PRISM - Where are all the protests?

[elthingo]

Anyway, what I was trying to say is, it's a much bigger part of US society than Egyptian society, or, well, the word anyway. Hence why I expected someone to go "Hey, the NSA did what? That's not freedom! Let's do all we can to stop this!" or something, even if their concept of freedom is a bit, well, strange and not too well defined, often being used as a meaningless buzzword.

But why would you expect that? Gringos are one of the most passive and stable societies, in the last 50 years they passed from being one of the best places to live to have social indexes quite similar to Mexico, especially in wealth distribution and social mobility (the second being probably the closest you can get to have a "freedom index").

They have a very distorted impression of themselves, in general, which i attribute in no small part to the manifest destiny ideology. But in general i see them as conservative and passive, again, based on their indexes, current pop culture, their legislation and their politicians.

I guess what i am saying is, you seem like a smart folk, why would you base your expectations of USA on their self propaganda rather than their actions and numbers?

Also, as i pointed out on another similar thread, we have had documented proof that the US gov has been spying using the net both americans and non americans in 2001, then in 2006, then in 2008... if they didn't cared then, why now?

As for revolutions and freedom, you are right the liberals and freedom fighters are just a few in Egypt, but do you know how many russians did their revolution? Around 0.1% of the population, that is about 1 in 1000 dudes. Revolutions are weird, numbers vary, but they almost never represent their countries brah.

I expected them to do something about it because it's a pretty huge thing. Like, so huge that even their propaganda should have got them to do something, since it's nowhere near a major terrorist attack (Boston marathon doesn't count, I mean like 9/11) and it's so clearly against every single value their culture has.

All in all, I'm pretty disgusted by all this. I don't know if I'll be feeling bad for them when they inevitably end up being a complete police state with a shitty little layer of "FREEDOM, LIBERTY, MURRRRRIKA" badly covering up the hideous reality. I mean, sure, there's some people who really want to protest but can't, but the vast majority of those who can protest at least locally are too busy watching American Idol and too self obsessed to do shit.

 

[Tanakh]

I expected them to do something about it because it's a pretty huge thing. Like, so huge that even their propaganda should have got them to do something, since it's nowhere near a major terrorist attack (Boston marathon doesn't count, I mean like 9/11) and it's so clearly against every single value their culture has.

All in all, I'm pretty disgusted by all this. I don't know if I'll be feeling bad for them when they inevitably end up being a complete police state with a shitty little layer of "FREEDOM, LIBERTY, MURRRRRIKA" badly covering up the hideous reality. I mean, sure, there's some people who really want to protest but can't, but the vast majority of those who can protest at least locally are too busy watching American Idol and too self obsessed to do shit.

I disagree with you there. For me it's a much bigger issue how they have let less than 1% of their population fight their wars ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/us/civilian-military-gap-grows-as-fewer-americans-serve.html?_r=0 ) for more than a decade and giving them a terrible welcome back, the civilians aren't even buying war bonds or paying war taxes.

Or how they cite the second amendment as a gift from god that warrants them the right not only to bear arms, but to have zero government control over them. Did you knew that, according to the most conservative government estimates, 60,000 mexicans have been murdered using US guns in mexican soil? The US could have saved literally tens of thousands of lives by having universal background checks and better control over their gun industry. ( http://www.wola.org/commentary/four_facts_about_gun_legislation_and_cartel_violence_in_mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War )

I am a mexican, and as you can guess I have no love at all for a state whose weapons have been used to kill 60,000 of the people of the country I live in, because God gave americans the right to go to a store and buy a weapon, no questions asked. Sadly this is not an isolated issue, US has been the world biggest Rogue State in recorded history and has been sistematically fucking both it's population and the rest of the world since it's fundation ( http://www.amazon.com/Rogue-States-Force-World-Affairs/dp/0896086119 ); gringos can be very decent people, but their history, their goverment and their values are totally messed up.

