his sorcery

There are some counter arguments to this, you can point out the several prominent male spirits in twilight princess, or the minor deities of certain tribes in wind waker and OoT being male, but I believe the feminine argument is stronger.

I would avoid using Sages to prove the connection between Divinity and Feminity. Sages seem to need a medium in order to use the power of the Goddesses (OOT: Medallions WW: Intruments TP: Mirror of Twilight, or Zelda herself), just like Link.

That gender shouldn't play any role in the duties of being a Sage is emphasized pretty heavily. Although girls are the majority for OOT, there are none in TP. Makor is characterized as a guy and his predecessor was a guy as well. It's also established that until a Sage's duties are over they cannot marry.

The existence of girl Sages supports the idea that a girl could be Link, since they are limited to using objects to work with divine power, despite their femininity. I don't think it's enough support, since the Sages' traits are tied closer to Zelda's than Link's.


I'd drop the 6th point as well. There are a lot of different types of magic in LoZ. The magic that Twinrova uses seems to be based off the ice and fire rod designs, which were made by Hylians. The magic Great Fairies and Zelda taps into is the divine stuff.

Off-Topic: Nice job making this thread into an interesting read. Olas too.

 

[Pink Gregory]

Here's an idea. Y'know how, at the end of Wind Waker, it's Link and Zelda battling Ganon as a team?

Take that idea and apply it to a game. Sure it does require having an NPC follower (or some kind of odd split control scheme) for the entire game, and that would require a lot of careful design to make work; but the dungeons in WW that involved Makar and Medli were interesting.

 

[Waddles]

Why make Link female? Just for the sake of it? If you wanted a female character you could, you know, make a new character

 

[Karadalis]

Sure why not... heck at this point Nintendo has tried everything else...

 

[The Material Sheep]

You know I wouldn't have an issue with female link. However I'd rather they just have a game based around Zelda. Ocarina of Time from the Shiek perspective could be cool since there is a lot of fill in the blank to deal with there. At the end of the day, I feel like gender swapping link is not needed when the series has a lot of good female characters already, that would be perfect for a protagonist of a Zelda game.

 

[Paprik]

For a very long time I actually thought Zelda was the main character and that it was a blonde girl. Bad art and name design is fun sometimes.

 

[nondescript]

Link is so androgynous that I don't think it matters one way or the other. He has no voice, he's only vague male to begin with, no obvious sexual leanings and all his skills could be picked up a "chosen one" that was a girl. Anyone upset by this suggestion I think is having a knee-jerk reaction to an established character. The name would probably change, but that's the only real masculine thing he has going for him.

 

[Savagezion]

That wiggle room is exactly why Link doesn't need to be a girl.

It goes both ways. The wiggle room can also be exactly why Link can be a women if Nintendo so chooses to.

I don't see a reason why you must change Link's gender to add depth here. The story isn't deep, pretty much anything'll do.

Nobody claimed that making Link a women for a game was going to add depth. At most people suggested that it might add interesting gameplay changes such as if said female Link was a Gerudo.

Gender bending Link by itself isn't some genious or in depth writing tool and it brings nothing to the table.

Who is claiming that a female Link will add more depth into the games?

Even in your example, it was making him a Gerudo that added anything. Which it added in the way of the story and him being Gerudo adds more than him swapping genitals. Hell, it's the only thing that adds anything and what it is trying to add is depth (through shifted perspectives) to the world and/or lore. Which can be done without a sex change.

It is shallow with nothing supporting it.

There is nothing really supporting a male Link either aside from being the default gender for 20 years simply due to fan familiarity.

Ah, so it has at least 1 thing supporting it then, doesn't it? Don't act like 27 years of being a iconic character in the gaming industry is not such a big deal either. I would say it is due to Miyamoto's vision, not fan familiarity. We are only familiar with it because that's how he made Link.

Gender bending is every bit as shallow as those saying the writing in the game already is.

Genderbending is only shallow to you. However for other people it can be a pretty fun and creative outlet. Look how popular the genderbent Adventure Time characters are. They got so popular that they were even thinking about doing an offshoot series. Nobody got their panties in a twist about that.

A fun and creative outlet? Because your avatar is a girl in green instead of a guy in green? You must have been overjoyed when Link got a red tunic and a blue tunic. Think of the possibilities...

Nice example comparing a 27 year old flagship franchise character with a TV show who has been on for like 2 years and had gender bent in like 1 year. Yeah, they are totally the same thing. I love Adventure Time and Avatar: TLA/Korra so yeah I am totally cool with gender bending being on the table. Even through reincarnation or without it specifically. My neices find it funny that often when they see me playing a game I am a playing a girl character. (Whcih I often do because they are around.) Yet, I am not only not cool with gender bending Link, I find it pointless and retarded. Especially over simply asking for a female counterpart. Nobody can tell me why this is "OK". "Let's mutilate a character cause we're bored with a series" is what I am seeing. I am not "OK" with that kind of mob mentality. God forbid you just don't buy it if you're bored.

The game isn't being sexist if it doesn't change Link and to do so would be pointless.

And nobody claimed that Link not being a woman was sexist either.

Not claimed, but passive aggressively implied.

...

This is also ignoring the fact that people in other fandoms have no issues with genderbending canon characters themselves. Games however seems to always make a big damn fuss about things like this like a single game featuring a female character as main as opposed to a male one will end the whole damn franchise in ashes.

The bolded part shows you are impying that not being cool with letting people gender bend Link is due to some sort of fear of female characters. (Which usually translates to sexism) It implies that this really isn't about Link, its about having a woman be the main character. More specifically, a male one no longer get to be the main character. If someone isn't OK with that (even though everyone I have seen in the thread is against change for the sake of change, not against female protagonists) they are on a sexist crusade to defend their boys club mentality. This goes back to a thread I made LONG ago about how this whole thing in gaming is no longer about solving the problem of females being underrepresented and misrepresented in the industry - its a witch hunt aimed to call out the community as sexist even if it means making shit up to do it.