Polygamy

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Kirex

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
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"Designed"?

Look, if you want to discuss religious matters, I don't think this thread is the appropriate one.

The suggestion that the penis is "designed" implies intelligence behind it, and that means you're way into the realms of creationism.

The evolution of the species (and it's appendages) have no design or thought behind it. So stop talking nonsense...
Come on, cut him some slack, the word may be incorrect, but 90% of people know what he is trying to get across. It obviously doesn't matter in his argument whether the human penis is "designed" that way or just a result of evolution, there's nothing religious about that. Although I doubt his claim in itself, the discussion would take no other direction even if thought it was "designed by god" to be like this.

Also, definition of design:
(noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints;
The agent doesn't have to be intelligent, and you could arguably call evolutionary processes the "agent" of how the penis became what it is now. I don't see anything wrong with calling the (mid)results of evolution "design", as long as someone doesn't claim that evolution itself has any final purpose. What evolution brought up, body parts, organisms, etc. etc. all fulfill a purpose in their own temporary context.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Kirex said:
The agent doesn't have to be intelligent, and you could arguably call evolutionary processes the "agent" of how the penis became what it is now. I don't see anything wrong with calling the (mid)results of evolution "design", as long as someone doesn't claim that evolution itself has any final purpose. What evolution brought up, body parts, organisms, etc. etc. all fulfill a purpose in their own temporary context.
Sorry, im going to go with academic procedures on this one. And they wouldn't accept a paper where you describe how evolution has some sort of "design" or "purpose" since it's not scientific.

Evolution has "results" and "consequences" and "manifestations" yes, but not "purpose" or "design".

And as to the penis being able to trap and remove sperm from other men, first I'd like to see some credible sources supporting that statement. Then I'd like to see some sources providing objective proof that the ability of a human penis to do that is somehow integral to mankinds methods of procreation and that it is somehow connected to our instinctual behaviour. And when I say proof I mean PROOF, not some pseudo-scientist who cracked a theory.
 

Falseprophet

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Polygamy has been extremely common and prevalent throughout history across time and cultures. However, with only a tiny handful of exceptions, it has always been one man with several women. Even if having multiple legal spouses wasn't supported by the culture or society, rich and powerful men regularly had multiple mistresses, concubines, prostitutes, slaves, etc. Some recent genetic studies suggest that only 10% of men throughout history have passed along their genes, while almost all women who survived to childbearing age did, implying in most societies a handful of powerful men had access to most of the women.

Biology was the basis for these ancient arrangements--a human male has to invest very little to reproduce, and can fertilize many females over a short period. A female can only be fertilized by one man at a time and invests the greater part of a year carrying offspring to term. Biology doesn't restrict us in the same way these days, but that's the early foundation of human relationships.

In the Western world, most of our nations inherited the foundations of civil law from ancient Rome, and the Romans had very clear laws about monogamy (and divorce). Why?

The purpose of marriage as a legal institution is because even rich people can't make use of their property after death, so they wanted to ensure it would be passed on to appropriate heirs. For the Romans, children born within a marriage were "legitimate", and thus entitled to their parents' property. Children born out of marriage were "illegitimate" and entitled to nothing. Thus, a Roman patrician could have affairs with as many slaves or concubines as he wanted, but those children wouldn't inherit a thing--only the children had by his lawful wife would matter. So instead of having a dozen children fighting over their parents' estate, the Roman legal authorities could just declare the legitimate children as the heirs and tell the illegitimate ones to get lost. (The legal heirs might still fight among themselves but at least you've cut out a lot of the conflict.)

Religion might have invested the institution with all sorts of moral reasoning and whatnot, because in earlier times the boundaries between law, religion, philosophy and science weren't as strong as they are today (Roman "prayer" was more like a legal contract between the worshipper and the gods). But religion strictly had nothing to do with the original intent of marriage: a legal measure to ensure that property passed smoothly from parent to legitimate child without strife.