As for police state, do you realize they just voted down this week the law that ensured black and brown people would have the same civil rights as whites in dixie land? No surprisingly 2 hours later Texas passed laws to make harder for non whites to vote. Right now americans aren't only passively letting their freedom go, but actively destroying it.

All in all I am a cynic that don't even flinch at this, but if I was to be disgusted there are plenty issues more worthy IMO, especially because even if the government had all the digital data of all the world there's the question of the worth of analyzing it, my guess is that the average person data is not worth even looking at.

 

[Zacharious-khan]

I think its because the people who really understand the implications of what the NSA is trying to do aren't afraid of what they are doing. People pushing for privacy/anonymity on the internet is no new thing. besides what black hat out there can resist getting on to that database.

Big issue, Chinese hackers get into this we are fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Zach, Chinese hackers are already into damn near anything.

Thing is, intelligence is no longer boots on the ground. It's database mining and pattern recognition and analysis. PRISM is a natural progression of that shift from the interpersonal to the electronic threat. In the event PRISM is disabled or shut down, it will be a tool no longer available. It will still exist. However, chances are 29-year old high school dropouts who want to make a quick buck by selling US secrets to the Chinese (who then get rebuffed) will still be employed by the US government in some capacity, even if they're not outsourced to a Bush-era contracting agency.

Oh, PRISM will be shut down in this iteration. It'll make the same job that has to be done more difficult. The expectations that the agencies will continue to operate at the same efficiency will still be there. But the important thing is that the blame for it is laid at the correct presidential door.

And then time will pass.

Ten years may pass. Or five. Or two. Maybe three months. Who knows?

And then something will happen that a program similar to PRISM might have caught. And it'll throw the world into a tizzy, and then people will once again hand over their theoretical freedoms and their justifications to people who promise that if we spend enough money and bankrupt enough of our economy, we'll be safe. And ten years later, a 29-year old high school dropout will think, "Gosh, if only I could sell some of these state secrets to the Mongolian Hegemony, I could be rich!"

 

[secretkeeper12]

I disagree with you there. For me it's a much bigger issue how they have let less than 1% of their population fight their wars ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/us/civilian-military-gap-grows-as-fewer-americans-serve.html?_r=0 ) for more than a decade and giving them a terrible welcome back, the civilians aren't even buying war bonds or paying war taxes.

wat?

If anything, the U.S. gives our troops too MUCH of a welcome back. Seriously, outside of extreme anti-war protests (which incidentally were probably a major factor in the decreased enlistment rate, along with the loss of the draft and general shadiness around it), troops are seen as some of the most respected people around. If a politician can find a way to connect themselves to the armed forces, you bet they're gonna milk it for all its worth.

If you were referring to practical benefits, there still isn't much of a case. Pensions can get a bit stingy at times, and that's honestly a pretty big concern, but most other things-from the honorary funerals [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_funerals_in_the_United_States] to charity aid [http://www.thehungersite.com/clickToGive/vet/home?link=ctg_vet_home_from_bcs_thank-you_sitenav]-are granted to them.

Sorry if I came off as rude; that's just such a BIZAREE thing to say.

 

[Snotnarok]

I could have sworn I signed a petition against this, so I'm not sure if you missed it or whatever. It wasn't against PRISM but NSA spying in it's entirety.

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

I don't really care what in my life the government would be listening in on and that's assuming I even pop up on their radar. I'm not doing anything illegal or anything that I am ashamed of. If the Prism program and other forms of it helps to keep the people of our country as well as our allies safe from the enemy of the day, then what exactly is the problem? Expecting complete privacy and/or autonomy while living in a government is stupid. There is a "give and take" understanding when living in a society.

 

[Tanakh]

If you were referring to practical benefits, there still isn't much of a case. Pensions can get a bit stingy at times, and that's honestly a pretty big concern, but most other things-from the honorary funerals [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_funerals_in_the_United_States] to charity aid [http://www.thehungersite.com/clickToGive/vet/home?link=ctg_vet_home_from_bcs_thank-you_sitenav]-are granted to them.

