Poll: Zeitgeist Movement

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Sejs Cube

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OKay so basically what I take away from all of this is that they're a bunch of post-scarcity idealists with a very shaky understanding of human social theory.

That's precious. And these people have made movies centered around the tenets of this quirky worldview of theirs? How adorably Randian. They must be terribly fun at parties.
 

Zacharine

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NotR said:
It is a problem of the monetary system, as the moneteray system focuses on resource distribution. Either we implement an objective guideline for "good" and "just" within the system, or we do not and suffer the consequences as humans form within a system that does not set such quantifyable guidelines.
I will respond to the rest later, but you do remember the Hayek quote from earlier?

"We must face the fact that the preservation of individual freedom is incompatible with a full satisfaction of our views of distributive justice."

Because a fact is that resources and wealth are unevenly distributed from the get go. Some areas have better farmland. Some areas more oil. Some areas more forest, some lakes, some precious minerals.

Wealth is then produced, as symbolized by money, by utilizing these resources. Goods, services.

Another fact: People prefer different goods and services to satisfy themselves. Some prefer football for fun, others badminton. Some prefer to eat rye bread, others apples.

However, even distribution of those goods and services necessitates that the person actually owning the wealth, has no say on how to use that wealth. For example, they cannot use that wealth to pay for a transporation company to bring them more apples, because apples are evenly distributed. Likewise, they cannot sell their rye bread, because rye bread is evenly distributed.

This holds true even for larger groups. Some prefer to read in their free time, some prefer sports. Others prefer to stockpile food, others prefer painting. Yet if all are evenly distributed, large groups of people end up having with too much of one for their tastes, and too little of the other.

Coupled with a third fact, first law of economics (scarcity), we arrive at a point where there isn't enough of any particular product or service for anyone.

Trade facilitates mutual satisfaction. Not due to the nature of money, but due to the nature of man: we each have unique preferences, and if given freedom, will seek to satisfy those preferences. Leading to inequal distribution of goods and services.
 

somonels

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Seen all of them.

I did not see a call for discussion, which makes me wonder why people do so.
 

NotR

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dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
It is, in short, a group advocating a "resource based economy", which would distribute resources around the globe in cohesion with the prime nesecities of all human beings on the planet (provided the use of modern advanced technologies, the application of which are being hindered by the profit-orientated nature of human activity). This would bring about an increased level of social equality - the absence of which is seen to be the prime cause for much social distress we see in the world today, and have witnessed in the course of history (an era of privatisation, if you will). Combines a very behavioristic approach to human psychology (thus, changing human environment -> changes human psyche), critique of the ideological isolation and intellectual materialism of modern day social institutes, competitive nature of human interaction, and the realisation of the illusiveness of human distinctions. Advocates that humanity has reached the point (globalization/technologies/understandings) where many elements of our current system have completely lost their relevance. A very brief overview.

Furthermore, as one can transpire from the nature of the questions within the poll my aim is not to spark some huge ideological debate.
So, dumbing it down and probably loosing much of the message, it's like an automated perfect comunsism that also takes away a large part of a large part of what makes us human, free choice? (No, that repetition was not an accident. I mean it takes away a large part of our free choice)

Or have I got the gist of it wrong?
It has alot to do with socialism, yes, being implemented with the prospects of modern technology. Taking the behaviouristic approach to human psychology - our environment forms who and what we are. Hence saying that there is only one static state of the environment which "makes us human" is invalid. I see it as the recognition of the illusiveness and irrelevancy of any distinction which transfers resources from a group of people who cannot support their biological existence without them to a group of people who require them to achieve more sophisticated goals, which I talked about in an earlier post.

So yes, it would take away freedom of consumption to such a degree, where there would be enstated a different method of resource distribution prioritization.
I'm seeing quite a bit of misreading of what I wrote, weather willfull, intentional, or simply accidental.

Socialism and communism are two different systems. Comunsim wants to distribute all resources and work equally ammongst everyone while socialism strikes a balance between Capitalism and Comunsism, meaning that while you are free to run your business how you want, buy what you can and want, and make as much money as you can, some of that wealth you generate will be used to improve the lives of the less successfull. At least that's my understanding of it.

I never said there was one static state of the enviorment that makes us human. I said it was one large -part- of what makes us human. If we are no longer free to choose to do as we think best, then we will be nothing more than slaves, or animals, or machines. I don't care if I would be more comfortable like that, I would not want to loose my ability to chose for myself what I do with my life. I will gladly bear the consiquences of my actions, because I believe that is one of the fundimental things that make us human.

again, -one- of the fundimental things.

