Protagonists You Can't Get Behind
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Filia from Skullgirls. She doesn't do anything. Her own story consists of...
She appears in one other character's story mode.
She is pegged the protagonist because, a) She is white, boring, and you can project yourself onto her, b) because she's pretty and has a big ass (And is 16. Think of that what you will), and c) they had to muscle in an amnesia story, and d) her fighting style is kind of cool, and they want beginners to use her because she's a "easy to use, hard to master" kind of thing.
All the other characters are much more interesting, all the other characters are more capable, and all the other characters... well, they actually do something for the plot.
This, my dear Escapists, is what is called a white, maybe-heterosexual protagonist, and she serves as a viewpoint to the audience. Kind of like Piper Chapman from Orange Is The New Black, except, somehow, less interesting.
Beat up a bunch of people, find this sad robot girl who she bullied pre-amnesia, use wish to save robot girl, turn into destructive, unstoppable entity bent on destruction, all at the hands of the local mafia... for some reason that is never explained. Because the mafia are evil?
She appears in one other character's story mode.
She is pegged the protagonist because, a) She is white, boring, and you can project yourself onto her, b) because she's pretty and has a big ass (And is 16. Think of that what you will), and c) they had to muscle in an amnesia story, and d) her fighting style is kind of cool, and they want beginners to use her because she's a "easy to use, hard to master" kind of thing.
All the other characters are much more interesting, all the other characters are more capable, and all the other characters... well, they actually do something for the plot.
This, my dear Escapists, is what is called a white, maybe-heterosexual protagonist, and she serves as a viewpoint to the audience. Kind of like Piper Chapman from Orange Is The New Black, except, somehow, less interesting.
I read the book and saw the David Lynch movie.Zhukov said:
In the Movie, he seemed to be at least somewhat troubled, maybe even sympathetic.
The book on the other hand, makes him go almost god mode sue and well, it's rare that I start to root for the bad guys to win, because of him.
And then theres even a level up with his daughter...In case of competences, this guy in the book makes Batman look in whatever he's in like Inspector Gadget.
Besides that the book reads itself like a handbook or justification for islamic terror.
Prolly all out of context, but the entire mixture made it really uncomfotable to read after a while, seeing Paul bin Laden go all Jihad on his Shai Hulud on the oil... err... Spicehungry Harkonnens.
Michael Bluth went from 'the only likable character' to 'the most annoying character' at the drop of a hat. And this is Arrested Development I'm talking about. A show almost exclusively about annoying and dysfunctional humans.
Except everyone else is at least deliberately annoying or dysfunctional, which kind of makes them work - if not as human beings then at the very least as characters. Not so much with Michael. Every scene with him in it is just painful to watch. Especially in season 4.
Except everyone else is at least deliberately annoying or dysfunctional, which kind of makes them work - if not as human beings then at the very least as characters. Not so much with Michael. Every scene with him in it is just painful to watch. Especially in season 4.
Warcraft 1: Orcs get told by demons that their neighbours are bad people, offer them their blood to make them stronger. Around 95% of the Orc population doesn't see anything wrong with that and accept. Proceed to slaughter all the Draenei, and once they are either all dead or in hiding turn on each other. Guldan then gets in contact with Medivh who is possessed by the demon his mother thought she killed. They open a portal between their worlds and orcs attack a village and kill everyone but are spotted and Stormwind sends their knights to route them. Which starts the first war ending with the humans defeated and fleeing north to the other kingdoms.TheMadDoctorsCat said:
Warcraft 2: One of the orc chiefs(Doomhammer) betrays the current warchief(Blackhand) and takes control of the Horde. Orcs then start pushing north to continue wiping out all in their way for complete domination of Azeroth. Meanwhile, the refugees from Stormwind arrive in Lordaeron and all human leaders are shown the danger the orcs pose and the Alliance is formed. Elves join after initially refusing after their capital is attacked by the Orcs. Second war starts and the fight is very close until Gul'dan decides to pull off his forces to go find the tomb of the demon that possessed Medivh. Alliance then get the upper hand and push back the Horde to the Dark Portal and then destroy it.
Warcraft 2 Expansion: The Dark Portal reappears for some reason and orcs come back but this time to steal artifacts because one of their leaders back home decided it was a good idea to open a ton of different portals. This has the side-effect of destabilizing Draenor and making it blow up. Alliance heroes sacrifice their chance to go home by destroying the portal from the Draenor side to prevent Azeroth from being affected. Orcs that survived the war on the Azerothian side are put in PoW camps since they tried to commit genocide. Some of the jailers are fair, others abuse their power, like the one where Thrall was. Multiple kingdoms leave the Alliance since they don't want to help pay for the imprisonment of the Orcs and would have preferred wiping out the survivors. Dalaraan is intrigued by the fact that these bloodthirsty warriors are suddenly completely passive and try to find what caused this to happen.
