Pondering Adventure Games and Gameplay in Modern Gaming
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Well of course that didn't work; what the deuce is a "lonk"?Bob_McMillan said:The only point and click games I played are Flash games, and involved plumbers *ahem*
Anyway, did you really just self-advertise Yahtzee? And the lonk doesn't work
Do we count MediEvil as an adventure game, or an action one with puzzles in it? I still remember the Town level with it's chain of items to unlock stuff. Dan (you) is there to find something called The Shadow Artifact, which you need to progress through the Enchanted Forest, but it's locked in the safe in the Mayor's house (who needs rescuing from the Asylum a couple levels later). The key to that is hidden behind a wall in the church, which opens by placing a cross there. But you need to make the cross by finding a mold and a bronze bust and bringing them to the blacksmith's furnace and pump away on the bellows. That game had items that carried over from level to level!
captcha: Red Queen
That reminds me: there's a big Hedge Maze level that required solving riddles to progress, and one of them was moving around giant chess pieces.
That
*linkDarth_Payn said:Well of course that didn't work; what the deuce is a "lonk"?Bob_McMillan said:The only point and click games I played are Flash games, and involved plumbers *ahem*
Anyway, did you really just self-advertise Yahtzee? And the lonk doesn't work
Do we count MediEvil as an adventure game, or an action one with puzzles in it? I still remember the Town level with it's chain of items to unlock stuff. Dan (you) is there to find something called The Shadow Artifact, which you need to progress through the Enchanted Forest, but it's locked in the safe in the Mayor's house (who needs rescuing from the Asylum a couple levels later). The key to that is hidden behind a wall in the church, which opens by placing a cross there. But you need to make the cross by finding a mold and a bronze bust and bringing them to the blacksmith's furnace and pump away on the bellows. That game had items that carried over from level to level!
captcha: Red Queen
That reminds me: there's a big Hedge Maze level that required solving riddles to progress, and one of them was moving around giant chess pieces.
That
Typing on mobile is like cutting vegetables without thumbs.
Blade Runner. There. A game that brought to point and click adventure games more innovation than David Cage could dream of(and don't worry, plenty of emoshuns too), and that was 18 years ago. No silly use-a-woodpecker-on-a-forklift type of puzzles, non-linear storyline, and multiple endings. Boggles my mind why next to no one has tried to copy this game.
Hello, have you met my friend?Darth_Payn said:
It's interesting as hell to watch his thought process on all this... as well as his ego stubbornly being force fed
But I also think he's palming an Ace and just waiting for someone in some interaction somewhere to guess it and then we can just jest it was in the cards all along
But I also think he's palming an Ace and just waiting for someone in some interaction somewhere to guess it and then we can just jest it was in the cards all along
We hear what you are saying, Ben. Come help us with "sonder." We could always use one more opinionated, uncompromising adventure games fan!
https://vimeo.com/125564577
http://www.kamaikamai.com/index.php/en/projects
https://vimeo.com/125564577
http://www.kamaikamai.com/index.php/en/projects
As mentioned by Cacophony, I think Gone Home is a good example of a "Modern Adventure Game", save the somewhat constructed ghost story...
It comes down to a thing I'm pondering now and then for over twenty years now: Which (good) non violent core interactions are possible in gaming, meaning, beyond shooting weapons? I maintain a simple list to which I add anytime I see, hear or think of something. Unfortunately, there's really not much in it which you couldn't make up on your own as a gaming person.
That said, imo the best modern (aka 3D with free roaming) and (almost) non violent adventure game is still Beyond Good & Evil with it's photo shooting gameplay.
Combine that with mechanics utilized in the Sherlock Holmes Series, Ace Attorney, La noir, Gone Home etc. and you have plenty of interactions to build with.
It comes down to a thing I'm pondering now and then for over twenty years now: Which (good) non violent core interactions are possible in gaming, meaning, beyond shooting weapons? I maintain a simple list to which I add anytime I see, hear or think of something. Unfortunately, there's really not much in it which you couldn't make up on your own as a gaming person.
That said, imo the best modern (aka 3D with free roaming) and (almost) non violent adventure game is still Beyond Good & Evil with it's photo shooting gameplay.
Combine that with mechanics utilized in the Sherlock Holmes Series, Ace Attorney, La noir, Gone Home etc. and you have plenty of interactions to build with.
"...by accurately picking the right option from multiple choice dialogues that shows you have correctly interpreted their behaviour or examined something in another room."
That idea occurred to me, too, but I dismissed it before I reached your last paragraph - surely it would make for very tedious trial-and-error game-play? The problem would be even worse if their behaviour was subjective or its interpretation depended on the player's own cultural frame of reference.
Trial-and-error gameplay can work when the "trying" is inherently fun but I don't find dialogue trees to be much fun at all.