Please don't twist words to suit your needs. It's unbecoming.
I did not twist anything. You asked "Or have I got the gist of it wrong?", implying that I state my understanding of what the Zeitgeist movement is. Hence I did just that.

About freedom of choice - freedom is just an extension of the environment. Nobody is talking about taking away your ability to think - your ability to do so is already limited by your motivations and needs being formed within a certain ideological spectrum. Hence a new environment would enstate new limits for this "freedom".
 

NotR

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SakSak said:
NotR said:
It is a problem of the monetary system, as the moneteray system focuses on resource distribution. Either we implement an objective guideline for "good" and "just" within the system, or we do not and suffer the consequences as humans form within a system that does not set such quantifyable guidelines.
I will respond to the rest later, but you do remember the Hayek quote from earlier?

"We must face the fact that the preservation of individual freedom is incompatible with a full satisfaction of our views of distributive justice."

Because a fact is that resources and wealth are unevenly distributed from the get go. Some areas have better farmland. Some areas more oil. Some areas more forest, some lakes, some precious minerals.

Wealth is then produced, as symbolized by money, by utilizing these resources. Goods, services.

Another fact: People prefer different goods and services to satisfy themselves. Some prefer football for fun, others badminton. Some prefer to eat rye bread, others apples.

However, even distribution of those goods and services necessitates that the person actually owning the wealth, has no say on how to use that wealth. For example, they cannot use that wealth to pay for a transporation company to bring them more apples, because apples are evenly distributed. Likewise, they cannot sell their rye bread, because rye bread is evenly distributed.

This holds true even for larger groups. Some prefer to read in their free time, some prefer sports. Others prefer to stockpile food, others prefer painting. Yet if all are evenly distributed, large groups of people end up having with too much of one for their tastes, and too little of the other.

Coupled with a third fact, first law of economics (scarcity), we arrive at a point where there isn't enough of any particular product or service for anyone.

Trade facilitates mutual satisfaction. Not due to the nature of money, but due to the nature of man: we each have unique preferences, and if given freedom, will seek to satisfy those preferences. Leading to inequal distribution of goods and services.
Yes different areas carry different resources. The manner of their distribution is enthralled within the owner's desire to make a profit to satisfy needs (the sophistication of which depends on the developement of the society in which he or she has been formed). The ability of their distribution is a whole different topic. It lies within the clearly identifiable and quantifyable realm of technology. If the manner of application of technology also lies is the desire of profit (in the basic sense) - the developement and advance of the system at hand lies in quantity, not quality (technology being the backbone thereof). If technology were to be applied with the idea of social well-being (social equality being an indicator thereof), I doubt that we would struggle in terms of supporting life on earth.

Scarcity, niche markets, target marketing promote themselves, for it is profitable to do so. The nature of man is formed within the environment. His flaws are a reflection of the flaws within the system. I believe that prioritization of resource distribution, would greatly increase social well-being. The assortement of goods is not what I have in mind when it comes to sustaining life on earth. As a very practical example - take all the money spent on advertising (which i believe to be basically the marginal costs of the competitive nature of the market structure) and spend it on feeding and clothing (satisfying the minimal biological needs) of all people in the world. I think that would adhere to the true meaning of the term "civilization" - a "civizlized" system, where such "good/bad" prioritization is no longer an abstraction but is a quantifyable varuable within the system. In this way the liquidity of money promotes the uneven distribution of wealth (what many call "freedom"), hence resulting in the elevation of competition for resources, within which humans are born and raised and hence one might mistake the inherited characteristics as enstated by the system for "human nature".
 

dvd_72

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NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
It is, in short, a group advocating a "resource based economy", which would distribute resources around the globe in cohesion with the prime nesecities of all human beings on the planet (provided the use of modern advanced technologies, the application of which are being hindered by the profit-orientated nature of human activity). This would bring about an increased level of social equality - the absence of which is seen to be the prime cause for much social distress we see in the world today, and have witnessed in the course of history (an era of privatisation, if you will). Combines a very behavioristic approach to human psychology (thus, changing human environment -> changes human psyche), critique of the ideological isolation and intellectual materialism of modern day social institutes, competitive nature of human interaction, and the realisation of the illusiveness of human distinctions. Advocates that humanity has reached the point (globalization/technologies/understandings) where many elements of our current system have completely lost their relevance. A very brief overview.

