Prince Phillip dies age 99

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Apr 18, 2020
6,783
1,425
118
Country
United States
Gender
Male
You're talking to Americans, none of us care about the rules of succession.
Most of us don't care about succession rules in our own government and couldn't name anyone in the chain beyond the Vice President anyway(Speaker of the House is the next one, in case you're wondering).
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
3,184
949
118
Country
United States
That a significant chunk of people in the USA give a single shit about the British monarchy outside of the desire to dunk on it is baffling to me. Our most patriotic holiday celebrates the war to get away from it.

Hell, the most common secular national holiday in the world is Fuck the British Empire Day
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Apr 18, 2020
6,783
1,425
118
Country
United States
Gender
Male
I was under the impression that Americans loved the Royal Family.
A lot of us do, though I suspect it's an extension of celebrity worship a lot of people tend to fall into it and the British Royals are basically hereditary celebrities at this point(I know there's more nuance to it then that but most people wouldn't know or care. The average American maybe knows the UK has a prime minister and a parliament but good luck if they know anything more than that). They have big weddings and live in a castle and are rich and famous and that's more than enough for a lot of people to be fascinating.

Also, the Drama. Because nothing is more fun than watching total strangers drama play out in the tabloids and the news.

I am not a sociologist nor do I play on TV, so take that as you will.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
2,068
1,198
118
Australia
A lot of us do, though I suspect it's an extension of celebrity worship a lot of people tend to fall into it and the British Royals are basically hereditary celebrities at this point(I know there's more nuance to it then that but most people wouldn't know or care. The average American maybe knows the UK has a prime minister and a parliament but good luck if they know anything more than that). They have big weddings and live in a castle and are rich and famous and that's more than enough for a lot of people to be fascinating.

Also, the Drama. Because nothing is more fun than watching total strangers drama play out in the tabloids and the news.

I am not a sociologist nor do I play on TV, so take that as you will.
I like Harry and William. I mean as celebrities go, at least they have useful skills.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 20, 2020
2,918
403
88
Country
United Kingdom
I like Harry and William. I mean as celebrities go, at least they have useful skills.
Blowing up brown people with toy helicopters, hosting sex parties, or dressing up as Nazis?

Don't get me wrong, those are definitely skills. Most of us wouldn't put them on our CV though.
 
Last edited:

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
2,068
1,198
118
Australia
Blowing up brown people with toy helicopters, hosting sex parties, or dressing up as Nazis?

Don't get me wrong, those are definitely skills. Most of us wouldn't put them on our CV though.
Well the first one qualifies as a skill. I'd describe the sex parties one as more of a talent; like any chump can organise a party but making it a sexy party takes some clever doings. Dressing up in a Nazi uniform I describe as abject stupidity - that one definately stays off the CV.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,062
3,161
118
A lot of us do, though I suspect it's an extension of celebrity worship a lot of people tend to fall into it and the British Royals are basically hereditary celebrities at this point(I know there's more nuance to it then that but most people wouldn't know or care. The average American maybe knows the UK has a prime minister and a parliament but good luck if they know anything more than that). They have big weddings and live in a castle and are rich and famous and that's more than enough for a lot of people to be fascinating.

Also, the Drama. Because nothing is more fun than watching total strangers drama play out in the tabloids and the news.

I am not a sociologist nor do I play on TV, so take that as you will.
There is still an fascinating mystique about royalty, which even American youngsters are indoctrinated into via nursery rhymes, fairy tales and Disney. The fact they're basically just hangovers of the middle ages kept around for nebulous, misty-eyed notions of national tradition often doesn't quite strike Americans in the same way because they don't experience them having any real impact.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Apr 29, 2020
2,939
317
88
There is still an fascinating mystique about royalty, which even American youngsters are indoctrinated into via nursery rhymes, fairy tales and Disney. The fact they're basically just hangovers of the middle ages kept around for nebulous, misty-eyed notions of national tradition often doesn't quite strike Americans in the same way because they don't experience them having any real impact.
I think the royalties still serve as a sort of anchor for what remains of a national identity, similarly as Americans have their flag-waving patriotism. It's not that dissimilar. It are rituals to placate the alienation of a society that resembles the anonymous mass at an airport where people quickly pass you by. You could argue the concept of a nation state itself is nebulous and that these rituals give it shape by preserving a sort of continuity. Something the modern era in particular is in need of. What keeps a country together is often no more than just a few symbols.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
7,963
2,247
118
I think the royalties still serve as a sort of anchor for what remains of a national identity, similarly as Americans have their flag-waving patriotism.
Thing is, that "flag-waving patriotism" is fucking terrible. The people who that shit actually matters to, are almost without fail, the most shitbaggy type of people you can come across. So I don't really see how comparing it is a good thing? Maybe you're not comparing it as a form of defense, just noting the similarities, and if that's the case, I would agree. Doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing though. If your national identity requires supporting an outdated, superstitiously rooted, caste system, where people are just expected to defer to these people because of their self-declared superiority, well, then frankly, fuck that national identity. They aren't special, in any way. Nothing they did that was good, had anything to do with some "royal" aspect to their family, but a lot of the bad they've done, can likely be traced back to the system that supports them, and elevates them on a platform, making them beyond reproach and consequences.
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Apr 18, 2020
6,783
1,425
118
Country
United States
Gender
Male
There is still an fascinating mystique about royalty, which even American youngsters are indoctrinated into via nursery rhymes, fairy tales and Disney. The fact they're basically just hangovers of the middle ages kept around for nebulous, misty-eyed notions of national tradition often doesn't quite strike Americans in the same way because they don't experience them having any real impact.
To be fair, Americans have the Western and the Founding Fathers that serve as a sort of similar mythology. Not to say either were myth but the popular imagining often ends up being a bit larger than life and not quite real and heavily flanderized(People who somehow think Americans were united at the beginning, when like 30% activiely supported independence, with the other 2 thirds being loyal or in the middle respectively, and political parties happened almost immediately, even if not in the same forms).

