Problem with the Villain of Captain America Civil War (Spoiler thread)

[Politrukk]

Warning: Spoilers Ahead

So this has been bugging me for a while.
The big villain for Civil War is "Zemo"

But aside from pitting the Avengers against eachother in a stylistically classic manner (for the comic books).
Nobody acknowledges that Zemo is... well Zemo...
And he's not German or in any way related to Baron Zemo...
He's just some Sokovian who's lost his entire family and for some reason that means he has a grudge against Captain America specifically and that then suddenly means he's attacking/using Bucky to get back at him?

That's a bit problematic to me but I don't hear a lot of people talking about it, what do you guys think?

My big question would be : why is this guy even called Zemo?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

No idea, but I have a follow up question(s).

How did this guy even KNOW the Winter Solider was Bucky Barnes, or about the others(which was a spectacular red herring) AND that the Winter Solider killed the Starks?!
Like...he's just a dude. Sokovian special forces, sure, but just a dude. Where did her learn 20 year old secrets or that there were even secrets to be known?! Like he kills the one General man(who apparently has never heard of a hanging sit up or heard of breathing through his mouth) for not telling him about the deliberately destroyed files on the Stark mission(which, why were they destroyed?! If the implication in The Winter Solider is that he killed JFK, how is the Stark mission the one that crosses the line and needs to be eradicated?!) BUT how did he even know about the destroyed records to begin with?! They were destroyed! Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't go around to authority figures demanding information on the files, because you know those damn people. They all have files and if you ask enough of them sooner or later you get Cold War secrets.

Its not like Hydra pulled a Games Workshop and leaves hints about destroyed but totally secret Lost Legions for everyone to not ask about.

 

[Saelune]

Well, it has been talked about. General consensus is as great as the MCU is,, they tend to falter on villains. The Mandarin for example. His grudge is against the whole Avengers though, as his goal is to ruin them altogether. He just went for the heads, ie Iron Man and Captain America, since he felt that would be the best way.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I didn't know he was supposed to be based off a preexisting "Zemo" villain. I just found him incredibly boring.

 

[Politrukk]

I didn't know he was supposed to be based off a preexisting "Zemo" villain. I just found him incredibly boring.

Baron Zemo is one of Captain America's primary foes ranging across generations, literally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Zemo#Baron_Heinrich_Zemo

 

[Saelune]

I didn't know he was supposed to be based off a preexisting "Zemo" villain. I just found him incredibly boring.

Helmut Zemo, son of Heinrich Zemo, the 13th and 12 Baron Zemo respectively, though those 2 are the only super villains. Both are notable Marvel villains, mainly of Captain America as they are Nazis.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Yeah, I can only assume Marvel has some plans for Zemo. He's one of the only 2 MCU villains not to die by the end of their respective films. I believe Loki and Zemo are the only villains still alive, the rest have died. Well, except Trevor. Don't exactly consider him a villain, though.

I actually liked him. Not as Zemo, but as a Sokovia survivor with a grudge against the Avengers. I especially loved that he didn't end up taking the spotlight away from Captain America and Iron Man. I assumed, much like BvS, that the heroes would band together to fight the good fight against a common enemy. I greatly approve of what we got instead.

The film also managed to get me pretty excited for Black Panther and Spider-Man: Homecoming.

 

[Fappy]

I was bugged that they called him Zemo too. They're usually pretty good about the villains staying true to the source material in the MCU, but they dropped the ball on this one. There's no reason this guy should have been called Zemo.

Pretty annoyed they killed off Crossbones so quickly as well. I was really hoping we'd get more Winter Soldier-style (mostly just Cap/Bucky/Falcon/Widow) movies after this one, but they've already killed or ruined all of his most iconic villains.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

No idea, but I have a follow up question(s).

How did this guy even KNOW the Winter Solider was Bucky Barnes, or about the others(which was a spectacular red herring) AND that the Winter Solider killed the Starks?!

