Problem with the Villain of Captain America Civil War (Spoiler thread)

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I think I did answer it: Logic. You ask yourself why the world's biggest spy organization has no file on the death of its founder, and you infer the answer is they're covering shit up. Once you decide there's a cover-up, you ask yourself who profits most from that death and cover-up. When the dead person founded the Good Guys, you figure the people who profited most from his death and cover-up are probably the Bad Guys. So you go hunting for Bad Guys.

It isn't exactly rocket science. The hardest part is just noticing the gap, and even that's not very hard when the whole reason you're looking is to find dirt to use on the dead guy's son. Why on Earth wouldn't you look into and notice the gap about the dead guy in that case?

But this! This was in Winter Solider. If this was the official story for over 25 years, why would Zemo assume there's a completely different story? He would have been what, 10 when the Starks died?
How do you make the logical leap?
The Starks died in a car crash. There's probably a Shield report of the accident, saying its an accident, especially given than the head of Shield, Alexander Pierce, has been Hydra the whole time, and probably ordered the assassination to begin with. I think its fair to ask ourselves if the head of the world biggest spy organization can falsify an intelligence report in his own organization.

AND AND Remember Scarlet Witch tells Cap that most of the intelligence community doesn't believe the Winter Solider exists(which took place BEFORE the files were leaks, but nearly 23 years after the Starks are killed). So why would it be at all suspicious there's no report on the secret assassination of someone from the people that assassinated him placing the blame on someone no one believes exists?

 

[JimB]

If this was the official story for over twenty-five years, why would Zemo assume there's a completely different story?

Because the SHIELD files don't exist to back that story up. If one of the founding members of a spy organization is killed, why wouldn't there be months of reports of people exhaustively examining every centimeter of the crime scene in order to rule out every other possibility, which is basically the only way to conclude the death was an accident? If those files aren't there, then that is instantly suspicious.

Also, it's under twenty-five years. I'm not sure it's super relevant, but I'm going to point it out anyway because the details are important for establishing the logic of the story.

He would have been what, ten when the Starks died?

What does that have to do with anything? Why does Zemo's age twenty-three years ago preclude him from reading the files Black Widow leaked two years ago?

And and remember Scarlet Witch tells Cap that most of the intelligence community doesn't believe the Winter Solider exists (which took place before the files were leaked, but nearly twenty-three years after the Starks are killed). So why would it be at all suspicious there's no report on the secret assassination of someone from the people that assassinated him placing the blame on someone no one believes exists?

Black Widow said that, not Scarlet Witch. And you're coming at the story from the back instead of the front again. You already said, in your first post in this thread, that the files about the Stark assassination were destroyed; that means there was a cover-up. Zemo didn't have to know the Winter Soldier was responsible for the assassination (though it would be a logical guess, since the existence of the Winter Soldier was publicized after the events of Captain America: the Winter Soldier) in order to know it's suspicious the files aren't available. He only had to notice the gap, and start torturing Hydra agents for information until he found out Bucky was responsible.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Oh sure, sure. The Hydra files on the assassination of the Starks are missing. Absolutely.
But the Shield files on the accident aren't. That's the cover up, right? The alternate story. Because Shield was tricked, from the inside obviously, but tricked none-the-less.

So a dump of secret files would dump the accident report, and not the deleted assassination report.

 

[Saelune]

I think I did answer it: Logic. You ask yourself why the world's biggest spy organization has no file on the death of its founder, and you infer the answer is they're covering shit up. Once you decide there's a cover-up, you ask yourself who profits most from that death and cover-up. When the dead person founded the Good Guys, you figure the people who profited most from his death and cover-up are probably the Bad Guys. So you go hunting for Bad Guys.

It isn't exactly rocket science. The hardest part is just noticing the gap, and even that's not very hard when the whole reason you're looking is to find dirt to use on the dead guy's son. Why on Earth wouldn't you look into and notice the gap about the dead guy in that case?

But this! This was in Winter Solider. If this was the official story for over 25 years, why would Zemo assume there's a completely different story? He would have been what, 10 when the Starks died?
How do you make the logical leap?
The Starks died in a car crash. There's probably a Shield report of the accident, saying its an accident, especially given than the head of Shield, Alexander Pierce, has been Hydra the whole time, and probably ordered the assassination to begin with. I think its fair to ask ourselves if the head of the world biggest spy organization can falsify an intelligence report in his own organization.

AND AND Remember Scarlet Witch tells Cap that most of the intelligence community doesn't believe the Winter Solider exists(which took place BEFORE the files were leaks, but nearly 23 years after the Starks are killed). So why would it be at all suspicious there's no report on the secret assassination of someone from the people that assassinated him placing the blame on someone no one believes exists?

