PRISM - Where are all the protests?

[Stryc9]

Two reasons really. The first being as some other people have stated they just down care. More than a small handful of Americans are willing to trade certain freedoms for the perception of security.

The second being that the people who do care already knew this was happening, there were some protests against The (un)Patriot Act when it was first signed into law and they died out pretty quickly after. This came as not surprise to a lot of people and the only reason that it's really gaining any attention now is because Obama was already having some difficulties with a few other scandals and this was another chance for the news media to stir up some more ratings by pinning this on him.

 

[chadachada123]

I think it's partially because those of us that have been screaming about it for years already knew about it (Libertarians, Ron-Paul/ACTUAL conservatives, the very few social Democrats that haven't sold themselves out to their party's bullshit, most socialists, etc), while those that are just finding out about it have either apathy or a defensive posture because they don't want to admit that their government IS as corrupt as it obviously has been for decades.

I feel that many people don't want to admit that the Libertarians/etc were completely right in saying that voting for standard Republicans *and* Democrats is literally voting your freedom away.

It sucks saying "I told you so," when it comes at the cost of, well, my civil liberties.

 

[Kirke]

Snip

Okay, while I agree on most points, I must point out that the US is no ally of Sweden. We stayed neutral for 200 years and while I cannot say that we still are, the Swedish troops abroad are on UN missions.

Another problem here is also that US citizens are not the only ones affected. People all around the world are being monitored, regardless of local laws. The utter disregard for the rights of citizens of other nations by the NSA is quite frankly disgusting. What is even more disgusting is the lack of response from other nations.

 

[tofulove]

i am very morally against prism, but at the same time i want to play devils advocate just a little bit for fun.

im not talking about the justification of we need it to stop the terrorist. no im talking about if the worse thing i have to worry about is some one sitting in a room listening and watching me have phone sex, we as a society have came a long way. in the industrial revolution the worse thing we had to worry about was a long list, mutilated limbs, damaged lungs, working 14 hours a day 7 days a week and not making enough to feed my kids. in medieval society the worse thing to worry about was also a long list, being forced to fight in some lords war i care nothing about, being raped and pillage by said lord or another lord cause they wanted some thing i have, a huge portion of my children dieing at birth.

life sucks, and this is a gross abuse of our government. if you take a step back and look at the big picture you will see prism is bad, but it ant rapping you and steeling your food yet. we must be ever vigilant, because if they could get away with it you could bet your ass they would.

 

[triggrhappy94]

People have know about programs like this since '06.
Everyone's suspected some major snooping, Snowden just confirmed those suspicions.
The lack of outrage just goes to show that the majority of people don't care that much. Not a position I'm particularly fond of, but that's how it goes in a democracy.

Honestly, the real debate should be how there was no public debate about this back when it started. It all got passed legally, but behind closed doors so the public didn't know. They say they do this kind of stuff secretly so terrorists don't catch on to it, but it actually doesn't make a difference. Everyone knows.

 

[triggrhappy94]

"Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither."

-Benjamin Franklin


Deshi Basara.

I always found that quote interesting. It's page one Poli-Sci to know that you have to give up some freedoms to live in a functioning society.

I gave up the freedom of firing guns off wildly while standing naked in my front yard to enjoy the level of security and comfort suburbia offers. Does that mean I deserve neither? No. It means I can't have both.

To bring things back to the thread topic: I'm not saying PRISM is the price of modern society, but there's a debate to be about what modern society should look like.

 

[O maestre]

There's nothing I can do about this. That's the big issue. I want to say that I could rise up against our government, and gather a bunch of followers to my cause. I'd like to say that I could build a protest, that shook the very core of our nation and changed things. But, I can't actually do that. I'm a mentally unstable, beyond poverty individual. I live my entire life off the charity of others because I can't actually hold a job and the like. What this means, is that were I to raise an army of people, and fight against this, with the information that they have mined on me, I would immediately be discredited. I would have my entire following of like minded people turned against me on the grounds that I am mentally unstable. I couldn't go places to gather people as I lack the funds to do so, and all I can do is ***** about it on the internet. What's worse, is that after it all fails, I will be arrested on grounds of public disorder. Charged for numerous crimes, and disappear off the face of the earth because I tried.

This is how most people that aren't drowned out by apathy feel. Not fear of terrorism, fear of government backlash. When someone that puts all the info out for the world to see, gets allegations of treason? Treason is still punishable by death. This is the sad reality that we live in. This is the sad case of the country that I live in.

