Project Eternity Breaks $3 million

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SajuukKhar said:
The Crotch said:
1: There are zero connections to D&D. So... that's not a problem. Unless you're replaying the old Baldurs Gates.

2: Obsidian hasn't done a properly isometric game. I mean, Black Isle and Troika did, but those are specifically the old-ass games we're using as comparisons. The closest thing to an isometric game Obsidian proper has done is Neverwinter Nights 2, which I haven't played in quite a while but if memory serves it had a fine UI except for its abomination of a camera.

Which... y'know, PE is fixed camera.
Zero connection to D&D universe does not remove the fact it still has what is essentially the D&D diceroll/attribute systems.
An RPG with attributes?

And a means of determining random numbers?

Fuck!
 

SajuukKhar

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The Crotch said:
An RPG with attributes?

And a means of determining random numbers?

Fuck!
Yes, I don't like random number, it turns playing a game into playing a slot machine, a game of luck.

I know I cant change anyone mind, and no one can change mine, and I don't want another pointless argument.

So lets just agree to disagree about the quality of the game.
 

miso2002

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I really want to invest in more kickstarters but until I see a return on some of the games I've invested in, I think I am going to be a little fickle. I'll prolly buy this and have been watching it but I am holding off on kickstarter until I start to see a few products.
 

Sight Unseen

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miso2002 said:
I really want to invest in more kickstarters but until I see a return on some of the games I've invested in, I think I am going to be a little fickle. I'll prolly buy this and have been watching it but I am holding off on kickstarter until I start to see a few products.
Couldn't even chip in $25 for essentially a pre-order which will be cheaper than when it comes out for real? With a company like Obsidian I feel pretty confident in getting a return. I dont think they're trying to scam us :p

Also some of the kickstarter games are starting to come out for real now, like the aforementioned Faster Than Light and Zombies,Run!
 

miso2002

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SajuukKhar said:
lotr rocks 0 said:
Well clearly some people like them...

I haven't personally played FTL but the amount of nerd joy I've heard come out of that game is incredible.

I did buy Zombies, Run! before I knew it was even kickstarted and I'm enjoying it quite a bit and it has helped to motivate me to run more and get in better shape.

Also project eternity has a ton of good ideas just waiting to be implemented and a world that sounds really compelling and unique from anything I have ever seen before. I don't regret for a second pledging my $250 dollars to a company whose made legendary games to make another one without the need of a publisher to ruin their game.
People also spend thousands on games like Farmeville.

Also, having read everything Obsidian has posted about Project Eternity, all I can say is.
It sounds
exactly
like
every
other
RPG
from
the
90's

I already own Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and if I wanted to play them today, I would, I dont see the need to fund what is essentially Baldur's Gate again.

The only thing different about Project Eternity is that its old-style, and I know how much people will latch on to anything for the simple fact it isn't in the current style, rather then if the game is good or not.
I see your point. If you haven't played baldrs gate 1 or 2 or you don't mind replaying the game again than it may not provide enough difference for you. I've played baldrs gate and don't have an urge to play it again but would totally put out money for more of the same.
 

Terrible Opinions

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But... that's... every RPG. Skyrim uses an RNG for its critical hits. So does The Witcher 2. Every JRPG and SRPG ever. Civilization. Xcom. Any game that has a chance-to-hit mechanic and/or variable damage and/or random loot tables.

I'm really not trying to change your mind. I'm just wondering why you'd come into a thread about an RPG and say, "I don't like RPGs".
 

SajuukKhar

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The Crotch said:
But... that's... every RPG. Skyrim uses an RNG for its critical hits. So does The Witcher 2. Every JRPG and SRPG ever. Civilization. Xcom. Any game that has a chance-to-hit mechanic and/or variable damage and/or random loot tables.

I'm really not trying to change your mind. I'm just wondering why you'd come into a thread about an RPG and say, "I don't like RPGs".
I don't like how Skyrim uses RNGs for its critical hits, I would prefer it had something like Borderlands 2 were enemies have critical hit zones, and I do wish Skyrim used hand placed loot instead of randomly generated loot.

