Poll: Your Pet is Drowning, and so is a Stranger.

[lunavixen]

I'm not a strong swimmer, i can get myself out of trouble, but not other people at the same time. if there was something suitable i could anchor the other end of, i would throw it to the person, but other than that i'd have to call for help

 

[Caliostro]

A life is a life, it's all the same shit.

That's bullshit. There is a reason the millions of cells that die when you scratch your ass don't cause you moral concern, it's because not all lives are equal. Humans are more worthy of moral concern because they have a higher capacity for suffering than animals.

And what makes you think I have moral concern for the life of random people? I kill bacteria because otherwise they'd kill me. Or because they cause me significant discomfort. Plenty of people in this world I wouldn't bat an eye about eliminating for similar reasons.

Also, that statement is factually incorrect. Animals have just as much capacity for suffering. They have a central nervous system. Behaviour analysis shows they're more than capable of feeling and expressing grief. This is a scientific fact. It's also easily perceivable if you've ever owned a pet. The only difference is that they don't speak in a language you natively understand.

In fact, I often think animals are more intelligent than we are... I mean, they certainly seem to understand us better than we understand them.

Someone has never owned a cat or a goldfish. I can promise you neither would lift a paw/fin to help you.

A cat would actually. Plenty of evidence to it.

And a goldfish wouldn't actually remember you more than not want to help you. So basically he'd be on the same level of a random stranger. Also a goldfish would have a really though time drowning. In fact if a goldfish was drowning they would be far beyond my help.

 

[madgaurd1989]

Pet since even after the stranger has drowned I know how to resuscitate them due to first-aid training or someone calls an ambulance. Drowned is not dead.

 

[Candidus]

My relatives, friends and pets are my tribe. Nobody else.

I'll choose me and mine over a stranger eight days a week, from Monday to Fablasday. No doubt. End of story. You can be as disgusted as you like.

 

[Drejer43]

Okay guys imagine you are drowning and you scream for help, and the only one who is nearby is a stranger, you feel relief as you see the person jumps in the water, but only to be replaced by anger and a feeling of the world being unfair, when the person jumps in the water only to save his cat, without a second glance at you...

Don't say that "well I am not a good swimmer, so I probably couldn't save the human" This isn't a question about you being able to, but if you were able, what you would do.
It is a Human being, people, and you just let that person die. I don't care if you say that he/she "could" be a total douche-bag, fact is you don't know since this is a stranger!
Frankly I didn't think this was something that had to be debated on the escapist. I am extremely disappointed

 

[Pandabearparade]

You can be as disgusted as you like.

Trust me, I am. Though I didn't need your permission first, just so you know.

Frankly I didn't think this was something that had to be debated on the escapist. I am extremely disappointed

As am I. I thought the Escapist was one of the better internet communities out there, comprised of upstanding, decent people.

Hah. Well, at least the ratio of morally lacking individuals and decent humans isn't 2:1, like on MMO-Champion.

 

[Matthew Kjonaas]

scream for help since I am not a strong enough swimmer for two people and would be dooming us both.

 

[Drejer43]

This thread saddens me greatly, and I find it ironic that so many people here always complain about the state of humanity, yet openly admit they'd let a member of their own species die to save a pet. That's far worse than reading trash magazines or being stupid in my mind.

You sir said what my mind was thinking, and unfortunately from now on every time I see someone on their high horse posting "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" I will instantly think of this thread

 

[omicron1]

Huh. There do indeed seem to be more people concerned with puppies than with people. Who'd've thought it.

Human. First. Always.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You sir said what my mind was thinking, and unfortunately from now on every time I see someone on their high horse posting "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" I will instantly think of this thread

Agreed. Often when I find myself thinking "I don't want to live on this planet any more" it's because I don't want to share it with a platoon of moralizing prats who continually presume that their values must necessarily be shared by everyone, and that those who don't are ethically bankrupt. I'll let people decide for themselves what's most important to them, as I would expect the same courtesy to be extended to me. Maybe I'm just crazy that way.

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

You guys don't go to R&P very often do you?

 

[gibboss28]

What's this? A thread where if I answer wrongly in a hypothetical scenario I get judged by someone who was more than likely raised differently than me therefore said persons morals will likely be different from mine?

FUCK YEAH! Where the hell do I sign up for that bullshit!?

This message was brought to you by the 'sweet mother of god 27 pages, are you kidding me?' Foundation and Supported by the 'and before you say, yeah I know that by posting in this thread, I am adding to the ridiculousness of this thread...but I don't really care' Trust

 

[Drejer43]

snip

snip

I guess that is the way it goes, and I can see that it is me who is on the high horse right now, I guess the shock of this thread is making me say stupid things. But it is just that even though I try to get in the mindset of the other side, it is just so fundamentally wrong to me, that I can't even understand it. So yes I probably am moralizing, sorry for being one of "those" people, but at this particular topic my eyes only see it in black and white.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I guess that is the way it goes, and I can see that it is me who is on the high horse right now, I guess the shock of this thread is making me say stupid things. But it is just that even though I try to get in the mindset of the other side, it is just so fundamentally wrong to me, that I can't even understand it. So yes I probably am moralizing, sorry for being one of "those" people, but at this particular topic my eyes only see it in black and white.