I want to leave. I want to follow the advice of many people who say "You don't like it? Get the fuck out!" because I feel like my opinion and how I'm personally affected doesn't matter anymore. This PRISM thing does affect me. Personally. I have a very strong desire to learn damn near everything I can, and I am personally probably on more than a few government watch lists for things like "How to build a nuclear bomb" being in my search history, tied to my google account, and things like downloading the Anarchist Cookbook. Does this mean I am a terrorist? No. It's pure curiosity, and I feel that one of these pieces of knowledge might come in handy one day. If someone fired a nuke, and it landed right in front of me, somehow without having the impact set the trigger off (Maybe it's a timer.) guess what? I actually know how to completely disarm a nuclear warhead, with the only damage being done to me, is that I will probably be sterile for a few years. God only knows when something that I know will come back and save everyone. (Totally unlikely scenario, but hey, good to know if that does happen, I can save millions of people)

So yeah. I'm furious about this. I shouldn't have to feel like I need to be careful because I am on a government watch list. (I've started using TOR lately, and am probably going to be switching my email accounts. I've stopped using Google all the time, and have almost fully swapped to DuckDuckGo for searches. But sadly these habits aren't fully ingrained in my habits yet.)

The point of sad bit of rambling is this. If I could do something, I would. If I could leave the country, and live my life elsewhere as a way of showing my disdain for the government, I would be on the next flight. But I don't have any job skills, I have massive amounts of debt, and I have plenty of mental issues that make me nothing but a burden upon any country I reside in. I'm quite possibly not alone in this either. Because a protest against this will only teach the government one thing. Be more careful next time.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I am not alone.

Oh yeah, and also, so many people have so much apathy to this thing it's incredible. Seriously. The media sweeping it under the rug. The government witch hunt. Which celebrity is marrying whom. This place is the worst. I swear. (Lucky me. I just so happen to be residing in what I feel is the worst state of this terrible country. Also, I called this country terrible. I'm a terrorist now according to a lot of Americans.)

/incomprehensible rant

lol thats cute, you actually think TOR is secure? you know who made TOR? the US navy you know who finances TOR? the US state department! TOR is a joke, the only safe method of communication is closed shell, but then you probably wouldn't be able to connect to the web at large. TOR use to be useful for subversive activity, but now all that is there is pedo porn and drug markets. The only safe way to use TOR is from a router free of a commercial or private ISP and instead use it from, ironically a public one. Most exit nodes are run buy the govt, make sure that the traffic cant get traced to you specifically. I think the main purpose of TOR was for CIA or FBI spooks and whistle blowers. The fact that criminals use it is a side effect, because as long as you are not running an exit node they cannot use it to prosecute you, evidence from TOR is automatically dismissed... unless it is terrorist activity.

The anarchist cookbook is somewhat outdated, especially all the notes on phreaking and other obsolete forms of hacking. While the bomb recipes are still useful getting hold of the material is what is difficult, Breivik the mad man from Norway, spent 9 years to get what he needed, very few people can actually manufacture IEDs without considerable resources and contacts.

 

[O maestre]

Ever bothered to read what you agree to when you sign up for Skype, Facebook and the like?

You agree that you're being monitored all the time and that you give up all rights of the stuff you post. Can't really see how it's bad when Uncle Sam peeks into stuff the users have already agreed on letting everyone see anyway.

the monitoring was for commercial purposes only, not stuff that could get you prosecuted, are you forgetting that the NSA director lied under oath about this? so no, nobody agreed to this... sadly nobody is doing anything about it

 

[Anti-Robot Man]

Under normal circumstances I'd say this is nothing new, the American government pulls shit like this on its own country all the time.

But I live in England. What the actual flying intestine-skipping fuck gives the American government the right to pry through my stuff?

Well the UK's equivalent agency, the GCHQ, somehow harvests even more data on it's citizens (and shares this with the USA for good measure).

Details here
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/21/gchq_nsa_spooks/

As to the OP,

Most people don't bother protesting at all, those who do usually feel a bit more disenfranchised than the rest, or have a personal stake in the matter. You see more protests over pay disputes and taxation than loss of hard won liberties. At the end of the day this comes down to basics: protesting is almost never effective at accomplishing anything (at best it may cast some brief attention on an issue), and two, a lot of people are far more preoccupied with their daily lives, not even all that selfish they just have more pressing concerns (habeas corpus being shat over is of little consequence to most people unless their on the other end of it). Hell, in Britain a lot of the media seems to actively campaign against rights (except freedom of the press of course).

 

[RJ Dalton]

America is basically the only nation in the world that considers freedom a huge part of its national identity, so much so that they've named themselves "the land of the free".

Here in eagle-land, we only use that ironically because fun. You don't like 'Murica? YOU HATE FREEDOM!

