Project Natal and why it will not work

[PurpleRain]

The point of a game is to get its user into the world created for them. To submerge him or her into an imaginative universe were the subconscious takes over playing while you consciously make all the decisions. Not the two key words here:
Subconscious and conscious.
We are not to think about what we are doing. We do not think that we are using a controller. QTE (Quick time events) rip the user out of the world as they look down at that comfortably sitting gamepad resting between their grubby mitts. It makes them bring their mind out of its subconscious zone of thinking into the player actually hitting the buttons. The entire fact of having a gamepad is to have something invisible in your hands and to not notice your fingers going to work. As soon as gaming comes to a conscious level, the zone is broken and you are ripped out of the world.

The controller in its natural habitat.

In 1986 the first two gamepads came about when Nintendo launched its NES controller and Sega made its reasonably cool sounding Master System controller. Twenty three years later and we are still using controllers. They have more buttons, can do a wider range of tasks and even include rumble packs and ghost cords, but in general terms, they are still the same things. Throughout the history of gaming, we have had many different types of 'controllers' that are made to put people into the game. These include some that work:
The Guitar Hero Guitar/Drumset/Etc
And most that don't:
Gun shaped controllers (to some extent)
Steering wheels
Etc

I found that the guitars are used as a necessary part of the game, to hit the buttons and also to throw it up high to get Star Power. While guns may work with some games at arcades, general ones used at homes feel out of place holding no value and having no need that a gamepad couldn't have easily and already exceeded. Steering wheels are also clunky and so unneeded outside of the arcade. So how is Natal going to hold up?

"It's like I'm really playing a game!"

Natal takes away all gamepads, and all things needed with your hands and brings the game to you. What can be wrong with this? How does this takes the user out of the game?
Like mentioned in the first paragraph, Natal brings the game to the conscious level. People talk to unfamiliar objects and people with a conscious mind, not subconscious as someone would holding a conversation with a friend. This however is not a friend you are talking to nor a light conversation. This is inhuman and a game needing to be controlled with voices and motion. This is generally designed to keep the user at a conscious level thus breaking the world that they are supposed to exist in.

I for one cannot see people being absorbed into this world of Natal when for so so long gamepads have served us just fine. Not only just fine, but with comfort, with ease and posture. They have recently been designed to fill the hand and so no cramping or breaking the user into the conscious world. And for so long we have grown used to the idea of having this non-existent tool in our hands; the strings to which we hold the puppet. Changing it is an unnecessary use of money and power wasted on nothing.

Why do I write this? Isn't it an old subject and already established that people are not going to like it? Yeah, basically. I just wanted to show a different angle on the story and voice an opinion of mine. And perhaps it can get a few people thinking and appreciate the levels of subconsciousness of gaming and how the gamepad fits into all this like a jigsaw piece.

 

[DrunkWithPower]

I agree but the one reason, I agree because I have a deep hate for Microsoft. (not aimed at Xbox)

 

[PurpleRain]

I agree but the one reason, I agree because I have a deep hate for Microsoft. (not aimed at Xbox)

So you have nothing to add to the subject but hate? Thank you.

 

[Animated Rope]

I keep thinking waving your arms and looking around is hard to do subconsciously at the same level, even if you get used to it. Or is that essentially what you already said?

 

[I am Jack's smirking revenge]

So many television sets are going to be destroyed by little happy children who love to play fighting games.

 

[pantsoffdanceoff]

I completely agree, my biggest problem is that you will try and do something and you can't and you'll realize why, [i/]because it's a video game[/i]. Goodbye immersion. With a controller you already know exactly what you can or cannot do.

 

[twistedshadows]

It's kind of hard to say if it will be successful or not at this point. I'm sort of skeptical of how Natal will work and how I personally feel about it, but I'm sure there are people out there who will give it a try, so anything's possible.

 

[DrunkWithPower]

I agree but the one reason, I agree because I have a deep hate for Microsoft. (not aimed at Xbox)

So you have nothing to add to the subject but hate? Thank you.

Well, I do but the last time a flame war busted threw my shield... but anywho. Why make a motion controlled item? Wii has one and it fails, PS3 and Xbox are both on the railroad to failsville. PS3 is better off with a control than a sensor with Natal, what happens when you walk off to answer the door or are unable to speak? My brothers a mute and I don't think he will be able to use it to the full extent.