And to get back to the original point, the fact that America doesn't have Royalty/Nobels(lets leave aside certain wealthy families, people and corporations who effectively fill the same role as far as power and influence is concerned), it does make castles and princes/princesses more exotic and interesting to us. Like when you can't just drive an house to see a no shit medieval castle or 400 year old cathedral, it makes it seem more special.
 
Last edited:

Hades

Elite Member
May 7, 2020
1,105
341
88
Country
The Netherlands
To be fair, Americans have the Western and the Founding Fathers that serve as a sort of similar mythology. Not to say either were myth but the popular imagining often ends up being a bit larger than life and not quite real. Though that just makes castles and nobles/royals more exotic to us.
I'd be quite disillusioned with the founding fathers if I had ever put them on a pedestal. Not just for the whole slavery thing but their system also forced America into a bloody civil war and their decisions regarding the electoral college forced Trump into office despite him having lost the vote, and despite Trump being the sort of politician their system was supposed to avoid.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Apr 18, 2020
6,783
1,425
118
Country
United States
Gender
Male
I'd be quite disillusioned with the founding fathers if I had ever put them on a pedestal. Not just for the whole slavery thing but their system also forced America into a bloody civil war and their decisions regarding the electoral college forced Trump into office despite him having lost the vote, and despite Trump being the sort of politician their system was supposed to avoid.
Yeah, they were flawed men, despite their talents. The punt on Slavery was considered a necessary evil at the moment but IIRC even at the time there were people who knew it would continue to be a significant problem as long as it remained unresolved. There was also a substantial portion of the nation that was either supportive of slavery or at least not supportive of abolition of slavery to force the issue, considering it took decades for the anti-slavery movement to build up enough steam to cause the stark division which eventually lead to Civil War in the 1860(and even that simmered pretty hot for like a decade or so before it actually boiled over). The electoral college was an idea that made a lot more sense at the time and....really never got fixed and continues to embarrass us because it's damn near impossible to change.

And unfortunately, the founders apparently never envisioned someone like Trump would ever be supported by enough of congress to get as much traction as he has, that Country would be put over party, but now we know that was a flawed assumption at best.

I'm not trying to make excuses for any of this. There were a lot of compromises to be made to even get the constitution ratified in the first place and that was after 8 years of the articles of confederation the US originally tried(to put it simply, they did not work).
 
Last edited:

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
7,963
2,247
118
To be fair, Americans have the Western and the Founding Fathers that serve as a sort of similar mythology. Not to say either were myth
They really were myth though, or at least the common person understanding of them. Not to mention actual myths of things like Paul Bunyon and his big blue ox Babe. Johnny Appleseed,....that iron smith guy, black guy, whose name escapes me. They copied it for the Superman Man of Steel comic after the death of superman. John Henry Irons! That's it. Those things, or at least the stories that have persisted about them, whether they were real people or not, ARE myths. And regarding the founding fathers, and other similar people, you have the whole washington and the cherry tree story, the various crazy things attributed to abe lincoln, etc.

So I do think it's valid to call them myths, similar to the ones told about european people from centuries earlier. They just have a different flavor to them, but they are still all mythmaking and lionizing of people and concepts, that embody the national ideal at that time.

The problem, as I see it anyway, is that weaving those things into the cultural identity, fundamentally roots your identity...in bullshit. It's things that are just simply impossible, yet because so many people have decided they mean something, they become defensive when you criticize them, or point out "you know, this thing, on top of being utter bullshit, is equally offensive/problematic" they kneejerk to "well you must hate X then if you think that's a lie!"