And personally... I don't give a shit. Look, logically I know I should give a shit but I don't. I'm not a terrorist. What's the worst that could have happened? They saw my browser history? And deep down, if they stopped a single terrorist attack and saved one life, then I'm not concerned

What can they do to you? Oh, a few things you might not be expecting.

http://occupiedmuslim.tumblr.com/post/52590848794/i-live-in-a-country-generally-assumed-to-be-a

 

[Superlative]

"Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither."

-Benjamin Franklin


Deshi Basara.

I always found that quote interesting. It's page one Poli-Sci to know that you have to give up some freedoms to live in a functioning society.

I gave up the freedom of firing guns off wildly while standing naked in my front yard to enjoy the level of security and comfort suburbia offers. Does that mean I deserve neither? No. It means I can't have both.

To bring things back to the thread topic: I'm not saying PRISM is the price of modern society, but there's a debate to be about what modern society should look like.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think part of the issue with PRISM is the sheer amount of evil it could unleash if unchecked. In exchange for possibly intercepting an attack we create a system which could justify the imprisonment of nearly any American. if you monitor a person's internet usage and electronic communications long enough you are going to find out they are either breaking some minor law, not informing on someone who it could be argued they know is, or are a few degrees of separation from some unsavory character. Do you like anime, your suddenly a pedophile. do you play violent games, then your a terrorist in training.

I think the reason there are not protests over this is because most Americans exspect this to go before the suprime court and lose superultramega hard. the fourth amendment to the US constitution forbids illegal search and seisre and what is such vast hording of information on people not even suspected of a crime but an illegal search.

 

[Cecilo]

If you wish to do something productive and live in the US, or are a citizen of the US. I would recommend calling, NOT EMAILING. (Visiting them in person would be even better, it adds an element of humanity to the conversation). Your representative.

You can find out who that is, if you don't already know. And asking them to support the Bill going through Congress.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c113:1:./temp/~c1132snd0a::

You can see the rough draft of the bill there. Complaining on forums will not help you. Asking where the protests are will not help you. Please, call or visit your representative and ask them to support this, or just in general ask them to oppose the NSA. It doesn't require that much effort.

Here. http://whoismyrepresentative.com/

You can find your representative there. Go on. Do it.

 

[elthingo]

America is basically the only nation in the world that considers freedom a huge part of its national identity, so much so that they've named themselves "the land of the free".

Realize I am late to the party OP, just wanted to point out this sentence contains so much nonsense that had to intervene:

- Where the fuck you get USA is the only nation in the world that considers freedom a part of it's national identity? Most modern states that were recently colonies or were governed by non democratic regimes do that; I would say it's pretty freaking clear given the contemporary events that countries like Egypt, Nicaragua or Czechoslovakia care way more for freedom than USA given than in the last fifty years they have fought harder and bleed more for it.

- You do realize that, again, most republics that were recently colonies have a line where they call themselves land of the free or of liberty or saying they will defend their land and shit to the last man, right? See the Republic of Cyprus hymn or the Mexican hymn as examples. USA just have had better PR last century.

In conclusion, that sentence seem to be BS and to be based on Hollywood movies to judge the character of nations. Not sure how wise that is, I would recommend social sciences and in specific history over that.

As the rest of the post is dependent on the veracity of those lines, and I think have proven them to be crap, I digress.

Well, at least the Egypt part of what you said is complete BS. Freedom isn't a major part of Egyptian culture. Our celebrations of the independence war with the brits are absolutely tiny, and barely focus on the whole "freedom" part of it at all. The same goes for most aspects of Egyptian society, really. It's pretty sad, but over the last 70 years or so of dictatorial rule, nationalism has grabbed a much, much bigger role in Egyptian society than freedom, so much so that only SOME of the young people who protested actually did it for freedom; the whole regime change thing was like 2/3 economics.

In fact, a decently sized part of the adult population preferred Mubarak because, basically, "Sure, we weren't free, but crime wasn't too bad and things seemed to be improving".

Freedom might become more important in Egypt over the coming decades, but first people will have to figure out what freedom really is, since they don't really have a particularly good understanding of it, not having had it for the last few thousands years or so.

How do I know this? I'm Egyptian by birth. I live in Sweden, but I've spent enough time in Egypt to have a pretty solid understanding of all this. I don't know about Czecholsovakia and Nicaragua, but I doubt they have the same inflated idea of freedom as the Americans do.

I could go in depth over why freedom is a pretty big deal in American society (well, a very nebulous, loosely defined, off brand and historically somewhat... stupid type of freedom) and has been since the early days of the US, but that would take a while. You should probably just go a bit more in depth into their history, especially the beginning.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Snip

Okay, while I agree on most points, I must point out that the US is no ally of Sweden. We stayed neutral for 200 years and while I cannot say that we still are, the Swedish troops abroad are on UN missions.