 

[TaborMallory]

I've got two points that rip your theory to shreds.

-Who says Natal will focus entirely on immersion, or be made for serious gameplay?
-Who says Natal won't be able to work alongside standard controllers?

 

[Kiutu]

If you have to look at the controller for quick time events...you are not used to the controller. I play best at Guitar Hero with a controller, and is that not the ultimate quick time event game? So unless I am THAT amazing, people used to game controllers should not have that much trouble aside from just being too slow sometimes or something.

Your reasoning really is just "change is scary." I am not a huge supporter of NATAL specifically, but the overall idea I am. Would you be skilled playing games using it right away? No. Were you skilled with a controller the first time? I doubt it.
If NATAL doesnt work, it wont likely be because it makes you think your actions through, but just developers doing things wrong. (Or NATAL not being what it says it is)

 

[iamnotincompliance]

I concur. Now, this is the first I'm hearing about vocal interaction in addition to the spastic hand-flailing motion control aspect of Natal, but then I haven't cared enough to do any research about it. Aside from the immersion-breaking aspect, I have to say... voice controls don't seem anywhere near ready for prime time either. Hell, Windows 7 RC, which I'm using, has speech recognition, and it's okay with simple commands and perfect pronunciation, but anything complicated, even with my relatively good headset, forget it. I doubt if Microsoft has made that much progress since Win 7 RC to justify its inclusion in Natal. I will grant, though, that Wii, Natal, ever increasing processor power, approaching photo-realism, and (theoretically) improving AI could, someday, blast out the other side of the uncanny valley into some sort of Star Trek inspired holodeck-like affair, but that's still easily decades away, and until that's even an option, the whole thing seems downright silly.

I'm not one to deride technological progress, but Wii would probably be even more popular if the classic controller was used on actual mainstream titles. Oh, and of course Microsoft should probably fix that whole red ring deal before plunging headlong into tech that only just works.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Like most things, everything takes some getting used to. When the Wii first came out, there were many nay-sayers as well. You can't deny that this will make somewhat of a splash with the backing of Peter and Milo(which isn't Natal).

If they try to make it somewhat natural, all will be well. Its when they add hoops and twirls to jump through with the "control scheme" of it, that will have you thinking "why am I doing this?" As of now, it seems like a neat idea, I'm at the very least, intrigued to see how it turns out.

I'm sure when video games first rolled around and people were given a joystick or a knob to scroll with, they weren't exactly enveloped into the world given to them.

 

[DrunkWithPower]

snip

Well, I do but the last time a flame war busted threw my shield... but anywho. Why make a motion controlled item? Wii has one and it fails,

Microsoft and Sony wish they could be failing like the Wii right now..

And here we go. The Wii remote was my aim, it's either, my group of friends and I all suck at the random stick waggling or there is a problem with the sticks control over the game. If it's number one or two I'm better off holding a control that I know the limits of.

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

I can agree to a point, but I'm not willing to discount it just yet. The great thing about gaming is it enables the player to interact with the world on a both conscious and subconscious level. For an example, you can play a game like Typing of the Dead much more efficiently once you've learned to touch type than when you could not.

Once you could, the keyboard stops becoming a cumbersome control scheme and instead responds more like a keypad with 44 buttons. In the same way, the game Shenmue shows how a QTE can feel more natural in a game. Instead of becoming a mechanic that relies on button-presses, the game's QTE response is tied directly with gameplay mechanics. The "A" button will always jump, the "B" button is always a catch or grapple, arrow keys respond to their requisite movements. It means that even though the flashing "B" on screen would pull away the player and force them to consider the B-button as it is on the controller, it also corresponds to catch, and action your character would do after jostling a waitress carrying tea.

I feel like NATAL has some ability to be an immersing mechanic, though decidedly one with a learning curve. At this point, I'd even say much like the Wii. In the Wii's case, it is pretty clear that it can be functional even on a large scale. The only question in my mind for NATAL is whether or not the developers will be able to make use of the control scheme. Considering the rocky history of peripherals like the EyeToy, it's particularly clear that game developers don't have a perfect idea of how to use such a peripheral, much less to any advanced extent.