He explained it to the General before he killed them. Black Widow leaked EVERYTHING online once SHIELD fell. That included all of HYDRA's stuff. And Zemo said that he had a grudge and time, which was all he needed. He spent years combing through the data until he found what he needed, and thus started his quest.
Is it the most air-tight explanation? Probably not, but it works. You can bet that the HYDRA files would have the identity of The Winter Soldier in them.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP.

Except the mission report on the Stark assassination was specifically purged from the Records, thus why he had to hunt for the original source, the Winter Soldier.
So even if Hydra's records were leaked online, why would they have a file called "Don't Look: Ssshhh! Its super Secret and only Frank Johnson knows the truth, and he's really afraid of sinks."

And it's been what, 2 years? In canon? And even Shield said they hadn't cracked even a third of the data. How did one dude find out literally everything, including the things that weren't known to be missing?!

 

[Scarim Coral]

Do you really expected them to have given him that goofy looking mask he worn in the comic? Ok sure they could had pulled it of like Crossbone but it's unlikely.

I did thought when I saw his name in the casting and character, they would made a reference from Cap first movie that Zemo grandfather (first Zemo) was one of the generals that was guarding one of the conpoments to the final weapons when Cap had a good look at the map.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Except the mission report on the Stark assassination was specifically purged from the Records, thus why he had to hunt for the original source, the Winter Soldier.
So even if Hydra's records were leaked online, why would they have a file called "Don't Look: Ssshhh! Its super Secret and only Frank Johnson knows the truth, and he's really afraid of sinks."

And it's been what, 2 years? In canon? And even Shield said they hadn't cracked even a third of the data. How did one dude find out literally everything, including the things that weren't known to be missing?!

Well, it's assumed Cap purged it. And all Zemo has to do is "Starks died in X" "Winter Soldier had a redacted mission in X" and connect the dots. Plus, all he THEN had to look at was the Winter Soldier data. The SHIELD dump was huge, probably touching on Deathlok and who knows what else. 2 Years on one dudes activities?

 

[Hawki]

I...really don't see a problem. Not one other than "he's not from the comic."

For someone who has a dim view on most MCU movies, I liked Zemo. While it's a great leap of faith to believe that he can somehow predict all his foes' actions down to a T, he's a villain with an understandable motivation, and is reasonably well developed. He's willing to kill innocents to achieve his goals, but the point where he talks with the original psychlogist's family, as if yearning for the connection with family he once had, and never can again...that was quite well done.

So yes, Marvel, more of this please, less "I want to destroy/conquer/rule the world because I'm evil."

 

[Politrukk]

Do you really expected them to have given him that goofy looking mask he worn in the comic? Ok sure they could had pulled it of like Crossbone but it's unlikely.

I did thought when I saw his name in the casting and character, they would made a reference from Cap first movie that Zemo grandfather (first Zemo) was one of the generals that was guarding one of the conpoments to the final weapons when Cap had a good look at the map.

No on the first part, I was indeed talking about referencing his grandfather but for some reason all of that is lost in this movie so why is he even called Zemo and why is he suddenly form Sokovia?

 

[jklinders]

Well the guy is not dead yet. That implies that he is not completely done with. he might very well go through some kind of deal in the maybe one more non Avengers movie we are going to see Cap in. There is a lot of hate driving him and I don't really think he wants to simply stop at fracturing the Avengers. I think Chris Evans has signed on for three more movies. And as Avengers 3 is I heard somewhere a 2 parter that's 2 of them there. probably pushing it for doing more after that as age is going to catch up with him sooner or later.

Frankly I thought it was refreshing to have a villain with a personal rather than world taking over agenda for once. Also in this continuity Cap has absolutely no past history with any of the previous generation Zemos so everything is different here. I think he is being set up as a significant plot point for later personally.

 

[JimB]

Like...he's just a dude. Sokovian special forces, sure, but just a dude.

If Zemo is "just a dude" despite what he has demonstrably accomplished, then so is Tony Stark. He's just a dude who's kinda smart and invented a few things.