Another problem here is also that US citizens are not the only ones affected. People all around the world are being monitored, regardless of local laws. The utter disregard for the rights of citizens of other nations by the NSA is quite frankly disgusting. What is even more disgusting is the lack of response from other nations.

I mean, not officially, but I think if Sweden were ever hit hard by some kind of trouble the US and many other countries would not hesitate to help out. Neutral or not, we can still be friends.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Americans no longer remember what freedom is, and even if they did they would happily trade it for "protection" against whatever scary strawman their government picked at the drop of the hat. They would only protest against something that threatens their comfort or wealth.

 

[Devil's Due]

People are living in denial with their "If you have nothing to hide" deal. It's pathetic, really. They have no idea how badly this will be abused. I do.

I was in training to get a commision as an officer of the United States Air Force (through ROTC) and later took a break to gather my head since I've been with the AF for a long time. I was scheduling appointments to go back and resume my process and possibly finally contract in when this broke. After researching it a bit and finding out how the government isn't even denying it but swatting people away with "lolwtf u gonna do?" kind of remarks, I am currently refusing to wear any military uniform again and will not be rejoining ROTC. I cannot serve a government that tramples on the very oath that I would have taken. In the US military, we are required to protect the constitution above all others. They broke the 4th Amendment. They broke the oath. So I refuse to rejoin.

Will it make a difference? Nope, they won't even notice any more than any other cadet leaving for whatever reason, they'll make their quota some other way, but I feel in my heart it was the right move. My entire family served and it was my turn and all I knew, yet I gave up the chance willingly because of this.

Currently, I'm still going to refuse to ever wear any military uniform until the Supreme Court strikes this down from the ACLU lawsuit. I trust the Judicial branch since lately they've done mostly great in keeping civil liberties (mostly). If they fail, I have no idea what I would do knowing all three branches of government failed me. I'd actually consider renouncing my citizenship and moving to Iceland, Germany or any other country that protects their citizens rights.

I love America, I want to serve still and help, but I refuse to help a corrupt government. For now, as I said, I'm waiting and just trying to get my degree. Waiting for the checks and balances to happen. If it happens, I'll rejoin immediately. If not, I have some new languages to learn (which I will fail utterly, sigh)

EDIT: I guess I'm on the NSA's list now, if I wasn't already for my avatar. Heh.

 

[Tanakh]

-snip-

Good for you bro, then you know that right now there is a black bloc in egypt strong enough to simultaneously paralyze 8 cities and which is made of loosely united individuals fighting for political and religious freedom. Said group has both made a bigger impact in it's country and suffered more losses in this last months than any recent freedom fighting group from USA that I can recall, which is exactly what I said in my post.

As for "freedom" in the current american vocabulary, it is just a market speech word, doesn't mean a thing, same as "innovation" or "immersion" in the video game industry it's big in selling shit and making speeches, that doesn't make it a big deal. In the beginning? It was pretty easy to define, economic, legislative and religious freedom; though the whole story of the american revolution is quite overblown IMO, it was just one movement of the world chess being played between Spain, France and Britain.

 

[elthingo]

-snip-

Good for you bro, then you know that right now there is a black bloc in egypt strong enough to simultaneously paralyze 8 cities and which is made of loosely united individuals fighting for political and religious freedom. Said group has both made a bigger impact in it's country and suffered more losses in this last months than any recent freedom fighting group from USA that I can recall, which is exactly what I said in my post.

As for "freedom" in the current american vocabulary, it is just a market speech word, doesn't mean a thing, same as "innovation" or "immersion" in the video game industry it's big in selling shit and making speeches, that doesn't make it a big deal. In the beginning? It was pretty easy to define, economic, legislative and religious freedom; though the whole story of the american revolution is quite overblown IMO, it was just one movement of the world chess being played between Spain, France and Britain.

Yes, and then there's the hundreds of young people who sacrificed their lives or got permanent injuries in the actual revolution when they stood up against the (literal) police state. This isn't Egyptian society though, it's a corner of Egyptian society. The rest of it is still learning what freedom is, since it's a brand new thing for them. A decent section of said society is actually against it. I wouldn't be surprised if these are as numerous, if not much more numerous, than the ones fighting tooth and nail to establish true freedom in the country and keep the islamists from taking a big, strict sharia law shaped shit on its future. But like I said, that is changing, fortunately.