I do like RPGs, but games like Skyrim have shown that you don't need RNGs to control your every attacks, and you dont need an attribute system.

In fact, the removal of the attribute system gave Skyrim larger character diversity.
SajuukKhar said:
In past Elder Scrolls games, the bonuses you got to your attributes, the +1/3/5 bonus, were determined by how much you raised a skill related to that attribute.

Because of this however, by raising you major and minor skills, one would eventually reach a point where one would max out the attributes related to their major and minor skills long before they would finish leveling up because of the bonuses.

This ultimately made people have to level up attributes related to skills that weren't their major or minor skills, and by the time one was done leveling, one would have all their main attributes maxed, and most of the other attributes at very high level.

Since attributes in the Elder Scrolls, as with attributes in all other RPGs, control things like carry weight, stamina, magicka, health, and so on, the end result would be that most character would have similar, if not exactly the same stats.

The Warrior, Mage, and Thief characters that started off with wildly different levels of hp/magicka/stamina would all end up with basically the same levels in those things.

Past Elder Scrolls games leveling system could thus be described as a pyramid, the lower levels, or "base", were the most widespread and diverse your character ever got, but as you leveled up, or got close to the "tip" of the pyramid, the more similar they became.

By removing the major/minor skill system, and attributes, and replacing attributes with perks, Bethesda flipped the pyramid upside down.

Skyrim's leveling system is an upside down pyramid, everyone at the "base" is the same, however as they level up, and gain perks, they grow more varied from each other, getting more varied the close the reach the "top".

My Warrior, Mage, and Thief, who in this example have the same hp/magicka/stamina, and 100 in all skills, are VASTLY different from each other because of the perks they have.
-My warrior deals double damage and has special power attacks
-My thief can turn invisible when entering stealth
-My mage can cast uber-high level magic spells with almost zero magicka drain.

On the other hand my same characters in Oblivion, and Morrowind, with 100 in each attribute, and 100 in each skill, all deal the same damage with all weapons, get the same armor protection from all armors, and cast all the same spells for the same amount of magicka. The vast differences I started off with became negated.
.
.
It is the fundamental flaw of every RPG with an attribute system, from past Elder Scrolls games to Fallout.

A character with the same SPECIAL stats, in this example all 5s, and 100 in all skills, would be exactly the same as another character with all 5s in every SPECIAL and 100 in all skills, the perks in Fallout provide only menial differences between the two.

When you have things like Health/Magicka/Stamina/Action points/Carry Weight etc. etc. controlled by attributes it ends up making most character vastly similar.

I mean, in New Vegas, how many character really had a huge difference in carry weight? the answer. few.

Attribute systems impose conformity, and similarity, between characters, and unless you do some crazy min/max of attributes, like bringing your perception down to 1, the visible differences between having a 5 or 7 in said attribute are slim, to none.

Attribute systems have, and always will, impose conformity, and stifle character diversity, in RPGs by removing control of many important things that define your character out of your hands.

I can tolerant RNGs for something like loot tables, only because its nearly impossible for devs to hand place loot in a game that large.

But RNGs take skill out of games and just turn the entire game into a giant slot machine, I don't find missing an attack for no other reason the computer said so to be fun, and I don't understand how other people find that fun.

Games are something you are supposed to play, and your ability to win or fail at a game should be based on your ability to play them, not a RNG.

If you can make something controlled by the player, you should, IMO.
 

Terrible Opinions

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Elder Scrolls has always promoted character homogenization. Skyrim is no exception.

Physically aimed attacks flat-out don't work in some genres. And again, it's totally cool that you aren't in to that. I just don't understand why you'd walk up and say, "I totally wouldn't spend money on this thing that by definition I do not like."
 

SajuukKhar

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The Crotch said:
Elder Scrolls has always promoted character homogenization. Skyrim is no exception.
That is provably wrong, and if you want I could send you a PM detailing why.
The Crotch said:
Physically aimed attacks flat-out don't work in some genres. And again, it's totally cool that you aren't in to that. I just don't understand why you'd walk up and say, "I totally wouldn't spend money on this thing that by definition I do not like."
But they only don't work because the game is designed to make it not work.