Ahh, yeah, they get the veteran day, funerals, charity aid and to be as sought by republicans as a single cute mother 8 different ethnicities.

But as you said, practical:

- Military training doesn't count towards getting a job, ie. a combat medic won't be able to get even a nurse job or paramedic. So they are screwed when inserting themselves back.

- Pensions and health benefits exist in paper. For a real person though it will be a nightmare to get access to those.

- Persons that went to war have special needs. They should have special legislation akin to that of minorities regarding works and education.

As a result the above and other factors a veteran is 3,300% more likely than a regular american to be homeless ( http://www.veteransinc.org/about-us/statistics/ ). Yeah, you read right, a veteran in US is three thousand three hundred percent more likely to be homeless than a civilian.

So yeah, US give em parades and free lolipops, then send the veterans to a very fucking harsh environment which gives no shit for them to fend off for themselves.

To be fair though, they are also overrepresented in the top earners of the country. It seems that when a veteran goes back it's a sink or swim situation, where after years killing and risking dying for their country badly planned missions, they go back to an even harsher environment they are not trained or supported for where they either learn new tricks or end up in misery.

 

[secretkeeper12]

snip

Yikes. That IS pretty fucked up. You'd think the same experience that can save a life in battle could be useful in say an ER, but I guess not. Seems like there's no winner: companies lose a good employee and the unfortunate veteran has no way to support themselves. And after going through hell, man......Excuse me, I'm off to have a hippy moment.

 

[hazydawn]

And deep down, if they stopped a single terrorist attack and saved one life, then I'm not concerned

You know I don't give a shit either because I have different problems on my mind but saying that a single life is worth more than the freedom of millions of people? Preposterous.

I don't really care what in my life the government would be listening in on and that's assuming I even pop up on their radar. I'm not doing anything illegal or anything that I am ashamed of. If the Prism program and other forms of it helps to keep the people of our country as well as our allies safe from the enemy of the day, then what exactly is the problem? Expecting complete privacy and/or autonomy while living in a government is stupid. There is a "give and take" understanding when living in a society.

As if this surveillance system could stop terrorist attacks efficiently. As long as they don't communicate, read bomb manuals or order the stuff to beuild them via the internet they are on the safe side. This "I don't have anything to hide" mentality is sick. If I or anyone I hold dear dies in a terrorist attack, so be it. There is no guaranty that it could have been prevented anyway. This is nothing I'm willing to trade my freedom and privacy for.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

And deep down, if they stopped a single terrorist attack and saved one life, then I'm not concerned

You know I don't give a shit either because I have different problems on my mind but saying that a single life is worth more than the freedom of millions of people? Preposterous.

Well that depends on how you value a life. Beside, I never said I was speaking for millions of people. I can only speak for myself

 

[Devil's Due]

And deep down, if they stopped a single terrorist attack and saved one life, then I'm not concerned

You know I don't give a shit either because I have different problems on my mind but saying that a single life is worth more than the freedom of millions of people? Preposterous.

Well that depends on how you value a life. Beside, I never said I was speaking for millions of people. I can only speak for myself

If you're supporting PRISM, then you're supporting taking away every single American's rights just to make yourself feel better. Is it fair to demand everyone else lose their rights for your safety?

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

If you're supporting PRISM, then you're supporting taking away every single American's rights just to make yourself feel better. Is it fair to demand everyone else lose their rights for your safety?

Once again, I never said that I supported PRISM. I just don't give a fuck

 

[hazydawn]

Well that depends on how you value a life. Beside, I never said I was speaking for millions of people. I can only speak for myself

Uh-huh. Tell me, what in your life you'd sacrifice to save a single life. Almost everything, am I right? Don't be absurd.
I didn't say that you would be trying to speak for more people than yourself. Your statement was that if a single life could be saved these measures would be justified(or at least that you felt that way). I know what, let's prohibit alcohol, tabacco, cars, violent media and anything else that's likely or assumed to cause some people to die, all for the sake of safety!