Bottom-left corner of your picture. "There have been several allegations that there was foul play involved..."

Side note: I like when movie papers actually have relevant articles in them and not stock babble.

 

[JimB]

The Hydra files on the assassination of the Starks are missing. Absolutely. But the SHIELD files on the accident aren't. That's the cover up, right? The alternate story. Because SHIELD was tricked, from the inside obviously, but tricked nonetheless.

No, because Captain America knew it was an assassination. He confessed that to Iron Man, remember? He knew they were assassinated, but he didn't know who did it, which means he didn't learn it from Bucky. He learned it from SHIELD. SHIELD was not tricked. They knew the real story, and deleted the files; or at least created an imperfect cover-up Zemo could follow to the source.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

Well the whole idea of actually accusing the Avengers for anything at all is at best idiotic.

If not for them, the world would be literally over. Or how they accused the girl for the deaths from the explosion.
The bomb would have detonated at the ground and killed hundreds of people there were around Captain, the enemy and the girl.
She contained the explosion for as long as she could and throw it in the air. At the end 11 (?) people died and there was some damage. How the fuck is what she did bad?

Then the big guy mister nobody comes and puts a big video of Hydra destroying cities and their flying ships falling. Yeah, thanks Captain. You took down the damn ships and destroyed a few buildings. Why the hell did you do that? Why couldn't you just leave Hydra's weapons of mass and global destruction alone? Fuck you for saving the world!

They try to make the heroes seem bad and gray instead of good. But they failed horribly. I just came from the cinema. The movie was good for an action movie. Great action, perfect for shutting off my mind and enjoying it. But the story was mediocre and the reasoning behind most of the action was bad.

 

[JimB]

Well the whole idea of actually accusing the Avengers for anything at all is at best idiotic.

If not for them, the world would be literally over.

I'm on Cap's side here, in that I don't think micromanagement has ever made a problem be solved with less harm done than if competent professionals are allowed to act on their experience, but to be fair, the Avengers have really only saved the world from shit they brought to the world in the first place. Loki trying to conquer Earth is a direct response to Thor mistreating him all his life. Ultron trying to destroy Earth is a direct response to Tony Stark deciding he should just invent world-affecting stuff without having anyone vet his work. Hulk wouldn't have killed all those people in Africa if the Avengers hadn't decided a post-hypnotic lullabye was enough to control an invincible death-engine. The only threat an Avenger has faced that no Avenger participated in the creation of is Malekith wanting to kill light because he really wants to be Sauron when he grows up (though you could make an argument for Captain America not creating the Red Skull, even though the same man enhanced them both).

Also, I'm not a fan of the idea that they should get a walk on the bodies they left behind. Measuring life as a mathematical equation, where the dead and the bereaved just have to suck it up because that's the cost of doing business, is callous and irresponsible.

Yes, they deserve to be held responsible and praised for the good things they've done. But it's childish to say they don't deserve to be held responsible for the bad things.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

The Hydra files on the assassination of the Starks are missing. Absolutely. But the SHIELD files on the accident aren't. That's the cover up, right? The alternate story. Because SHIELD was tricked, from the inside obviously, but tricked nonetheless.

No, because Captain America knew it was an assassination. He confessed that to Iron Man, remember? He knew they were assassinated, but he didn't know who did it, which means he didn't learn it from Bucky. He learned it from SHIELD. SHIELD was not tricked. They knew the real story, and deleted the files; or at least created an imperfect cover-up Zemo could follow to the source.

So Shield knew? They knew there was a cover up in their own organization?

And even so, in Avengers 1, when Tony hacked into Shield's files and "knows everything Shield knows" he never found that report on his own parents assassination? Even if it wasn't immediate, he's had years to assign JARVIS to comb through the files. I find it hard to believe Shield, meaning not Hydra, knew if we're also expected to believe they didn't know everything else and that no one else ever found out.

 

[Piorn]

He can't break out of a normal prison.

He can shatter the Avengers, but he can't break out of a normal prison?

That's like complaining how a pilot manages to get several tons of plane into the air, but can't do the same with a car. He is just a normal guy, pissing off the avengers doesn't change that.

What I just didn't get is why did they put him into the super horrible electrified glass bunker prison box?
I mean that's all kinds of fucked up. Sure he's a terrorist, but wasn't the entire point of a movie to establish a system where people will be trialed for their actions? He's just a normal guy, and sure he blew up a few people, but nothing that would warrant that kind of security. He's just a criminal and should get a trial.
He isn't a winter soldier. He can't break out of a normal prison.