I'm not willing to write it off just yet, but the learning curve will make it more difficult to be as immersive as a more natural feeling control layout.

 

[Meado]

I completely agree, my biggest problem is that you will try and do something and you can't and you'll realize why, [i/]because it's a video game[/i]. Goodbye immersion. With a controller you already know exactly what you can or cannot do.

Exactly. With a controller you quickly learn the limits of your abilities and instead focus on the best ways to apply what you can do to the current situation. All of this keeps yourself immersed. Natal is going to bring real life into this situation, reminding you that it's not the real world. Even something like subconsiously tilting your head to peer around a corner would break it. You'd wonder why the camera was moving when you weren't pushing the right-stick, and you'd remember it's because you did so in real life.

Y'know what? Let's all agree on something. NEVER buy a horror game that uses Natal.

 

[cobra_ky]

Throughout the history of gaming, we have had many different types of 'controllers' that are made to put people into the game. These include some that work:
The Guitar Hero Guitar/Drumset/Etc
And most that don't:
Gun shaped controllers (to some extent)
Steering wheels
Etc

I found that the guitars are used as a necessary part of the game, to hit the buttons and also to throw it up high to get Star Power. While guns may work with some games at arcades, general ones used at homes feel out of place holding no value and having no need that a gamepad couldn't have easily and already exceeded. Steering wheels are also clunky and so unneeded outside of the arcade. So how is Natal going to hold up?

this argument is far from compelling. arcade shooters like time crisis or house of the dead work just as well at home as they do in the arcade, and it would be ridiculous to try and play them with a controller. i don't know enough about racing sims to comment on steering wheel peripherals, but i'm not thinking about the steering wheel when i'm driving an actual car.

I for one cannot see people being absorbed into this world of Natal when for so so long gamepads have served us just fine. Not only just fine, but with comfort, with ease and posture. They have recently been designed to fill the hand and so no cramping or breaking the user into the conscious world. And for so long we have grown used to the idea of having this non-existent tool in our hands; the strings to which we hold the puppet. Changing it is an unnecessary use of money and power wasted on nothing.

there's two flaws with this argument:

1. you assume the customer base microsoft is targeting have all been using gamepads for years.

2. you completely ignore nintendo's success with the Wii and DS, let alone decades of PC gaming.



in conclusion, while this seems to be a very well-thought-out explanation of why natal does not appeal to you personally, i don't see any reason you can extrapolate your experiences to the general public.

 

[Fire Daemon]

I think that the success of Natal (is that even it's real name) will come entirely down to how well developers implement it's technology. They could very easily go with the arm flailing style of many Wii games which will break the immersion of the game or they could make the game respond to natural body movements and by doing so not break the immersion of playing the game and add some real depth to the experience.

I have a feeling however that Natal is going to be an additional part of many controller games. With Fallout 3 you really need to use a controller. Bringing up VATS and selecting the head with arm movements is not going to work but imagine if Natal studied your face and based on facial expressions and possibly tone of voice conversations would work out differently or had a greater effect on persuasion. This may be a lot of addition work for the developers and the pay off may not be worth it but can you see where I'm coming from? Natal can be used to give the player a greater range of control and interaction in a game but hey, it could also be used to make a bunch of shitty party games.

Time will tell.

 

[Wintio]

If you have to look at the controller for quick time events...you are not used to the controller. I play best at Guitar Hero with a controller, and is that not the ultimate quick time event game?

I think they meant more the situation where the b button becomes the melee button, and you instinctively know to push that when you want to beat something, but when it pops up a little red button at the bottom of the screen you are no longer thinking of it as a melee attack, but finding and pushing the button.

That said I agree with what a lot of people have said in that everything will take time to get used to... but honestly the idea of waving my arms like an idiot is not what I would look for in a game currently. And I know I'm afraid of change as much as the next person, but I've always been a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" person, at least not for something that will only deliver results as good as we have now.

If they think they can really improve gaming through this technology, more power to them, and I hope they do... but until I see this is worth the change (and the expense that will surely accompany it) I'm not going to be camping out for any releases.

