Poll: Would you die for your country?

[Anton P. Nym]

However, my point is built upon the idea that cases can arise where sacrifice is the only way to preserve a country or engage in those pursuits and accomplishments of the aforementioned Person X. But I feel that history has, at very least, shown those times can come about. Poland '39, for example.

And I think the point about suicide bombers is incidental. Their sacrifice is misplaced I think, but that doesn't mean all forms of sacrifice must be.

I think I went a bit astray with the suicide bomber point; all I wanted to mark out is that the ability to sacrifice oneself for an ideal isn't always good, and indeed can make things worse when abused by unscrupulous others.

To be honest, though, I view deliberate sacrifice as a waste. Risk, though, is essential because there are times when one must gamble. I'm really glad that there are, for instance, Search and Rescue teams and Firemen should I ever get lost or trapped; that there are police I can go to should I ever get in trouble; that there are soldiers should I ever be threatened by enemies: I'm glad they're willing to take calculated risks on my (or anybody's) behalf. But they don't plan on dying doing it anymore than I do; they're just willing to take on bigger odds, because they have the training and expertise to handle them and I don't.

The operative part, though, is that they're doing it to save people, not a nation. I don't value patriotism for its own sake; I don't venerate a flag or an ideal as (unfortunately in my point of view) too many do. Dying for an abstraction like one's country isn't an idea I can feel comfortable with, but dying while trying to save a friend or passer-by is.

PS- I hope I don't sound offensive, I'd rather you took this as dialog than argument. I'd rather hear your side and have a good discussion than "win."

Not at all, I'm glad to discuss points of view rationally even when I don't necessarily agree with them.

-- Steve

 

[USSR]

Actually I would die for it if we had a reason to die for it.

Do we really have freedom?

If war comes and if you are called to go to war..you have to or get sent to jail. That is not freedom.

President Nixon was the first to notice this and said"what the hell..presidents dont really do shit in this country so lets have a little fun with it..I can live above the law"

President Bush fucking sends this entire country to war and gets off scott-free, but out there people are getting sent to jails for a petty crime they didnt even commit.

I will get up and die for this country the second it gives me a reason or the second it actually gives me freedom!

 

[samsprinkle]

"patriots often talk of dying for thier country, but never of killing for it..." -Wise Man

Ya, what he said!

 

[samsprinkle]

and then we'd all have a dance for tits and giggles and have a nice frothy beer! srry, but i disagree. im not rying to be an ass but mankind has destruction ingrained inside of them

 

[Saskwach]

Yet, according to this poll, out of every 3 of you, only 1 person would fight for your country. Do you not value these things? Because there are plenty of people around the world who live without them, and they value them enough to go to war, revolt, become terrorists, illegally immigrate, go to jail, or even die.

As you point out, suicide bombers are willing to die for their countries. One would think that adequate reason to question the value of willingness to die for one's country.

To reverse the old trope, if suicide bombers didn't jump off bridges would you wonder about the wisdom of not jumping off bridges?

I think I went a bit astray with the suicide bomber point; all I wanted to mark out is that the ability to sacrifice oneself for an ideal isn't always good, and indeed can make things worse when abused by unscrupulous others.

The people in this forum have implicitly recognised that dying for a country isn't always good, and have headed this off by explaining why they would defend their own country. These reasons extend beyond "it's mine".

Everybody dies, sooner or later; all that differs is how and when. And yet we view the death of a child or young adult as a tragedy because we wonder what that youth might have accomplished with the time remaining, and mourn the wasted potential. So why hurry the process? What great good might be accomplished if Person X had chosen to live for his country instead?

Death will come for me eventually; that doesn't mean I'm in a hurry to meet it. It does mean that I should be in a hurry to do what I can before then, but alas I am not a hero.

That's a fair view to have but I have the reverse. Instead of asking "Why hurry the process?" I ask "Why live having sold out my ideals if one day I'll die anyway?"

PS: Ask any soldier who's seen action, and he'll likely agree that soldiers don't really go to die for their countries; if they do give up their lives it's for the guy next to him, as so tritely yet concisely put in Saving Private Ryan. (I've heard actual veterans agree with that sentiment. It's not just Spielbergian schlock.) Politicians and philosophers may think it's for some abstract concept like patriotism, but according to those who've been in the mud it's actually a mix of looking out for buddies and not wanting to look like a coward.

I would ask what it was that led them to join in the first place. The reasoning behind joining and hefting your weapon are different: they occur at different times and under vastly different circumstances. I would also point out that it is often asserted that it's hard to be an atheist in a foxhole; just as I wouldn't ask a man currently under bombardment for an accurate appraisal on God's existence, I wouldn't ask him why he got himself into this mess.

The operative part, though, is that they're doing it to save people, not a nation. I don't value patriotism for its own sake; I don't venerate a flag or an ideal as (unfortunately in my point of view) too many do. Dying for an abstraction like one's country isn't an idea I can feel comfortable with, but dying while trying to save a friend or passer-by is.

As has been stated several times, a country is more than an abstraction: it is people. An invasion on a country would (in this hypothetical invasion of America, Aus, UK, etc) most likely represent the aggressor's decision that he/she/they doesn't particularly like the people in that country, and doesn't expect to be all that nice to them when the war is over. Therefore, defending a free country from an invasion can quite easily be the exact same thing as a policeman defending a civilian from an assault. The difference is that many people are being assaulted, and the end to that assault is not in sight.
It's true that policemen, firemen and search and rescue don't intend to die doing their jobs, but neither does a soldier. All accept that risk that you mentioned, which itself is a sacrifice (I accept that in doing my job the risk that I might die will increase dramatically.)

 

[chronobreak]

Am I one of the only people from the US that find these poll numbers disturbing? I can assume a lot of you are from here, as I've seen a lot of talk about the states. There's a lot of folk that don't realize how good we have it here.