That idea occurred to me, too, but I dismissed it before I reached your last paragraph - surely it would make for very tedious trial-and-error game-play? The problem would be even worse if their behaviour was subjective or its interpretation depended on the player's own cultural frame of reference.
Trial-and-error gameplay can work when the "trying" is inherently fun but I don't find dialogue trees to be much fun at all.
I thought the Blackwell games (or at least the first one, which is the only one I've played so far) did a good job. They essentially replaced the inventory with a notebook and instead of collecting items you collect names and words (there is an inventory too but it's mostly for story relevant items). It's functionally similar to an inventory but because it's words relating to a specific event you don't have to deal with random nonsense items. Everything has context so you're able to logically work things out.
I agree. I rather liked the blackwell series, My biggest complaint, other then that the first game dumps a lot on you at the beginning, is that the 2nd to last game introduces a great sequel hook....and then the finale decides not to bother using it(there's like one line addressing it near the end and that's all you get).SmallHatLogan said:
Also, I thought the Last Express was a fun adventure game, with a few good action scenes built in, very little inventory puzzle stuff and an interesting save system(where you don't really save. If you mess up, you rewind the clock and do something a different way). It's also one of the few games to make use of the Orient Express as a setting, with all the intrigue that implies.
Yahtzee, have you ever tried a game called Primordia?
It seems the best fit to what you described at the end of your article - a "classic" adventure game that mainly uses non-inventory based puzzles that enhance the story that use logic and observation and with multiple solutions.
Hope you try it.
It seems the best fit to what you described at the end of your article - a "classic" adventure game that mainly uses non-inventory based puzzles that enhance the story that use logic and observation and with multiple solutions.
Hope you try it.
Well Yahtzee.
You said you didn't like the crazy logic train that you'd need to jump on in earlier adventure games?
And now you suggest we all jump on a crazy logic train of dialog options?
"Ah, you have chosen the wrong option, because this person is a narcissist and you needed to praise him to gain his ....."
"Ah, you have chosen the wrong option, because this person is a compulsive liar and you ...."
And so forth and so forth.
You see the point I'm trying to get at?
so instead of the moon logic of the graphics artist we're going to have to deal with the moon logic of the dialog writer.
You said you didn't like the crazy logic train that you'd need to jump on in earlier adventure games?
And now you suggest we all jump on a crazy logic train of dialog options?
"Ah, you have chosen the wrong option, because this person is a narcissist and you needed to praise him to gain his ....."
"Ah, you have chosen the wrong option, because this person is a compulsive liar and you ...."
And so forth and so forth.
You see the point I'm trying to get at?
so instead of the moon logic of the graphics artist we're going to have to deal with the moon logic of the dialog writer.
I tend to think that games make a poor storytelling medium in general. Not that there aren't games with good stories, it's just that there are so many nagging annoyances that keep games from really being an ideal storytelling medium. They are really good at building world to explore and interact with, but the moment you try to shoehorn in the kind of linear focused narrative most people's idea of a story typically requires there usually ends up needing to be sacrifices in either the gameplay or the story for it to work.
But then again maybe trying to make a game tell a story is entirely the opposite thing that adventure games and other heavily narrative based games actually attempt to do. Maybe they should be looked at as stories with gameplay in it rather then the other way around. The thing about storytelling though is to me it should be mostly free from any obstacles that allow you to absorb the story. Gameplay just gets in the way of that. Having to do some silly task to turn a page in a book would be annoying. More to the point, being forced to watch the long boring opening of a movie again every time you wanted to see one particular bit because you couldn't fast-forward or being forced to restart from a checkpoint because you missed a bit of what someone said and couldn't rewind would be annoying too. And these are things even the most gameplay light games just don't let you do. It gets to the point when watching a Let's Play is actually a better experience then playing yourself for some games. You just have more control over how you absorb the story.
Still, a bit of gameplay in a story may have it's place. The best example would be something like Homestuck which is layed out as a series of pages, 99% of which is just long linear comic sections, but has a few flash gameplay segments thrown in as well. In particular the comment Yahtzee made about giving the player choice in reading exposition reminds me strongly of segments of Homestuck where it just lets you guide a character in an enclosed space and converse with other characters. Sometimes there are light puzzle elements, but usually it seems the game segments of Homestuck just exist to allow a lot of exposition or character building without really bogging down the pace for people who don't care that much. And if even the light puzzle segments are too much, the game pages can just be skipped altogether. That way it offers the option of the pacing of gameplay without as many of the headaches, and you are still rewarded through playing with a bit more story data. It seems to me that mixed media experiments like Homestuck is probably the best way to embed games in stories, if that is actually what the author wants to do.