Warcraft 3: Orcs are freed from their camps by Thrall and flee to Kalimdor thanks to Medivh's ghost followed by their jailors who think they are still up to no good. Meanwhile Lordaeron starts having some undead problems and as was said, Arthas starts going crazy from seeing all his people get turned into zombies and decides saving his kingdom is worth any price. He betrays his soldiers, the mercenaries he's hired and then kills his own father before leading the undead he had been fighting against after having taken Frostmourne(a cursed sword that eats the wielder's soul). Back on Kalimdor, the Orcs find some Lordaeron refugees led by Jaina who also followed Medivh's advice. Thrall try to avoid bloodshed but Grom gathers his troops and starts attacking their camps. Finally, they all meet with Medivh who talks to them about the burning legion and both teams decide to work together. They then meet the Night Elves who aren't happy to see people in their territory and attack. Grom falls for it a second and drinks some more demon blood to kill the Night Elf demi-god and then starts serving the demons. Jaina and Thrall manage to use a ritual to make Grom uncorrupted. A short time later, the Night Elves are regrouping their armies and waking up the druids. After some more fighting, the Alliance refugees, Horde and Night Elves team up and hold off the demons long enough for the world tree to be charged up and wipe out the demons.
The book version, or the show? I haven't seen the shows, but I found the book version to be decent. She's very naive, but she grew up sheltered and believing the "fairy tales" of knights and honour and such were true in real-life Westeros as well.tzimize said:
Some characters I can't get behind:
Jim Raynor
He was a cool guy in Starcraft 1 and Starcraft: Broodwar. The a romance story was forced upon us and he suddenly falls in love with the girl who slaughtered entire factions for power - including his friend Fenix. He seems to have forgotten about all this as well (writers came with like "yeah but it's been a while!".).
Mulch (From Artemis Fowl)
He's a great character, and I like him a lot. However, he turned into a walking Deus Ex machina. He seems to generate superpowers as the plot demands instead of having to work with boundaries. It just makes him a "oh he'll be fine since whatever happens he can fix it."
Ghandi
He's all playing the pacifist card and then he starts nuking cities left and right for no reason.
I always saw the main character as me. More than a lot of other games, it feels written for self-insertion; there's nothing but riding around and light platforming for the majority of the game, leading my thoughts down the question of who the girl was and why I was trying to bring her back. Wanderer doesn't do anything to endear himself because he's nothing more than a shell for you to fill.Blow_Pop said:
OT: The entire cast from Prometheus. They are all supposed to be scientists, experts in their fields; why did they agree to spend at least 4 years on an unknown mission into space, with unknown working companions? Why are they so terrible at their jobs, never showing a bit of care for each other beyond shock at the gruesome deaths?
A lot of the problems with that movie could have been smoothed over if they had some basic chemistry with each other.
Is it to cliché to say Superman? He has two of my biggest hero gripes, near invincibility and a total revolution towards killing. I mean I understand he gets beat and even dies but as the guy that was always tagged as the goody goody he was to much of a goody goody. I like hero to be hesitant but willing to kill people even if it means doing so by the millions. Chaotic good forever, being overly lawful is just as bad as being evil. All darkness must be slaughtered not be jailed, if you take joy in causing sorrow, suffer and die!
Kratos from god of war II onward's. Kratos is warned that keeping up his killing spree across Greece is going to cause trouble for him and when Zeus kills him over it Kratos gets the deluded idea he's justified in destroying the world in what's basically a childish tantrum. Zeus was 100% in the right to kill him and at the end of the third game its the ''villain'' Zeus, not Kratos who fights to save the world and restore the damage done by the war Kratos started.
Conner from Assassins creed. Conner is repeatedly shown to be flat out wrong when confronting the Templar's and can only stammer ''B-but freedom'' when he's presented with more logical standpoints then his own. He also has zero reason to be against the British other then some childish notion of ''freedom''. What had the British ever done to Conner before he started attacking them? Its the colonists who attack and oppress his kind and somehow he thinks he has to pick their side over a side that hasn't done anything to deserve his wrath. The British being tyrannical isn't shown very well and actively defied both by the Colonists in the past and conversations in the future so Conner's Childish ''freedom'' motivation doesn't do much to convince me i need to be killing those Brits.