Furthermore, as one can transpire from the nature of the questions within the poll my aim is not to spark some huge ideological debate.
So, dumbing it down and probably loosing much of the message, it's like an automated perfect comunsism that also takes away a large part of a large part of what makes us human, free choice? (No, that repetition was not an accident. I mean it takes away a large part of our free choice)

Or have I got the gist of it wrong?
It has alot to do with socialism, yes, being implemented with the prospects of modern technology. Taking the behaviouristic approach to human psychology - our environment forms who and what we are. Hence saying that there is only one static state of the environment which "makes us human" is invalid. I see it as the recognition of the illusiveness and irrelevancy of any distinction which transfers resources from a group of people who cannot support their biological existence without them to a group of people who require them to achieve more sophisticated goals, which I talked about in an earlier post.

So yes, it would take away freedom of consumption to such a degree, where there would be enstated a different method of resource distribution prioritization.
I'm seeing quite a bit of misreading of what I wrote, weather willfull, intentional, or simply accidental.

Socialism and communism are two different systems. Comunsim wants to distribute all resources and work equally ammongst everyone while socialism strikes a balance between Capitalism and Comunsism, meaning that while you are free to run your business how you want, buy what you can and want, and make as much money as you can, some of that wealth you generate will be used to improve the lives of the less successfull. At least that's my understanding of it.

I never said there was one static state of the enviorment that makes us human. I said it was one large -part- of what makes us human. If we are no longer free to choose to do as we think best, then we will be nothing more than slaves, or animals, or machines. I don't care if I would be more comfortable like that, I would not want to loose my ability to chose for myself what I do with my life. I will gladly bear the consiquences of my actions, because I believe that is one of the fundimental things that make us human.

again, -one- of the fundimental things.

Please don't twist words to suit your needs. It's unbecoming.
I did not twist anything. You asked "Or have I got the gist of it wrong?", implying that I state my understanding of what the Zeitgeist movement is. Hence I did just that.

About freedom of choice - freedom is just an extension of the environment. Nobody is talking about taking away your ability to think - your ability to do so is already limited by your motivations and needs being formed within a certain ideological spectrum. Hence a new environment would enstate new limits for this "freedom".
Don't we want to reduce the limitations on our freedom to think, not make them tighter? A system like this will give people the option of forgoing thought, something I see some people do with thier religions and letting that do thier thinking for them. This will infact limit us further, rather than freeing us to make of the world what we will.
 

NotR

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dvd_72 said:
Don't we want to reduce the limitations on our freedom to think, not make them tighter? A system like this will give people the option of forgoing thought, something I see some people do with thier religions and letting that do thier thinking for them. This will infact limit us further, rather than freeing us to make of the world what we will.
Implementing a system which would prioritize resource distribution amongst humans to satisfy their basic needs in food, water and shelter, whilst erasing irrelevant artificial bounderies and distinctions which contribute to social stratification and the competitive self-perserving division of the human race would put a limit on our freedoms? Is having to work to provide onesself with means for survival freedom? Is being born into a different social status just? Doesn't technological progress aim to free humans from labour? Or are we to believe that humans would not find motivation to do anything within a system that provides them with these things?
 

dvd_72

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NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
Don't we want to reduce the limitations on our freedom to think, not make them tighter? A system like this will give people the option of forgoing thought, something I see some people do with thier religions and letting that do thier thinking for them. This will infact limit us further, rather than freeing us to make of the world what we will.
Implementing a system which would prioritize resource distribution amongst humans to satisfy their basic needs in food, water and shelter, whilst erasing irrelevant artificial bounderies and distinctions which contribute to social stratification and the competitive self-perserving division of the human race would put a limit on our freedoms? Is having to work to provide onesself with means for survival freedom? Is being born into a different social status just? Doesn't technological progress aim to free humans from labour? Or are we to believe that humans would not find motivation to do anything within a system that provides them with these things?
And what would motivate us to improve? to strive for more? You have to take human nature into account. We are, overall, competative beings. it's the way of the world.

By taking away not only the need, but the ability to progress to a point above your peers would be debilitating to our pshyche. we would become apathetic, having no dreams or desires to strive for because everything is provided.

This notion that everyone is equal is a naive ideology. some are stronger, some are faster, some stronger, some healthy and some weak. Calling these divisions "artificial" is blinding yourself to the way of the world.

I'm not saying the world is perfect as it is. Those born in a lower social 'class' tend to find it extremely difficult to rise up beyond that, even with incredible talent. But tell me, is it fair to have those who work hard, who strive with all thier might for thier dreams to be equal to those who are content with the basics of life, to just go through a routine day by day? Should these motivated, brilliant people be held to the same level as those who are content with a simple, unnasuming life that takes little to no effort?