And that's why we don't do polygamy in the Western world. Even though we've invested a lot more meaning into marriage, like love, religion, family, etc., at its heart it's still a legal arrangement for the sharing and distribution of property, and adding more people to the contract would make things infinitely more complicated for tax purposes, family law, power of attorney, etc.
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Unscientific blanket statement.

The fact of the matter is that there are no scientific evidence to suggest that humans are (biologically speaking that is) either polygamous or monogamous lifeforms.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest it. We don't have detailed observation of ancient humans, but we have the biology of said ancient humans, no amount of society is going to change that.

A) Our sperm include a type of sperm that actively fights and kills other men's sperm

B) Our penis is shaped to displace the sperm of others in the incident of "sloppy seconds" to better ensure that the 2nd donor's sperm have a better chance of fertilization.

C) Studies have shown that men unconsciously penetrate deeper when they think their partner has been with another man.

And that's only a handful of biological evidence that I'm aware of that, suggests otherwise to your claim that there is "no evidence"

And in terms of your love lust comment, the reason I wont argue it, is because it's not the point of this topic.

Edit:

Oh, and "Mate for life" in the rest of the animal kingdom is incredibly rare, and the other creatures that have sex for fun, are not mate for life creatures. Nor are any of our closest animal relatives.

Edit x2:

I suppose I should have got caught up to date on the thread, others have started to point out how you're wrong.

Edit x3:

Alright, I'll go ahead and say one thing about the love and lust, then drop it.

Love and lust, two different feelings made from two different chemical reactions.
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Sorry, im going to go with academic procedures on this one. And they wouldn't accept a paper where you describe how evolution has some sort of "design" or "purpose" since it's not scientific.

Evolution has "results" and "consequences" and "manifestations" yes, but not "purpose" or "design".

And as to the penis being able to trap and remove sperm from other men, first I'd like to see some credible sources supporting that statement. Then I'd like to see some sources providing objective proof that the ability of a human penis to do that is somehow integral to mankinds methods of procreation and that it is somehow connected to our instinctual behaviour. And when I say proof I mean PROOF, not some pseudo-scientist who cracked a theory.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513803000163

Citation given.

Edit:

For the record, you can probably use that info to find a copy that doesn't cost money to read
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Draconalis said:
There is plenty of evidence to suggest it. We don't have detailed observation of ancient humans, but we have the biology of said ancient humans, no amount of society is going to change that.

A) Our sperm include a type of sperm that actively fights and kills other men's sperm

B) Our penis is shaped to displace the sperm of others in the incident of "sloppy seconds" to better ensure that the 2nd donor's sperm have a better chance of fertilization.

C) Studies have shown that men unconsciously penetrate deeper when they think their partner has been with another man.

And that's only a handful of biological evidence that I'm aware of that, suggests otherwise to your claim that there is "no evidence"
That still doesn't PROVE that humans are polygamous by nature, sorry. You see sperm are not the same thing as live human beings, and the "behaviour" of sperm isn't representative of the behaviour of human beings.

Also, I'd really like to see how those studies that you claim showed that men unconsciously penetrate deeper when they thin their partner has been with another man were conducted. If they actually were conducted at all that is.

Draconalis said:
And in terms of your love lust comment, the reason I wont argue it, is because it's not the point of this topic.
Bullshit cop-out. I have a hard time seeing that a moderator would actually reprimand you for bringing up views of love and lust and how some people make a distinction between them to be completely off-topic when the actual topic is polygamy.

The real reason you don't argue it is because you can't, and you know it as well as I do.

Draconalis said:
Edit:

Oh, and "Mate for life" in the rest of the animal kingdom is incredibly rare, and the other creatures that have sex for fun, are not mate for life creatures. Nor are any of our closest animal relatives.
Doesn't matter. Evolution has proved that the strategy is a beneficient one for genetic survival. It doesn't matter how "rare" it might be or if our closest animal relatives are monogamous or not. That still doesn't prove anything about humans.