Neither could Falcon or Hawkeye, but into the super prison they go. Plus he did do major damage to a bunch of super humans, and since they are compared to nukes, then he messed around with well, nukes and is a major terrorist. The fact they didn't execute him shows restraint. (Though in reality its cause the movies want him to come back)

Can you name one criminal who has been put in such a containment? For whatever reason. Dictators? Terrorists? Psychopaths? No.
The box is excessive, and the fact that he doesn't get a trial is just downright criminal, and a violation of human rights.
It sets a dangerous precedent. What if someone bumps Ironman's car? Into the box! Someone cuts Hawkeye's hair weird, into the box. Bump into Black Widow in the subway? Box! Hurting Tony's feelings by showing him the death of his parents? Obviously, into the box.
He should be trialed for the crime he did, not against who he did it. Especially since his actual crimes are pretty mediocre.

 

[Saelune]

What I just didn't get is why did they put him into the super horrible electrified glass bunker prison box?
I mean that's all kinds of fucked up. Sure he's a terrorist, but wasn't the entire point of a movie to establish a system where people will be trialed for their actions? He's just a normal guy, and sure he blew up a few people, but nothing that would warrant that kind of security. He's just a criminal and should get a trial.
He isn't a winter soldier. He can't break out of a normal prison.

Neither could Falcon or Hawkeye, but into the super prison they go. Plus he did do major damage to a bunch of super humans, and since they are compared to nukes, then he messed around with well, nukes and is a major terrorist. The fact they didn't execute him shows restraint. (Though in reality its cause the movies want him to come back)

Can you name one criminal who has been put in such a containment? For whatever reason. Dictators? Terrorists? Psychopaths? No.
The box is excessive, and the fact that he doesn't get a trial is just downright criminal, and a violation of human rights.
It sets a dangerous precedent. What if someone bumps Ironman's car? Into the box! Someone cuts Hawkeye's hair weird, into the box. Bump into Black Widow in the subway? Box! Hurting Tony's feelings by showing him the death of his parents? Obviously, into the box.
He should be trialed for the crime he did, not against who he did it. Especially since his actual crimes are pretty mediocre.

Exactly. That's kind of the WHOLE POINT of the Civil War plot, and why Captain America is the good side, but due to so much being left out in the movies, its not made as apparent why Iron Man is a huge dick for being a Government pawn. In the comics unregistered heroes who resisted, would be put into a prison like, 100x worse than the one in the movie, just because they didn't want to be government pawns, and were the only ones actually stopping villains during this time, while the pro-side was busy capturing anti-side, and infact made an army out of villians, aka the Thunderbolts...which were lead by Zemo.

 

[JimB]

So SHIELD knew? They knew there was a cover-up in their own organization?

Yup. So the question becomes, whom is the cover-up targeting? Could it possibly be the reckless, irresponsible hacker who twice that we know of demonstrated his contempt for SHIELD secrets and stole them just 'cause he felt like it?

And even so, in Avengers 1, when Tony hacked into SHIELD's files and "knows everything SHIELD knows," he never found that report on his own parents assassination?

Yes. Because it wasn't there. Because it had been covered up.

He can't break out of a normal prison.

He can shatter the Avengers, but he can't break out of a normal prison?

That's like complaining how a pilot manages to get several tons of plane into the air, but can't do the same with a car.

No, it's like saying the guy who planned all that with his brain and who still has his brain while in prison is someone worth taking a little extra care with.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Well the whole idea of actually accusing the Avengers for anything at all is at best idiotic.

If not for them, the world would be literally over. Or how they accused the girl for the deaths from the explosion.
The bomb would have detonated at the ground and killed hundreds of people there were around Captain, the enemy and the girl.
She contained the explosion for as long as she could and throw it in the air. At the end 11 (?) people died and there was some damage. How the fuck is what she did bad?

Then the big guy mister nobody comes and puts a big video of Hydra destroying cities and their flying ships falling. Yeah, thanks Captain. You took down the damn ships and destroyed a few buildings. Why the hell did you do that? Why couldn't you just leave Hydra's weapons of mass and global destruction alone? Fuck you for saving the world!

They try to make the heroes seem bad and gray instead of good. But they failed horribly. I just came from the cinema. The movie was good for an action movie. Great action, perfect for shutting off my mind and enjoying it. But the story was mediocre and the reasoning behind most of the action was bad.