In the end, it is the struggles we go through, the struggle to survive, the struggle to surpass those around you, that makes us who we are. Taking these away would be taking away a large part of what we need to grow and develop as a human being, where we learn who we are and what kind of person we are. In my eyes, taking those opportunities away would contribute to a culture where nothing progresses and everything stagnates.
 

NotR

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dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
Don't we want to reduce the limitations on our freedom to think, not make them tighter? A system like this will give people the option of forgoing thought, something I see some people do with thier religions and letting that do thier thinking for them. This will infact limit us further, rather than freeing us to make of the world what we will.
Implementing a system which would prioritize resource distribution amongst humans to satisfy their basic needs in food, water and shelter, whilst erasing irrelevant artificial bounderies and distinctions which contribute to social stratification and the competitive self-perserving division of the human race would put a limit on our freedoms? Is having to work to provide onesself with means for survival freedom? Is being born into a different social status just? Doesn't technological progress aim to free humans from labour? Or are we to believe that humans would not find motivation to do anything within a system that provides them with these things?
And what would motivate us to improve? to strive for more? You have to take human nature into account. We are, overall, competative beings. it's the way of the world.

By taking away not only the need, but the ability to progress to a point above your peers would be debilitating to our pshyche. we would become apathetic, having no dreams or desires to strive for because everything is provided.

This notion that everyone is equal is a naive ideology. some are stronger, some are faster, some stronger, some healthy and some weak. Calling these divisions "artificial" is blinding yourself to the way of the world.

I'm not saying the world is perfect as it is. Those born in a lower social 'class' tend to find it extremely difficult to rise up beyond that, even with incredible talent. But tell me, is it fair to have those who work hard, who strive with all thier might for thier dreams to be equal to those who are content with the basics of life, to just go through a routine day by day? Should these motivated, brilliant people be held to the same level as those who are content with a simple, unnasuming life that takes little to no effort?

In the end, it is the struggles we go through, the struggle to survive, the struggle to surpass those around you, that makes us who we are. Taking these away would be taking away a large part of what we need to grow and develop as a human being, where we learn who we are and what kind of person we are. In my eyes, taking those opportunities away would contribute to a culture where nothing progresses and everything stagnates.
No, competiteveness is not human nature. There is no "human nature" within the societal identification of a human being - we are formed by external stimulus. If you think that without the need to compete to sustain biological survival humanity will find no motivation to "move on" - you are reserved to defining "motivation" only in the currently relatable sense. New incentives are bound to appear, as the identity is relieved from conflict with the relatable elements of the environment, and hence its perception of itself within the environment. It is the paradigm of competition that slows the true "progress", that is the instillment of a harmoneous perception of universal existence. The identity becomes more stubborned to external stimulis, any natural incentive to explore the environment (curiousity) is hindered.
 

dvd_72

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NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
Don't we want to reduce the limitations on our freedom to think, not make them tighter? A system like this will give people the option of forgoing thought, something I see some people do with thier religions and letting that do thier thinking for them. This will infact limit us further, rather than freeing us to make of the world what we will.
Implementing a system which would prioritize resource distribution amongst humans to satisfy their basic needs in food, water and shelter, whilst erasing irrelevant artificial bounderies and distinctions which contribute to social stratification and the competitive self-perserving division of the human race would put a limit on our freedoms? Is having to work to provide onesself with means for survival freedom? Is being born into a different social status just? Doesn't technological progress aim to free humans from labour? Or are we to believe that humans would not find motivation to do anything within a system that provides them with these things?
And what would motivate us to improve? to strive for more? You have to take human nature into account. We are, overall, competative beings. it's the way of the world.

By taking away not only the need, but the ability to progress to a point above your peers would be debilitating to our pshyche. we would become apathetic, having no dreams or desires to strive for because everything is provided.

This notion that everyone is equal is a naive ideology. some are stronger, some are faster, some stronger, some healthy and some weak. Calling these divisions "artificial" is blinding yourself to the way of the world.

I'm not saying the world is perfect as it is. Those born in a lower social 'class' tend to find it extremely difficult to rise up beyond that, even with incredible talent. But tell me, is it fair to have those who work hard, who strive with all thier might for thier dreams to be equal to those who are content with the basics of life, to just go through a routine day by day? Should these motivated, brilliant people be held to the same level as those who are content with a simple, unnasuming life that takes little to no effort?