There are no animals who could serve as reasonable analogies to humans, because no other animal on this planet possess the advanced brains that humans have. And it's those brains that make the matter of determining our nature and sexuality in an objective sense so difficult.

Prominent scientists who study biology and human behaviour knows this and don't make unscientific blanket statements like you have. So I find it kind of amusing that you believe that you can be so arrogant just because YOU SUBJECTIVELY happen to think that there is a distinction between love and lust. And naturally you purposefully interpret any studies and findings in a way that supports your views.

But that's not science. So stop trying to claim that your views have scientific support.

Draconalis said:
Edit x2:

I suppose I should have got caught up to date on the thread, others have started to point out how you're wrong.
No, no one has been able to do that as of yet actually...
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Bullshit cop-out. I have a hard time seeing that a moderator would actually reprimand you for bringing up views of love and lust and how some people make a distinction between them to be completely off-topic when the actual topic is polygamy.

The real reason you don't argue it is because you can't, and you know it as well as I do.
It's called self moderation. I'm not concerned about thee mods.

I'm growing tired of your assumptions and your overly hostile attitude. This thread is as close to a friendly debate as I have seen, and you're not contributing to it.

Consider yourself rejected. I no longer care about your opinion on the matter.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Draconalis said:
It's called self moderation. I'm not concerned about thee mods.

I'm growing tired of your assumptions and your overly hostile attitude. This thread is as close to a friendly debate as I have seen, and you're not contributing to it.

Consider yourself rejected. I no longer care about your opinion on the matter.
What is that sound I hear if not the familiar sound of someone running out of viable arguments?
 

the.gill123

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I supose that if that person dies it would cause hell to find out who the next of kin is, which one of the 9 women is it?
Also, it stops people from getting remarried, without getting a divorse and it probably makes it easier for the government to keep track of who is married to who, so it might jst be logistical reaspons
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
What is that sound I hear if not the familiar sound of someone running out of viable arguments?
Assumptions like this are exactly why your opinion doesn't matter anymore.

You can quote me all you like, but I wont be responding to you further.
 

BabyRaptor

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Generic Gamer said:
BabyRaptor said:
I won't go off on the long-winded ramble here unless someone asks, but...The big issues with Polygamy being legal Re: marriage are the "moral" issues religious people have with it and a lack of understanding.
It seems rather lazy to assume you're the only person who sees clearly and that everyone else is blinkered or stupid for not agreeing with you. Off the top of my head I can think of several good reasons it's illegal and none are to do with religious doctrine.
Nowhere did I imply that anyone was stupid. I said that most people I've encountered have the wrong idea of the topic.

"Religious doctrine" wasn't a reason I mentioned anywhere. Ever read the Bible? Polygamy is everywhere, and "One man, one woman" isn't ever actually mentioned as a rule. What I said was peoples' morals.

Lastly, that wasn't the only reason I listed, and you're talking like it was.
 

Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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Because America is founded on old puritan values and still has a majority of conservative and religious voters. Same reason they don't allow gay marriage in most places. One important thing to note is that the law is created from a cultural stand point and thus reflects the majority of thinking at one point or another. People did and still do get wiered out by polygamy so they outlawed it. If you don't understand why it doesn't matter. The law is not for you to morally and philosophically argue over in an internet forum because you don't like it, its for you to follow or protest if you like. If you want to go debate laws and legality go be a lawyer.
 

Roganzar

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Jun 13, 2009
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I don't have any real problem with Polygamy, either way. However, personal opinion on the matter for me would be; "One wife is hard enough to keep happy."
I do not understand why anyone would want multiple, just me. Other than that I see no problem with it. This to me is similar to why is gay marriage illegal? Love is a goofy thing and shouldn't matter whose genitalia you prefer or how many of it/them(?) you prefer. As long as its all adults and concenting.
 