I don't see why it strains credulity to believe that someone who can challenge the Avengers is exceptional, and has skills that make him capable of learning from the leaked Hydra information what he needs to learn. After all, he accomplished it. Does a movie this long need a montage of him poring over Google documents while the camera zooms in on key phrases?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

No, my point wasn't that dudes can't do things. Obviously they can. My point is he is just some random dude off the street. How did he know any of this?! How did he out think the entire world and accurately predict the motivation and reactions of the entire Avengers team and every other person in the world? Where did he get the money? The resources? Did no one notice a man buying all the parts to make a shit load of bombs off Amazon?
He's not exactly Jason Bourne.

SNIP

I'm sorry, but the Stark mission wasn't Redacted, meaning its still there just blacked out, it was missing. As in not there. No file. That's why he was looking through the old files at the General's house, and didn't find anything. So how did he know there was a missing file? Its missing. Its not like they left a bookmark, or an I Owe You This File note.
And what would have happened if the mission wasn't about the Starks?! That would have thrown quite the monkey wrench into the whole 'Get Iron Man to kill Captain America' plan.

And its a big ass leap of faith to A. assume there's a missing mission, B. Infiltrate one of the most secure facilities in the world(while an EMP bomb is being delivered via Fedex. Hope there's no traffic delaying it for 20mins), and use a super secret code phrase to activate the deadliest yet easiest to brainwash and rewrite his own memories assassin C. hope that Hydra didn't just wipe the Winter Soldier's memory of the mission, like they did with his entire life, and finally D. hope to God the assumed missing mission is super evil and enough to get Tony Stark to go crazy with grief.

That's a hell of a dice throw to get all 6s.

 

[Saelune]

I...really don't see a problem. Not one other than "he's not from the comic."

For someone who has a dim view on most MCU movies, I liked Zemo. While it's a great leap of faith to believe that he can somehow predict all his foes' actions down to a T, he's a villain with an understandable motivation, and is reasonably well developed. He's willing to kill innocents to achieve his goals, but the point where he talks with the original psychlogist's family, as if yearning for the connection with family he once had, and never can again...that was quite well done.

So yes, Marvel, more of this please, less "I want to destroy/conquer/rule the world because I'm evil."

The issue is that the guy in the movie shouldn't been Zemo, cause it wasted it. Just like Iron Man 3 shouldn't have had "The Mandarin" since the plot that movie is based on didn't even have him in it, and now they wasted what should be a major villain on essentially a gag. (Though if they ever want to have the actual Mandarin show up and pretend the British guy in 3 never happened, Id let that plot hole be)

 

[JimB]

No, my point wasn't that dudes can't do things. Obviously they can. My point is he is just some random dude off the street.

How is he a random dude off the street but Tony Stark isn't? I don't understand the demarcation.

How did he know any of this?!

Black Widow publicly revealed all the Hydra and SHIELD files at the end of the previous Cap movie.

How did he out-think the entire world and accurately predict the motivation and reactions of the entire Avengers team and every other person in the world?

How did Tony Stark out-think the entire world by inventing dozens of completely unique, unreproducable technologies?

Where did he get the money? The resources? Did no one notice a man buying all the parts to make a shit load of bombs off Amazon?

Probably not. Bombs are pretty cheap to make, and if you're willing to steal stuff, they get even cheaper.

I'm sorry, but the Stark mission wasn't redacted, meaning it's still there but just blacked out, it was missing. As in not there. No file. That's why he was looking through the old files at the General's house, and didn't find anything.

Then a smart person has to ask himself why SHIELD apparently conducted no investigation into the death of one of its founding members, and realize pretty quickly that's a deliberate omission to cover up something.

What would have happened if the mission wasn't about the Starks?! That would have thrown quite the monkey wrench into the whole 'Get Iron Man to kill Captain America' plan.

No one said the plan was to get Iron Man to kill Captain America. The plan was to drive a wedge between the Avengers and split them. Which happened.

 

[Piorn]

What I just didn't get is why did they put him into the super horrible electrified glass bunker prison box?
I mean that's all kinds of fucked up. Sure he's a terrorist, but wasn't the entire point of a movie to establish a system where people will be trialed for their actions? He's just a normal guy, and sure he blew up a few people, but nothing that would warrant that kind of security. He's just a criminal and should get a trial.
He isn't a winter soldier. He can't break out of a normal prison.