In the end, it is the struggles we go through, the struggle to survive, the struggle to surpass those around you, that makes us who we are. Taking these away would be taking away a large part of what we need to grow and develop as a human being, where we learn who we are and what kind of person we are. In my eyes, taking those opportunities away would contribute to a culture where nothing progresses and everything stagnates.
No, competiteveness is not human nature. There is no "human nature" within the societal identification of a human being - we are formed by external stimulus. If you think that without the need to compete to sustain biological survival humanity will find no motivation to "move on" - you are reserved to defining "motivation" only in the currently relatable sense. New incentives are bound to appear, as the identity is relieved from conflict with the relatable elements of the environment, and hence its perception of itself within the environment. It is the paradigm of competition that slows the true "progress", that is the instillment of a harmoneous perception of universal existence. The identity becomes more stubborned to external stimulis, any natural incentive to explore the environment (curiousity) is hindered.
Ah, the old nature versus nurture argument. You're saying that we are born as nothing, and only our environment shapes who we will become. This is something I disagree with. We have a nature of our own, defined by the biological nature of the species, and the nature of each individual. After birth our environment does shape us, but only in ways that are filtered through our innate born nature.

Our desire to compete for superiority is a fact of not just our nature, but all life. The stronger the being, the more likely his or her genetic code will be passed on. That has been the driving force of evolution since the dawn of life on earth. The strong reproduce while the weak fade into history. We may have largly moved past survival of the fittest, but it remains a part of who we are. It's one of the primal things that make us human.

I don't see how you can say that competition hinders the natural incentive to explore the environment. It encourages us to find new and better ways than our competition to do some chosen action or process.

Ford using the factory line model to produce more cars cheaper than his competition.

The development of faster and smaller computer parts.

Sportsmen pushing the limits of what the human body can accomplish.

All these things are primarily motivated by competition. The need to be better. The desire to surpass your peers. Without these drives why would people need to push limits?
 

NotR

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dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
dvd_72 said:
Don't we want to reduce the limitations on our freedom to think, not make them tighter? A system like this will give people the option of forgoing thought, something I see some people do with thier religions and letting that do thier thinking for them. This will infact limit us further, rather than freeing us to make of the world what we will.
Implementing a system which would prioritize resource distribution amongst humans to satisfy their basic needs in food, water and shelter, whilst erasing irrelevant artificial bounderies and distinctions which contribute to social stratification and the competitive self-perserving division of the human race would put a limit on our freedoms? Is having to work to provide onesself with means for survival freedom? Is being born into a different social status just? Doesn't technological progress aim to free humans from labour? Or are we to believe that humans would not find motivation to do anything within a system that provides them with these things?
And what would motivate us to improve? to strive for more? You have to take human nature into account. We are, overall, competative beings. it's the way of the world.

By taking away not only the need, but the ability to progress to a point above your peers would be debilitating to our pshyche. we would become apathetic, having no dreams or desires to strive for because everything is provided.

This notion that everyone is equal is a naive ideology. some are stronger, some are faster, some stronger, some healthy and some weak. Calling these divisions "artificial" is blinding yourself to the way of the world.

I'm not saying the world is perfect as it is. Those born in a lower social 'class' tend to find it extremely difficult to rise up beyond that, even with incredible talent. But tell me, is it fair to have those who work hard, who strive with all thier might for thier dreams to be equal to those who are content with the basics of life, to just go through a routine day by day? Should these motivated, brilliant people be held to the same level as those who are content with a simple, unnasuming life that takes little to no effort?

In the end, it is the struggles we go through, the struggle to survive, the struggle to surpass those around you, that makes us who we are. Taking these away would be taking away a large part of what we need to grow and develop as a human being, where we learn who we are and what kind of person we are. In my eyes, taking those opportunities away would contribute to a culture where nothing progresses and everything stagnates.
No, competiteveness is not human nature. There is no "human nature" within the societal identification of a human being - we are formed by external stimulus. If you think that without the need to compete to sustain biological survival humanity will find no motivation to "move on" - you are reserved to defining "motivation" only in the currently relatable sense. New incentives are bound to appear, as the identity is relieved from conflict with the relatable elements of the environment, and hence its perception of itself within the environment. It is the paradigm of competition that slows the true "progress", that is the instillment of a harmoneous perception of universal existence. The identity becomes more stubborned to external stimulis, any natural incentive to explore the environment (curiousity) is hindered.
Ah, the old nature versus nurture argument. You're saying that we are born as nothing, and only our environment shapes who we will become. This is something I disagree with. We have a nature of our own, defined by the biological nature of the species, and the nature of each individual. After birth our environment does shape us, but only in ways that are filtered through our innate born nature.