Its a limitation that is literally 100% artificial, it is entirely possible to make the same game, with the same characters, with the same story, and the same themes, in a game that works without RNGs, or anywher near as many RNGs.

I wanted to like this game, I wanted to Obsidian move beyond what they were, out of their comfort zone, and make something truly new, but instead they fell back on old, tried and true methods, and aren't taking any real big risks.

The Elder Scrolls is far from a well working RPG that removes RNGs from most things, but I like that it at least tries.

It seems like a giant waste of both money and opportunity, to just make what is essential every other 90's RPGs with a graphics upgrade when they could have done something unique.
 

Terrible Opinions

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Fire it up.

And if you can tell me how to make a better Civilization or Xcom without involving RNGs, I'd like to know that secret, too.
 

SajuukKhar

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The Crotch said:
Fire it up.

And if you can tell me how to make a better Civilization or Xcom without involving RNGs, I'd like to know that secret, too.
Civilization is a 4X game, not an RPG.

RTS/4X games are one of the very few instances were RNGs are acceptable because no human alive could directly control all of their hundreds of units.

Also they are remaking Xcom without RNGs, or at least as many, we will see then how well it fares, I doubt it will be good, but there needs to be shit to mold the standing stones of progress.

Mass Effect, while simple in its use, has shown that having a RPG where you can order you AI controlled team members around and give them orders/make them use skills in a more real time fashion is possible.

It isn't exactly great, but it is a step in the right direction, it needs work, needs to have its features deepened, but I respect it for trying.

And I wish Obsidian would TRY themselves, if they did, I know they could make something great.
 

Terrible Opinions

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I am aware of the genre. It is one of the genres that functions best by incorporating RNGs. Like party-based RPGs.

A lot of RTS' don't use any randomness. Off the top of my head, the big two examples I can think of are projectile drift in a few games - AoE 2, Total War - and the inaccuracy from high ground/hiding behind trees in the original Starcraft.

The Xcom remake is already out. It uses an RNG.

Mass Effect gives you extraordinarily little control over your squad compared to Baldur's Gate and its cousins.

Fire up the PM so we can stop shitting up the thread, aye? Genuinely curious.

Ya four million dollars.
 

SajuukKhar

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There is more then one Xcom being made, just as a finisher for here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCOM
 

Comic Sans

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SajuukKhar said:
Podunk said:
This would be more impressive if the Homestuck Kickstarter didn't raise 2.5 million on a name and absolutely nothing else.
Kickstarter only shows how easily people can tricked into giving others money, despite said other's total lack of any real product, or past history.

Well at least it serves some purpose, it gets people to spend money, instead of hording it and further destroying the value of money, and it gives me another means to reaffirm my belief that humanity is screwed.
Um, since when is the company and the people behind it not "past history"? I am well aware of their pedigree, and that we might see something more from them is more than enough for me to invest. I make enough money that it doesn't bother me to invest, I get the game and extra goodies to make it worth it for me. So I fail to see the issue.
 

Altorin

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SirBryghtside said:
At time of writing, there is ONE digital preorder ($20 bonus) left. Wow.
that happened several times, it's because people pledged 20 dollars upgraded their pledge
 

GiantRaven

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SajuukKhar said:
Kickstarter only shows how easily people can tricked into giving others money, despite said other's total lack of any real product, or past history.
Because if there's one thing that Chris Avellone, Tim Cain and the rest of Obsidian staff lack in general, it's past history. Oh wait, that's stupid.

Seriously, past history is the biggest thing they've got going for them.
 

BrotherRool

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I lost my internet for the last 2 days and this was a pretty darn happy surprise to come back too. $4 million? And at points I never even had faith that they'd hit $3 million, I'm ridiculously happy now. And if this game is good and sells well, hopefully they'll make enough money that they can go straight into making another game of their choosing. We might just have started Obsidian on the path that will allow them to eventually become publisher free =D