 

[Deliverance]

I love Australia but not everything about it, so probably not.

There are lots of questions like ranking patriotism, faith, family, etc. and for me family comes above everything and so this would dictate a lot of my actions. If dying for my country left leaving my parents distressed and sad then no it would not happen, but if it also meant their lives were at risk then sure I would.

 

[stompy]

Post

Hmm, let me rephrase my statement: for me, killing for my country would be a lot harder than dying for it. If I could give my life to save the ones I love, or a large group that have not wronged me, then fine, my life for theirs sounds like an equivalent exchange. But, and this is a big 'but', I'm not psychologically ready to kill someone, or something, else for a piece of land. It's not the way I've been raised.

Sorry, there's a difference between me and others, which I failed to factor in.

 

[Doug]

Well, when it comes down to it, I'm a huge personal coward, so no, I wouldn't really die for my country. Especially one in which the rich get all the power whilst the rest of us are ignored (the UK is pretty much like that these days. 'Rich and willing to donate to the labour party? Come right in!').

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I admire people who are willing to do it for their courage, but its not something I could do.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

If I were to be entirely honest, no I would not and considering I live in Canada that is saying something from most people's perspective. Why? Because factoring in the average salary of a soldier, it would not benefit me whatsoever to defend this Country. Essentially speaking my loyalty/patriotism amounts to whomever is willing to pay the most.

 

[Reaperman Wompa]

No, I love my country but dealing with some of the people has left me with a very intense love/hate relationship. And I'm Australian so because we're so far off the map that the only way we could get in a war is if someone really, really fucks up, I wouldn't want to die for someone else's mistake or for some idiotic reason.

 

[goodman528]

As you point out, suicide bombers are willing to die for their countries. One would think that adequate reason to question the value of willingness to die for one's country.

My point is built upon the idea that cases can arise where sacrifice is the only way to preserve a country or engage in those pursuits and accomplishments of the aforementioned Person X. But I feel that history has, at very least, shown those times can come about. Poland '39, for example.

And I think the point about suicide bombers is incidental. Their sacrifice is misplaced I think, but that doesn't mean all forms of sacrifice must be.

I didn't mention suicide bombers specifically, but now you've brought it up, I think they are villanised unfairly. A suicide bomer blows up a few people in a market, a B-52 bomber drops a few thousand tons of cluster bombs, both for the clear purpose of killing people, yet just because the B52 pilot wears fancy cloths, so all of a sudden the suicide bomber is seen as the villan, and the pilot is seen as a hero figure.

As for when sacrifices are misplaced and when they are worthwhile, it's a pretty complicated thing which no one really knows for sure. You will almost certainly not know if your sacrifice can mean anything at all at the time you have to make that decision. Even in cases like poland '39, it's pretty arguable, 'cos Poland was taken over by the Soviets after the war, and a lot of Poles who foght for Poland are not communists, like the Warsaw Uprising '44. As for sacrificing to perserve your country and its way of life, a lot of Japanese soldieres died for that in the Pacific, but even though they lost, Japan today is still pretty Japanese. So sacrifice is really the sort of case where you just go with your gut and hope you are right.

As for soldiers grunting in the mud fighting for the guy next to them rather than anything abstract, that's understandable, we are only human and we fight for real things we value. But that's just the individual level, in the big picture, in the long run, any war that's winnable has to be a justifiable war, i.e. you have to give your people good reasons to fight, beyond their daily rations and platoon comradeships. Those reasons would be abstract ideals, like:

(WWII) Liberty and freedom OR "purity" and "honor";

(Cold war) freedom and democracy OR justice and equality;

(Korean) self determination OR helping thy neighbour;

(Vietnam) ??? OR defending your home;

(Gulf) cheap oil OR ???;

Soldiers don't stick around (or join up) for the tupence a day... Napleon might have said something like that. Although today many engineers do join defence companies for the good salaries and (relative) lack of red tape.

 

[Evilbunny]

Yes, I would definitely fight and die for my country. If let's say Russia invaded and intended to turn the US into a brutal dictatorship, I would give everything to stop it.

 

[rowan-thats-me]

for me it would be down to why the UK was at war in the first place, say we ran out of oil so the government anounced conscription to invade a country with high oil reserves then no(something a bit like Iraq). but, if we went to war with a country because they did something incredibly bad(something like the nazi's during WWII) then I would consider risking my life, I would also sacrafice myself if it would save other people, that would happen in either circumstances.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I don't owe any allegiances with Soil so No

 

[Chechosaurus]

Well offically, Wales isn't a country which therefore makes it England in some kind of messed up way. So really I would be dying for the English and when I look at people like Jade Goody and Fern Cotton and David Cameron I just kinda think... Fuck 'em.

 

[ianuam]

Depends who invaded. I might consider joining up, but there's a difference between fighting for your country and making a conscious effort to die for it. I'd much prefer to live, thank you very much, things are worth fighting for, not dying for.

 

[144_v1legacy]

No. A country that one would have to die for in order to protect is flawed enough that it isn't worth conciously dying for. The only exception to this is when there is only the option of die for everyone or live forever in slavery while everyone else also lives forever in slavery, or something similar.

 

[Schaufel]

To all the Americans out there who are saying that the USA is such a terrible place, which you wouldn't be willing to die for... be thankful that you live in America where you actually have the luxury of being able to decide that you aren't willing to fight for your country.

Most places throught history, and even in the world today don't give you the option. You don't get an option... your choices are die fighting our enemies, or die right now.

By the way, if you don't like it here so much, by all means, get out. There are plenty of other people around the world that would kill to be in you shoes. Thousands of people try to get into the United States every day, and many die trying. If you don't appriciate it here, feel free to trade places with someone who will.