Our desire to compete for superiority is a fact of not just our nature, but all life. The stronger the being, the more likely his or her genetic code will be passed on. That has been the driving force of evolution since the dawn of life on earth. The strong reproduce while the weak fade into history. We may have largly moved past survival of the fittest, but it remains a part of who we are. It's one of the primal things that make us human.

I don't see how you can say that competition hinders the natural incentive to explore the environment. It encourages us to find new and better ways than our competition to do some chosen action or process.

Ford using the factory line model to produce more cars cheaper than his competition.

The development of faster and smaller computer parts.

Sportsmen pushing the limits of what the human body can accomplish.

All these things are primarily motivated by competition. The need to be better. The desire to surpass your peers. Without these drives why would people need to push limits?
I can only point to what I've been writting before. Societal distinction is not within the genome. Ford producing more efficient cars and sportsmen pushing limits is not the progress I was speaking of. True progress is the instillment of a harmoneous perception of universal existence. A recognition of the single entity that is "existence", the unity of "reality" - humans do not need to be bound by any involantary instillment of who they are and what needs they must satisfy under any enstated structure, but realise that they are free to alter their perception. It is what some call "enlightenment". Progress is not in conflict, but in he realisation of the illusive nature therof and hence the awareness of the choice between conflict and harmony.
 

dvd_72

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NotR said:
I can only point to what I've been writting before. Societal distinction is not within the genome. Ford producing more efficient cars and sportsmen pushing limits is not the progress I was speaking of. True progress is the instillment of a harmoneous perception of universal existence. A recognition of the single entity that is "existence", the unity of "reality" - humans do not need to be bound by any involantary instillment of who they are and what needs they must satisfy under any enstated structure, but realise that they are free to alter their perception. It is what some call "enlightenment". Progress is not in conflict, but in he realisation of the illusive nature therof and hence the awareness of the choice between conflict and harmony.
It seems we have two different views of progress but I will also say that what you just said makes absolutely no sense to me, as in I do not understand it. Are you saying progress is an end goal? that progress is the point where you can .... what exactly?

If what I do understand is true, then I must disagree with your definition of progress. Progress is not the end or the goal, but the path we take to reach it. Progress is growth, in the individual, in society, and in our technological ability. Not some illusive, vaguely defined harmony.

I also don't understand this "humans do not need to be bound by any involantary instillment of who they are and what needs they must satisfy under any enstated structure, but realise that they are free to alter thier perception". I mean, who we are is defined by our thoughts and actions. Our needs are our own, and unique to ourselvs. There may be broad stroaks of similarities but in the details is where we differ.

Also, if the logistics of our lives are dictated by a machine, then how are we free to alter our perception? The only perception we get is the one given to us by the unified environment provided to us by this Movement. We already are free to alter our perception because there are so many different ways of seeing things, and it is through other people who are different at the core, and have grown up in different cultures that allow us to find them. This is because we grow as time goes on, as we meet new people, read books, and expirience the world around us. I see this as an attempt to shape the world so everyone expiriences the same, learns the same, sees the same, and thinks the same.

There is no diversity in that. Diversity will inevitibally lead to conflict, hopefully peacefull and thought out ones like the one we are having now, but sometimes violent ones. But without this diversity, without the conflict it brings, we would be living a sheltered life in which we have little to no chance of growing as individuals. as human beings.
 

Sniper Team 4

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It sounds like a Street Fighter movement from the title.

Judging by other people's posts, it has something to do with machines running everything? That sounds good on the surface--never having to work again, never having to worry about accidents--but anyone who's seen Terminator, I Robot, countless other movies, and/or heard the song, "In the Year 2525," knows that this is a bad idea.
 

NotR

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dvd_72 said:
NotR said:
I can only point to what I've been writting before. Societal distinction is not within the genome. Ford producing more efficient cars and sportsmen pushing limits is not the progress I was speaking of. True progress is the instillment of a harmoneous perception of universal existence. A recognition of the single entity that is "existence", the unity of "reality" - humans do not need to be bound by any involantary instillment of who they are and what needs they must satisfy under any enstated structure, but realise that they are free to alter their perception. It is what some call "enlightenment". Progress is not in conflict, but in he realisation of the illusive nature therof and hence the awareness of the choice between conflict and harmony.
It seems we have two different views of progress but I will also say that what you just said makes absolutely no sense to me, as in I do not understand it. Are you saying progress is an end goal? that progress is the point where you can .... what exactly?