You're being an uncommonly good sport, so please don't take this as me piling on. The key word here is "fundamentally". I've always had an issue with fundamentalism of ANY stripe. I understand it can be very difficult to disengage ourselves from our emotional reactions to things, and your values are your values, and I certainly don't disrespect them. I think it is very important, though, that we remember that our values are just that...OUR values. Not a blueprint for righteous behavior that others must follow lest they be damned. I'm sure we don't need to sit here and comb through history to find all the incidences where that kind of thinking lead to Bad Things happening.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I assure you, I am not a robot. I am as real as any human being you've met. I simply hold my respect for human life higher than my respect for its value according to law.

Also, Have you seen this boy?

**snorts at Terminator humor**

....

... wait, is that...? **looks closer**

....

Yes. Yes I have seen that boy. You can see him too. Just press the Red Button.

 

[Drejer43]

You're being an uncommonly good sport, so please don't take this as me piling on. The key word here is "fundamentally". I've always had an issue with fundamentalism of ANY stripe. I understand it can be very difficult to disengage ourselves from our emotional reactions to things, and your values are your values, and I certainly don't disrespect them. I think it is very important, though, that we remember that our values are just that...OUR values. Not a blueprint for righteous behavior that others must follow lest they be damned. I'm sure we don't need to sit here and comb through history to find all the incidences where that kind of thinking lead to Bad Things happening.

But even though you respect peoples values, just a quick question: wouldn't you feel slightly bitter or angry (you know in between drowning) if it actually happened to you?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But even though you respect peoples values, just a quick question: wouldn't you feel slightly bitter or angry (you know in between drowning) if it actually happened to you?

Of course I would, but I feel bitter and angry if I have to wait at a red light in traffic. My bitterness/anger isn't really relevant to anything or anyone other than me. If I'm angry because someone chooses to save their dog from drowning instead of me, it's because I value my life more than his dog's, not because he needs to value my life more than his dog's.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So if someone was fundamentally against Nazism, you'd think they were wrong yeah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Is this the part of the discussion where we argue back and forth using lazy analogues?

 

[Drejer43]

I guess that is the way it goes, and I can see that it is me who is on the high horse right now, I guess the shock of this thread is making me say stupid things. But it is just that even though I try to get in the mindset of the other side, it is just so fundamentally wrong to me, that I can't even understand it. So yes I probably am moralizing, sorry for being one of "those" people, but at this particular topic my eyes only see it in black and white.

You're being an uncommonly good sport, so please don't take this as me piling on. The key word here is "fundamentally". I've always had an issue with fundamentalism of ANY stripe. I understand it can be very difficult to disengage ourselves from our emotional reactions to things, and your values are your values, and I certainly don't disrespect them. I think it is very important, though, that we remember that our values are just that...OUR values. Not a blueprint for righteous behavior that others must follow lest they be damned. I'm sure we don't need to sit here and comb through history to find all the incidences where that kind of thinking lead to Bad Things happening.

So if someone was fundamentally against Nazism, you'd think they were wrong yeah?

Edit ninjaed

 

[maxben]

You can be as disgusted as you like.

Trust me, I am. Though I didn't need your permission first, just so you know.

Frankly I didn't think this was something that had to be debated on the escapist. I am extremely disappointed

As am I. I thought the Escapist was one of the better internet communities out there, comprised of upstanding, decent people.

Hah. Well, at least the ratio of morally lacking individuals and decent humans isn't 2:1, like on MMO-Champion.

Hey man, I just have a thought. Its crazy that this thread has gone on for 27 pages, but you should take a deep breathe and try to understand what is going on here. The two perspectives on any one of these kinds of scenarios are about objective or subjective value. In certain scenarios you will be able to make an objective calculation: pet or human. In others you will not: your mom or a man supporting not just his immediate family but his extended family back home in x country. Other times its more grey: A new mother or your grandmother when she is old and frail and is likely to die soon. But different people answer differently. The reason it sounds crazy that pet-lovers would save their pets is because pet-lovers are a smaller population of the world. So the people who bond and value their pets highly and closer to human relations like mothers seem crazy to the rest of us. Now if the question was turned to a more grey area like "if your pet was extremely frail and on death's door and the human is a new mother", im sure the percentage would skew heavily towards the new mother.

Now Im not an animal person in general, so I dont really understand them either, but they must consider their pets something akin to blood relations (which makes sense because of how involved they are in the pet's life). Therefore your question about some random person who could be a criminal for all they know and have no emotional bond to to a healthy loving and loyal pet that they feel related to, maybe even as a parent to, would sound crazy to them. And Im sure thats how they framed it, while you framed it as some animal that eats and shits and a human with a family (even though he could have been a homeless person or a rapist or a thief as much as a mother, a responsible father, or newly-wed). Hell, maybe he was dying from a terrible disease and you "saved" him from an easy death and now he is going to sufer for another 5 years before dying?

Edit: and I'm sure most people who answered pet arent like the guy talking about how he is selfish as a moral system. That will always be a tiny population, and Ayn Rand was a fad and not a long-lasting impression on the world for a reason.