On a side note, why is it that the little plastic guns we get at home aren't up to the standard at an arcade. I had Duck Hunt with my little plastic orange gun back on the SNES and I loved that game. I also love Point Blank and Time Crisis (especially Point Blank <3) at the arcades. Point Blank's accuracy can't be any better than the Wii's, and I don't even have motion plus yet, but those guns look a lot better than the little Wii-mote add on things (haven't got them either (been poor lately)) and they don't have that awesome recoil action that the Point Blank guns do. And no other system has even tried as far as I've seen. We can get a universal turnstile for DJ Hero, and a skateboard (I really want to know how they're going to simulate doing a trick on a controller with no momentum) but we can't have a gun peripheral?

Maybe all of my problems will be solved at once and Natal or whatever Sony does will let them make a good gun and let us loose through some arcade fun... but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Canadian Fodder]

I can only see frustration beyond belief of the sensors not working. Stick to what works and just make sure it still will work in the future. Until they get physical stimulants that actually make it feel like your in a game, keep that stuff in prototype form.

 

[PurpleRain]

I completely agree, my biggest problem is that you will try and do something and you can't and you'll realize why, [i/]because it's a video game[/i]. Goodbye immersion. With a controller you already know exactly what you can or cannot do.

It's kind of hard to be absorbed into a world when you are constantly aware of it.

It's kind of hard to say if it will be successful or not at this point. I'm sort of skeptical of how Natal will work and how I personally feel about it, but I'm sure there are people out there who will give it a try, so anything's possible.

I'm willing to play it if it does get big. Knowing Microsoft, a lot f money will be poured into it to try and get it off, but these are my predictions and the reasons I would see to as why it won't work.

"Why do I right this?" Is that a style thing or did you mess up?

Couldnt agree more though, its tough to say what and how they will use it. Im going to go with recent history and say it will be gimmicky party games and the like. I would hope that if they include it in "serious" games its not a must in order to play it. Only time will tell, i for one am not going to be purchasing it.

Thanks for the call. I missed that mistake.

Anyway, yeah. I can't imagine serious or violent games to be played on it either. Being from an outside or media point of view to be more 'real' would bring with it a lot more childish games.

I've got two points that rip your theory to shreds.

-Who says Natal will focus entirely on immersion, or be made for serious gameplay?
-Who says Natal won't be able to work alongside standard controllers?

Well, mostly the interview with Peter (Fable) saying that it won't need a controller. For the first point, people play games to be absorbed into it, not to be aware of it.

You're arguing gamepads for good posture? Seriously? I have to assume you weigh only 56lbs or so and fit in a school locker -- without touching the sides. Half the reason we purchased a Wii is because the controllers mean we don't have to finish an intense gaming session looking like the hunchback of Notre Dame. Seriously, unless you're a monk engaged in constant prayer, having your arms crunched in front of you is not normal posture.

And somehow you think gesturing is too conscious an action? What are you, a robot? Do you nod when you agree with something? When you want to indicate where something is, do you keep your head and eyes stiff while pointing? Gesture control is extremely natural. To get a hint of it, try using Opera or add some sort of Gesture Control widget to Firefox and work with that for a while. Then try going back to IE. You not only find that you've gotten used to the gestures in an extremely short time, but that's frustrating when they're not there.

First point: Hand posture.

Second point: Talking can be a conscious action when giving commands or planning out a course of speech. Speech is only subconscious when talking at a relaxed level.

If you have to look at the controller for quick time events...you are not used to the controller. I play best at Guitar Hero with a controller, and is that not the ultimate quick time event game? So unless I am THAT amazing, people used to game controllers should not have that much trouble aside from just being too slow sometimes or something.

Your reasoning really is just "change is scary." I am not a huge supporter of NATAL specifically, but the overall idea I am. Would you be skilled playing games using it right away? No. Were you skilled with a controller the first time? I doubt it.
If NATAL doesnt work, it wont likely be because it makes you think your actions through, but just developers doing things wrong. (Or NATAL not being what it says it is)

First point: You can also look at a controller without needing to tilt your head or eyes down. To be aware of which order of keys to press is enough to break the flow in your mind. You're used to pressing A to jump, but not used to hitting A for a cutscene in an alien pattern.

Second point: These were my predictions. I like change and if they made it and worked perfectly, I would be so happy.