If what I do understand is true, then I must disagree with your definition of progress. Progress is not the end or the goal, but the path we take to reach it. Progress is growth, in the individual, in society, and in our technological ability. Not some illusive, vaguely defined harmony.

I also don't understand this "humans do not need to be bound by any involantary instillment of who they are and what needs they must satisfy under any enstated structure, but realise that they are free to alter thier perception". I mean, who we are is defined by our thoughts and actions. Our needs are our own, and unique to ourselvs. There may be broad stroaks of similarities but in the details is where we differ.

Also, if the logistics of our lives are dictated by a machine, then how are we free to alter our perception? The only perception we get is the one given to us by the unified environment provided to us by this Movement. We already are free to alter our perception because there are so many different ways of seeing things, and it is through other people who are different at the core, and have grown up in different cultures that allow us to find them. This is because we grow as time goes on, as we meet new people, read books, and expirience the world around us. I see this as an attempt to shape the world so everyone expiriences the same, learns the same, sees the same, and thinks the same.

There is no diversity in that. Diversity will inevitibally lead to conflict, hopefully peacefull and thought out ones like the one we are having now, but sometimes violent ones. But without this diversity, without the conflict it brings, we would be living a sheltered life in which we have little to no chance of growing as individuals. as human beings.
If progress is the path to solving conflict (whence you have a goal, you have a need, whence you have a need, your are in conflict with the environment), then is the realisation that there is no conflict = progress? If yes, then the perception of reality without conflict is the perception of the essence of unity of existence. Now, a human. Imagine yourself devoid of all social distinction and functionality. Who and what are you? The answer is - you are that, what makes you an element of the universe (not society). The striving to solve conflicts implemented by the society is progress which loses relevance outside of the social organism, which implemented the conflict in the first place. Hence such progress can be discarted from your awareness of the "self", as being an element of the universe, as said earlier. The striving to solve conflicts implemented by the universe regarding you as an element of existence - progress which loses relevance only outside of existence, which implemented the conflict in the first place. Whether there is a conflict or not - I can tell you that there is no conflict if you percieve yourself as an element of the universal organism. To realise this one must acknowledge that any element reflects the nature of the system which it is a part of, as the very nature of it being an "element" is defined by the distinctive characteristics of that system. More specifically - humans must realise themselves as elements of the universe, only to realise that they are already in harmony as existence is without conflict. This is done by asking the question I've mentioned before "what am I outside of the social organism and its distinctive properties". Some call it meditation.

I've honestly tried to explain it as best as I can. I do not wish for anyone's freedom to be taken away. The notion of abundance the Zeitgeist films promote is abundance in relation to human need. Scarcity and assortement of products today generates a high demand because it exploits the competitive materialistic nature of the individual within the society. The broad spectrum of products we have today and their supposed scarcity is what drives demand. For example, if there is no assortment of cellphones on the market, everyone has an identical highly functional phone - all of the resources spent on the developement, adv campaigns, financial costs of all market competitors would not go to waste. I see the system we have today as a very circular one, in terms of the logic of its functionality.
 

dvd_72

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So you're saying we can be who we are without needing conflict? This may be true, but it is through conflict and our responces to it that we learn who we are. the need to know who we are is, in itself, a conflict between ones self and the concious mind.

Immagine an object, any object. It exists in and of itself, that is true, but without some kind of interaction it cannot be known. The very nature of who we are, of what we are, would be invisible to us in a world without conflict of any kind.

Not only that, but conflict changes us. By learning who we are, we change. by acting on our environtment, by responding to the world around us, we change and adapt and become better people, all while learning more of who we are, and who we want to become.

This can be likened to particles on a quantum scale. They can exist, but without interactions that we can observe, they remain unknowable. Also, the very act of knowing, of observing, changes the nature of the quantum object we are observing, just like the self of the human being.

How can one know who he or she is, within or without "the social organism and its distinctive properties" unless there is some way to observe the interactions of the self? without observing the self in action?

As for your cellphone example, if we all had the same average performance phone, what need would there be to make a better one? What we have is good enough, and making them better wont net us any gain. The desire to inovate, to improve upon, is greatly reduced. Instead, the competition between different phone manufacturers creates an environment where money and effort invested translate into not only an improvement in the quality of life, but in more money for those who put the work in. The aparant scarcity of the product is a function of that competition, an unfortuanate and ugly side we call greed. I do believe though that the drive competition gives us to improve is well worth a little bit of self intrest and a little bit of greed. There will allways be those willing to use advancements made due to the force of competition to improve those less fortuanate and while slower than what we might like, the wealth does spread. mostly.