Woodsey

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Draconalis said:
It doesn't surprise me that it's illegal there as well, but if there's no harm in it... why is it illegal?
Because of taxes and stuff like that. Its not illegal because of a moral standpoint (as far as I know; it is then that's ridiculous). I'm not an expert so I wouldn't know if its possible to update that sort of thing to accommodate multiple people in a marriage, without making laws a total mess.

There's nothing that says you can't be married and also have 5 more girlfriends though.

OT: From a personal view on multiple-relationships (and not the whole marriage thing), it would do my fucking head in.

People can do whatever and whoever the fuck they want as long as everyone involved is in agreement; I don't care. That other people are so offended by other people not being exactly the same as them baffles me.
 

TheRightToArmBears

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Polygamy has been used a lot throughout history to oppress women. Just sayin'. I can't imagine how that would work really, I don't understand you can love more than one person.

Hitokiri_Gensai said:
Both my girls came to me of their own free will. They choose to belong to me, to be my property yes. However, our lifestyle is not just a bedroom thing, its something we do in our lives as a whole, they never stop being my slaves, unless they opt to leave.
If you're going to lie on a forum, at least try to lie convincingly.
 

Rin Little

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Draconalis said:
And of course, the word I really mean is whichever covers both genders, as "Polygamy" is 1 man, multiple wives.

Woman can have as many lazy useless husbands as they would like as well. I didn't mean to imply it was only right in the reverse.
Actually, just a lil distinction between the two, polygamy is actually the definition of a man who has multiple wives, polyandry is when a woman has multiple husbands (but it happens a lot less)

But honestly it's whatever makes you happy for me. If an open marriage makes you happy and makes the relationship better then go for it.
 

Draconalis

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Sep 11, 2008
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I think it's very easy to love more than one person

Take your first love, in most cases, people always hold feelings for their first love, even if it didn't work out.
 

Azure-Supernova

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I'm not sure. I remember hearing about it briefly during our Mormon section of the American West study. Either way it's not for me, I'm one track guy with a one track mind. I'd rather dedicate all my love and affection to my fiancée than have it shared. It's what makes her happy after all.

Draconalis said:
I think it's very easy to love more than one person

Take your first love, in most cases, people always hold feelings for their first love, even if it didn't work out.
Whilst others would argue that it wasn't love if it didn't last in the fist place.
 

kidd25

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Princess Rose said:
kidd25 said:
it is religiousness for the bible say one man and one woman. The western civ, was influence by the bible and kept that in. others places mention above don't believe in the same thing and therefore don't have a problem. Also now a days it polgamy would have to be bit crazy cause women would want to be able to marry more than one guy and then people would be married to like 3 different people who are married to 4 different people and so on and so on. I'n other words polygamy is just to gratify one own lust, or make them feel powerful over others.
First off, wow - spelling and grammar check please. "Religiousness" isn't a real word.

Secondly, have you actually read the bible? It has all kinds of polygamy. Several sects of Christianity had polygamy as standard until the past hundred years or so. The Mormon faith still practices polygamy in some parts of the country (usually in secret, or unofficially - married in the church, but not according to the state). So no, the bible says that polygamy is totally okay and normal - because it was when the bible was written.

Thirdly... as to your last point, about polygamy creating power over others, that is indeed the problem that occurred in the US to cause it to be outlawed. However, while several individuals did abuse the practice, it doesn't mean that the practice itself is inherently bad - just that jerks will be jerks.
sorry i know my grammar is worst than a third grader, i'm trying to fix it ok :(

Yes, i forgot about that in the old testament that was my wrong. But still it seem when it is done in the old testament either turn away or don't listen to God then receive a punishment, or they aren't spoken of further more.

I see but it kinda is a form of greed, for i know we live in a society where people see sex as the ultimate form of love or a goal for men or women. Do not think that i think sex is bad, but people need to have more control over their sexual, but i ain't no one special I'm just preaching.

It is bad, for why have more than wife? just have harem which i'm guessing wouldn't make difference to some. I just wonder why we still have people who aren't religious that are marrying.