To me, the royalty worship, and founding father worship, are exactly the same.
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Apr 29, 2020
2,939
317
88
Thing is, that "flag-waving patriotism" is fucking terrible. The people who that shit actually matters to, are almost without fail, the most shitbaggy type of people you can come across. So I don't really see how comparing it is a good thing? Maybe you're not comparing it as a form of defense, just noting the similarities, and if that's the case, I would agree. Doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing though. If your national identity requires supporting an outdated, superstitiously rooted, caste system, where people are just expected to defer to these people because of their self-declared superiority, well, then frankly, fuck that national identity. They aren't special, in any way. Nothing they did that was good, had anything to do with some "royal" aspect to their family, but a lot of the bad they've done, can likely be traced back to the system that supports them, and elevates them on a platform, making them beyond reproach and consequences.
With patriotism I don't necessarily mean redneck maga supporters or anything but rather that national pride or 'exceptionalism' if you will runs deep in American society. I don't think I've ever been to another country with so many national flags wherever you go. I think these rituals need to compensate for an existential insecurity about what keeps a nation together similarly as the age old European monarchies have done since after the French revolution. They haven't been relevant since Louis XVI got decapitated more than two centuries ago. Yet they still serve a symbolic function. What keeps a nation together are either rituals and symbols and a myhtologized past like Dalisclock said or some 'common enemy'. Whatever other connection is there between an anonymous mass of people?
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
7,963
2,247
118
With patriotism I don't necessarily mean redneck maga supporters or anything but rather that national pride or 'exceptionalism' if you will runs deep in American society. I don't think I've ever been to another country with so many national flags wherever you go.
I agree, but my point is that they really don't matter to anyone BUT the maga chucklefucks. All of my friends are liberals, but the majority of the people i work with, coworkers and clients are almost without fail, conservative. And there is a very distinct line in who is most likely to be wearing an american flag, have an american flag tattooed on their fucking flesh, or driving a vehicle with a flag on it. And it's not the liberals. If I'm randomly talking to someone, and they start talking about america, or the country, or anything remotely connected to the national pride you are referring to, they're conservative. It's a pretty clear aspect of the right, and they've fused it with their religion, and their nationalism, to the point where they are the same thing for all intents and purposes.

And I agree they have a function, my point is that I think it's a BAD function. I've yet to see any positive effect of the various lines in the sand we have drawn for ourselves. Yes it's similar to the royalty aspect of europe, but the time period where that was important, was horrible. And it's horrible in the US too. Pretty much anywhere really.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
2,922
279
88
Blowing up brown people with toy helicopters, hosting sex parties, or dressing up as Nazis?

Don't get me wrong, those are definitely skills. Most of us wouldn't put them on our CV though.
William actually put his flying skills to use as part of the coastguard.


Thing is, that "flag-waving patriotism" is fucking terrible. The people who that shit actually matters to, are almost without fail, the most shitbaggy type of people you can come across. So I don't really see how comparing it is a good thing? Maybe you're not comparing it as a form of defense, just noting the similarities, and if that's the case, I would agree. Doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing though. If your national identity requires supporting an outdated, superstitiously rooted, caste system, where people are just expected to defer to these people because of their self-declared superiority, well, then frankly, fuck that national identity. They aren't special, in any way. Nothing they did that was good, had anything to do with some "royal" aspect to their family, but a lot of the bad they've done, can likely be traced back to the system that supports them, and elevates them on a platform, making them beyond reproach and consequences.
I dunno the "No nations at all" people seem to have their far share of obnoxious people too.

As for the Royals well technically if they believe the UK government is working to actively harm the people it can dissolve the government and force it to be replaced. The armed services are also loyal to the crown ultimately and not the government just in case there ever is a need to depose the government. Also the PM is technically accountable to the crown and should the crown wish it the PM can be called in to explain their actions and justify them to the crown. Yes it may seem like a caste system but it works out to essentially separate out power as the actual powers of the crown to govern are very limited but they can hold accountable a government of the people as such.

Also the USA has a caste system but it's all about the money while in the UK basically that caste system has a cap where money really doesn't get you to climb he caste system.
 

The Rogue Wolf

Stealthy Carnivore
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
11,621
1,091
118
Stalking the Digital Tundra
Gender
✅
I was under the impression that Americans loved the Royal Family.
Sure, we love 'em, we just don't get 'em.

...that iron smith guy, black guy, whose name escapes me.
"John Henry was a steel-drivin' man...." A story in which we celebrate a black man who literally worked himself to death in a dangerous job.

To be fair, Americans have the Western....
More accurately, we have the spaghetti Western films of the '50s, which almost invariably feature a white man in a white hat standing in a cloud of gunsmoke while the bandito crumples to the ground, therefore proving the divine righteousness of the gunslinger who "brings his brand of law to the frontier" (and then rides off with the lady in distress).

And there is a very distinct line in who is most likely to be wearing an american flag, have an american flag tattooed on their fucking flesh, or driving a vehicle with a flag on it.
Or even better, wearing flag-print underwear....

Also the PM is technically accountable to the crown and should the crown wish it the PM can be called in to explain their actions and justify them to the crown.
Didn't the Queen call BoJo to the carpet for Brexit? And didn't he basically lie to her face?