I'm not saying the way the world works is perfect. Far from it. Competition has an ugly side, as I mentioned earlier, but it is up to us, as a species, through growth by expirience, to improve ourselvs and our social structure.

This movement, on the other hand, I see as going too far to the other end of the scale. What we have works, and works quite well, but needs quite a bit of tuening. That tuening should be in our personal ethics, through education and discussions like these, and an understanding that hard work brings prosperity, and a willingness to share lifts up the lives of those around us, making our own lives better. What we do not need is our instinctual drive to push ahead taken away from us, putting us equal to others who are not, in fact, equal to us in every way. We do not need a system that does not reward the individuals hard work, creativity, and effort. Doing so would slow our growth and advancement, encouraging apathy and discouraging personal effort.

In fact, I believe that this is why communism wouldn't work the way our minds are now. We are still too focused on lifting ourselvs above others before helping those others for a system of equality to all to work. That system also ignores the simple fact that some can simply -do- more than others, be it lift more, build better, think better, or be more creative than others. Without rewarding these people they will have little to no reason to strive to reach thier potential because everyone else will have the same anyways.

Now, as fun and engaging as this discussion has been, I need to get some sleep. Good night.
 

NotR

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dvd_72 said:
In my opinion, what you said is partially true, but existence and reality are of singular essense. It is without distinction. You and I are the reality experiencing itself subjectively. There is no conflict outside of that experience. And the realisation of our entity beyond this experience is what elevates a human to an absolute level of awareness and hence freedom.

There exists a certain "gravity" of any distinctory element of the universe towards the inherent unity of existence. It is often refered to as "love". I believe any action in accord with this motion to be "progress", as it reflects the motion towards the true entity of reality.

About competition fueling progress - in relation to what I've said above I do not believe this to be accurate. In relation to the example I made with the cellphone, in which I adressed the unnessesary waste and self-prepetuation of the current system - I think that competition (in the broadest sense applicable to our society) distracts humans from the progress I've mentioned above.

Also going to sleep now. Good night.
 

thiosk

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I suggest heartily that all supporters of non-currency lifestyles send me all their money.

You don't need it anyhow.
 

NotR

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thiosk said:
I suggest heartily that all supporters of non-currency lifestyles send me all their money.

You don't need it anyhow.
Supporters of a non-currency lifestyle? I struggle to understand who you mean by that.
 

Manji187

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Nimcha said:
Manji187 said:
Nimcha said:
Ah, yes. I would say their ideas are disgusting and very dangerous but thankfully nobody takes them seriously so it's not worth the trouble.
Disgusting how? Dangerous how (or to whom)?
Disgusting as in wanting to subject everyone to one way of thinking and surpress individuality and personal freedom. Dangerous as any other misguided ideology, it has power to attract people who are not satisfied with the current state of affairs.
Heh..you'll have to elaborate a bit.

What makes you think they want to subject everyone to one way of thinking (and what way is that?) and surpress individuality and personal freedom (and how do you define individuality and personal freedom?)?

Misguided how?

Are you satisfied with "the current state of affairs"?

Could you be more specific and substantial instead of obfuscating matters with one-liner like statements?
 

Nimcha

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Manji187 said:
Nimcha said:
Manji187 said:
Nimcha said:
Ah, yes. I would say their ideas are disgusting and very dangerous but thankfully nobody takes them seriously so it's not worth the trouble.
Disgusting how? Dangerous how (or to whom)?
Disgusting as in wanting to subject everyone to one way of thinking and surpress individuality and personal freedom. Dangerous as any other misguided ideology, it has power to attract people who are not satisfied with the current state of affairs.
Heh..you'll have to elaborate a bit.

What makes you think they want to subject everyone to one way of thinking (and what way is that?) and surpress individuality and personal freedom (and how do you define individuality and personal freedom?)?

Misguided how?

Are you satisfied with "the current state of affairs"?

Could you be more specific and substantial instead of obfuscating matters with one-liner like statements?
Plenty of other people have already explained why. The only way to arrive at this kind of society is to surpress all desires, ambition and innovation. In other words, turning people into mindless automatons. Someone not conforming to this way of thinking has no place in that society.

By misguided I mean being blinded by idealism and refusing to face reality because it's not what they want to see.

As for myself, I'm pretty satisfied. A lot could be different, possibly for the better. Stagnation is never good.