But yes, Egyptians have in the last 2 years sacrificed a hundred times more for a vague idea of freedom that they haven't truly experienced in the past than Americans have for the last few decades. You're right there.

Anyway, what I was trying to say is, it's a much bigger part of US society than Egyptian society, or, well, the word anyway. Hence why I expected someone to go "Hey, the NSA did what? That's not freedom! Let's do all we can to stop this!" or something, even if their concept of freedom is a bit, well, strange and not too well defined, often being used as a meaningless buzzword.

And yeah, the revolution was, all in all, quite stupid and is being glorified something awful in the US. It's the ideals they formed years after the revolution and pursued for a long time that I was talking about, that all white men (emphasis on WHITE and MEN) should be completely free and independent of everything, even the government(except slaves, i guess. They don't get any freedom, and it's totally fine being dependent on their work apparantly...). This came to affect modern US society.

 

[xDarc]

This is the kind of stuff that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists have been raving about for ages, except this is real.

Well, there's that, but then it's not just conspiracy theorists saying it. People have known, or at least suspected, the US government of doing such things for years, the conspiracy theorists just exaggerate it.

Plenty of examples of the US doing this sort of thing in the past, nobody is that surprised to learn they are still doing it.

It's all real, and people who say otherwise are always conspiracy theorists. It's much, much worse- what they are running damage control on right now is just the tip of the ice berg. Look up what ex-air force intelligence officer Russell Tice has to say about it; they are collecting EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME.

That's why they have a data center in Utah that holds more than a TRILLION TERABYTES.

Tice takes it a step further, he says they are using this information to black mail elected and appointed government officials. Is it really a stretch? We are already know someone up on high is sicking the IRS on people they disagree with politically.

As far as why people aren't protesting, my guesses:

-Obama has tapped into many of the grass roots organizations that used to put demonstrations together during the Bush years to aide him in both elections; you'd have to imagine they'd be pretty reluctant to turn on Obama.

-Birth rates have dropped to record lows; not enough young people who are the core demographic for protest movements.

-Of the young people we do have, many don't have jobs or cars and they focus quite a bit on social media. They're largely invisible offline.

I've talked to people about this, they either laugh or they just stare at me and don't know what to say. I haven't met a single person yet who will look me in the eye and tell me honestly it's for our own good. I guess people feel powerless. As for me, I find myself in a common position; I'd love to help, fight the power and all that, but I have a mortgage and girlfriend/future wife to look after.

Back in my younger days, I was out there choking on tear gas at WTO/TABD demonstrations with the best of them. Those days are over, I have things to lose now. I suppose I'd help out if there were something local, but I'd be really nervous about getting arrested at any sort of demonstration. If your employer finds out, you're toast.

 

[Do4600]

The problem here is that within the next 40 years it won't matter, privacy will be a thing of the past for everybody. Everybody will be on the grid and everybody will know everything else about everybody else. I feel this is an inevitable conclusion. At some point everything you own will have bundles of sensors so the object can react to you. For instance, your cellphone right now could probably be operated from the across the room by waving your hand and speaking, this will only become more common until the point when the paint on your walls will be able to tell your mood and change the colors and patterns because of embedded nano processors and sensors.

In the end every object you own will know more about you than you remember about yourself. It could very easily get to the point where the information your objects have collected about you becomes greater than the sum of the information that makes up your physical body.

So the NSA is spying on us? Everything we own is spying on us. The phone company tracks our calls, ISPs track our traffic, our cars track where we drive, stores track our buying habits and Google tailors ads directly to our perceived interests. Everything is tracked, the only thing that changes is the intent of the person getting and collating the information.

So what's worse, the NSA seeing I'm not a terrorist or Amazon trying to sell me grow lights whenever I'm on Youtube because I bought a hydrometer from them 10 months ago?

As far as impeaching the president and having early elections goes, it won't matter, in this county we have two parties that have nearly the exact same approach to every issue except social policies, so yes, we could get a new president who bans abortion but he wouldn't do a damn thing about the patriot act. Also the senate would still be gridlocked, conservatives have essentially shut down our government by refusing to agree to any policy on any grounds, so when we're in danger of defaulting on our loans because we haven't passed a annual budget in nearly 19 months you really think a protest and possible riot is really going to change peoples minds about spying on us to prevent some people from organizing terrorist actions...you know....like riots.

Also, what really is the point of privacy? The point of freedom is obvious, but I suppose I don't quite get the point of privacy. Even if somebody was peeping at me right now, what's the point? What could possibly be exposed about me that would be so much worse than what could be exposed about anybody else?

Everybody has dirty little secrets and habits, everybody, and in this country people don't seem to give nearly as much of a shit about them as they did 30 years ago.