Its hard to argue against Captain America when we've had four movies to tell us what a swell guy Steve Rogers is, but try seeing this from the perspective of the other country. All they know is a group of American superpowered vigilanties had a firefight with a bunch of mercenaries in their country without the knowledge of either government, and the result was 12 people died

Yeah, we know the Avengers are good guys, and I trust them more than I would a United Nations committee, but I at least understand why people would want some regulations put in place

 

[PapaGreg096]

What I just didn't get is why did they put him into the super horrible electrified glass bunker prison box?
I mean that's all kinds of fucked up. Sure he's a terrorist, but wasn't the entire point of a movie to establish a system where people will be trialed for their actions? He's just a normal guy, and sure he blew up a few people, but nothing that would warrant that kind of security. He's just a criminal and should get a trial.
He isn't a winter soldier. He can't break out of a normal prison.

Neither could Falcon or Hawkeye, but into the super prison they go. Plus he did do major damage to a bunch of super humans, and since they are compared to nukes, then he messed around with well, nukes and is a major terrorist. The fact they didn't execute him shows restraint. (Though in reality its cause the movies want him to come back)

Can you name one criminal who has been put in such a containment? For whatever reason. Dictators? Terrorists? Psychopaths? No.
The box is excessive, and the fact that he doesn't get a trial is just downright criminal, and a violation of human rights.
It sets a dangerous precedent. What if someone bumps Ironman's car? Into the box! Someone cuts Hawkeye's hair weird, into the box. Bump into Black Widow in the subway? Box! Hurting Tony's feelings by showing him the death of his parents? Obviously, into the box.
He should be trialed for the crime he did, not against who he did it. Especially since his actual crimes are pretty mediocre.

Exactly. That's kind of the WHOLE POINT of the Civil War plot, and why Captain America is the good side, but due to so much being left out in the movies, its not made as apparent why Iron Man is a huge dick for being a Government pawn. In the comics unregistered heroes who resisted, would be put into a prison like, 100x worse than the one in the movie, just because they didn't want to be government pawns, and were the only ones actually stopping villains during this time, while the pro-side was busy capturing anti-side, and infact made an army out of villians, aka the Thunderbolts...which were lead by Zemo.

Honestly the reason why they left that out is because that would've been too stupid here at least you can understand why Tony would want this and make it gray as possible.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

I understand why Zemo needed to function this way for the film. The conflict needs to remain focuses on the Tony v Steve dynamic and having a big, bombastic villain would distract from the ideological clash between them.

Still though, I do think if you're going to use a character you shouldn't write a different character and just gave them the appropriate name. Of course, Black Panther did stop him at the end from

Spoiler

killing himself

so I'm expecting him to come back in his more comic book form similar to how Crossbones did.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Wasn't there a Zemo in the Thunderbolts (villains masquerading as heroes)?

What I found most odd in Civil War, was that EVERYONE conveniently forgot that Loki or Ultron ever existed. Ever. Everything that happened in NYC? Avengers fault. Everything in Sokovia? Avengers fault. Not ONCE did anyone say "You know it was Loki who let in the rampaging army to damage NYC." No one. It made the whole Accords thing seem ridiculous.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

But this! This was in Winter Solider. If this was the official story for over 25 years, why would Zemo assume there's a completely different story? He would have been what, 10 when the Starks died?
How do you make the logical leap?
The Starks died in a car crash. There's probably a Shield report of the accident, saying its an accident, especially given than the head of Shield, Alexander Pierce, has been Hydra the whole time, and probably ordered the assassination to begin with. I think its fair to ask ourselves if the head of the world biggest spy organization can falsify an intelligence report in his own organization.

AND AND Remember Scarlet Witch tells Cap that most of the intelligence community doesn't believe the Winter Solider exists(which took place BEFORE the files were leaks, but nearly 23 years after the Starks are killed). So why would it be at all suspicious there's no report on the secret assassination of someone from the people that assassinated him placing the blame on someone no one believes exists?

There's an official story on what happened with JFK. So what? That doesn't stop thousands of people to think it's a cover up story and looking for traces everywhere - we've billions of diffrent theories about what happened there.
So it boils down to you not believing that Zemo distrusts the official view and him not being able to find any useful information to cross-reference in 2 years of full dedication.

We can't help you with that. I think it's very well possible, you don't. What do you want to hear from us now? That's stuff happening off-screen, we can't post a screenshot of how Zemo finds it out...

And about the last paragraph: What if the files show other assassinations on important people? What if there's info about the Starks before and after the assassination, which do not have a direct link with the assassination itslef that Zemo can crossreference? And what about him interrogating/torturing OTHER ex-members of Hydra he finds in interesting files? That's not shown, but that's all very well plausible.
I didn't look like his visit with the general was his first time doing something like that.
Also it's not really helpful if you think Zemo is just a dumb guy from the streets. I mean Widow and Hawkeye are basically only trained special agents either and they somehow are Avengers. Heck, compared to BWidow even 007 could be an Avenger probably.