But then again maybe trying to make a game tell a story is entirely the opposite thing that adventure games and other heavily narrative based games actually attempt to do. Maybe they should be looked at as stories with gameplay in it rather then the other way around. The thing about storytelling though is to me it should be mostly free from any obstacles that allow you to absorb the story. Gameplay just gets in the way of that. Having to do some silly task to turn a page in a book would be annoying. More to the point, being forced to watch the long boring opening of a movie again every time you wanted to see one particular bit because you couldn't fast-forward or being forced to restart from a checkpoint because you missed a bit of what someone said and couldn't rewind would be annoying too. And these are things even the most gameplay light games just don't let you do. It gets to the point when watching a Let's Play is actually a better experience then playing yourself for some games. You just have more control over how you absorb the story.
Still, a bit of gameplay in a story may have it's place. The best example would be something like Homestuck which is layed out as a series of pages, 99% of which is just long linear comic sections, but has a few flash gameplay segments thrown in as well. In particular the comment Yahtzee made about giving the player choice in reading exposition reminds me strongly of segments of Homestuck where it just lets you guide a character in an enclosed space and converse with other characters. Sometimes there are light puzzle elements, but usually it seems the game segments of Homestuck just exist to allow a lot of exposition or character building without really bogging down the pace for people who don't care that much. And if even the light puzzle segments are too much, the game pages can just be skipped altogether. That way it offers the option of the pacing of gameplay without as many of the headaches, and you are still rewarded through playing with a bit more story data. It seems to me that mixed media experiments like Homestuck is probably the best way to embed games in stories, if that is actually what the author wants to do.
In one Law & Order game you're given a short tutorial on lawyering and tasked with interrupting the defense/prosecution (can't remember the details) whenever necessary. You also need to provide a reason for the objection (hearsay, argumentative, battering). It was very challenging because you had to pay close attention to everything they said and had a very short time to react.
Another thing I'd like to see is a protagonist who has some kind of limitation or disability like ADHD or autism. It should affect how they communicate and perceive the world. You could e.g. wake up to the alarm on a Friday morning, go to work as usual only to find that you're early, late, at the wrong office or it's actually Saturday and you don't work on Saturdays. You could have a conversation with someone who says one thing but means another, and it's not obvious what they want or why they're upset. Or say something that comes out wrong. If it has to be based on a profession (detectives are to adventure games what zombies are to... well, everything), the protagonist would have to be high-functioning enough to hold down a job.
A linguistics professor once said that reading emails from her dyslexic colleague is like solving riddles. Adventure games need riddles, right?
I like hidden object games because of the casual puzzles. Dominoes, sliding tiles, jigsaw puzzles... Can't really think of a way they could be naturally incorporated into a game though.
I'd like to see puzzles based on real-life situations. Again, the only situation I can think of right now is when my nephew's toy train derailed. "Oops! Bork. Bork." It wasn't much of a challenge to reattach the train cars and put them back on the track. But if I thought about it some more, I'm sure something would pop up.
Another thing I'd like to see is a protagonist who has some kind of limitation or disability like ADHD or autism. It should affect how they communicate and perceive the world. You could e.g. wake up to the alarm on a Friday morning, go to work as usual only to find that you're early, late, at the wrong office or it's actually Saturday and you don't work on Saturdays. You could have a conversation with someone who says one thing but means another, and it's not obvious what they want or why they're upset. Or say something that comes out wrong. If it has to be based on a profession (detectives are to adventure games what zombies are to... well, everything), the protagonist would have to be high-functioning enough to hold down a job.
A linguistics professor once said that reading emails from her dyslexic colleague is like solving riddles. Adventure games need riddles, right?
I like hidden object games because of the casual puzzles. Dominoes, sliding tiles, jigsaw puzzles... Can't really think of a way they could be naturally incorporated into a game though.
I'd like to see puzzles based on real-life situations. Again, the only situation I can think of right now is when my nephew's toy train derailed. "Oops! Bork. Bork." It wasn't much of a challenge to reattach the train cars and put them back on the track. But if I thought about it some more, I'm sure something would pop up.
I've always seen it as; the more the game goes into story driving, the more the design and game play suffers.
Me and my mates once tried making films into a games while trying to leave all the story intact. We thought of our favourite story's in films and attempted to add interesting game play elements that could work throughout the whole thing. Nothing we thought of functioned all that well unfortunately. It seems you have to simplify the story or cut it off into different sections for it work.
You will have to simplify it, but that doesn't mean the quality of the story has to drop. Think of it as a quality over quantity thing. If you could come up with some big clever story idea's to uncover, it should still have a big impact as long as you know how to execute it well.
Berserk would make an excellent game.
Me and my mates once tried making films into a games while trying to leave all the story intact. We thought of our favourite story's in films and attempted to add interesting game play elements that could work throughout the whole thing. Nothing we thought of functioned all that well unfortunately. It seems you have to simplify the story or cut it off into different sections for it work.
You will have to simplify it, but that doesn't mean the quality of the story has to drop. Think of it as a quality over quantity thing. If you could come up with some big clever story idea's to uncover, it should still have a big impact as long as you know how to execute it well.
Berserk would make an excellent game.