I actually like Naruto but before he got his Messiah complex i couldn't get his motivation at all. NO! Sasuke doesn't need HELP! He betrayed everyone he cared about of his own free will, he wasn't kidnapped or something and Danzo finally putting a bounty on his head is NOT evil, its Danzo doing his job and demand the death of a terrorist that betrayed them all and attacks international leaders because the target of his unjustified revenge happens to be near. At least when Naruto believes he's the messiah he genuinely wants to help people rather then demand the world resolve's around his doomed friendship with a selfish madman.
Conner from Assassins creed. Conner is repeatedly shown to be flat out wrong when confronting the Templar's and can only stammer ''B-but freedom'' when he's presented with more logical standpoints then his own. He also has zero reason to be against the British other then some childish notion of ''freedom''. What had the British ever done to Conner before he started attacking them? Its the colonists who attack and oppress his kind and somehow he thinks he has to pick their side over a side that hasn't done anything to deserve his wrath. The British being tyrannical isn't shown very well and actively defied both by the Colonists in the past and conversations in the future so Conner's Childish ''freedom'' motivation doesn't do much to convince me i need to be killing those Brits.
I actually like Naruto but before he got his Messiah complex i couldn't get his motivation at all. NO! Sasuke doesn't need HELP! He betrayed everyone he cared about of his own free will, he wasn't kidnapped or something and Danzo finally putting a bounty on his head is NOT evil, its Danzo doing his job and demand the death of a terrorist that betrayed them all and attacks international leaders because the target of his unjustified revenge happens to be near. At least when Naruto believes he's the messiah he genuinely wants to help people rather then demand the world resolve's around his doomed friendship with a selfish madman.
Alucard's meant to be sympathetic? 0-oRelish in Chaos said:
No seriously, I never once read I was meant to sympathize with the guy. I liked him because he simply wasn't an utter pussy of a vampire (Looking at you Cullen) and got shit done in exceedingly brutal and terrifying ways.
Granted, I guess when you see his backstory it does make him mildly sympathetic (He had one helluva shitty human life) but, i never got the vibe of "FEEL SORRY FOR HIM!"
Alucard does sort of want to die, but he wants it to be under his own terms and in a way he respects: Defeat by a worth enemy that overcame the limits of mortality and slew an immortal like him.
That said, if you don't like him you don't like him and I won't try to force it. But, just find it surprising to hear that we're meant to actually sympathize with him when in truth Alucard's literally only the hero because his enemies are Vampire Nazi's.
It's telling when I find sociopaths like Zero and Caim to be more likeable and likeable then Lightning.Samael Barghest said:
I think a lot of why I like them is in how the game presents them: Yes, they're in a lot of ways utterly unlikeable assholes but the game knows and acknowledges this, even calling out their behavior. The first game merely shows Caim is simply the lesser of two evils, while the third game has no qualms about painting Zero as essentially the main villain. It also helps Zero and her companions just have a good sense of humor about stuff. In Final Fantasy XIII Lightnings behavior is neither acknowledged that much or really called out an awful lot. She just kind of does stuff and, when you think about it, is more or less the villain for the game.
In a way, I guess if you want to make an unlikeable character like that likeable you need to have their behavior be acknowledged in a satisfying way and have it come across as legitimately bad.
In other words:
OT: I see your Lightning and raise you a Vaan from Final Fantasy XII. Seriously, fuck that useless son of a *****.
An important thing to understand is that Goku is very loosely based on a mythological character, the so called "Monkey King" who while generally good in the final equasion, is also known for his irresponsibility, mischief (often times accidental), and a degree of greed and gluttony... as well as ultimately winning in the end (for the right side) despite whatever odds he might be facing. All of these traits are present in Goku to some extent (I've read a few things about it, despite not being a DBZ fan). The point behind Goku is that it's his nature, and that's why he's not called on it more often, and what's more those who love him, or become his friends, might occasionally get angry with him for his traits, but ultimately grew to like or love him knowing his nature to some extent. This is one of the big reasons why Goku goes running off on scatter brained adventures, and puts "normal" responsibility on other people.cojo965 said:
I think part of the message here is in some ways that you have to take the entire picture, and really some girls do fall for the whole "Rambling Man" thing, at the end of the day though you have to understand what your getting and that some people are not going to change, those same features you find endearing, can be annoying when taken to the level of an actual commitment. This is also somewhat mirrored in psychology where a lot of people have pointed out that the guys girls want to sleep with and have fun, are not the ones that they ultimately wind up wanting to marry and/or have kids with, and also that relationships where they try and make something work despite these kinds of personality traits tend to fall apart.
One also has to remember that there ARE things far more important than family, despite what some might argue, indeed family and those commitments can be seen as downright selfish in the big picture. Things like fighting for the general people, serving king and country, and in fiction saving the world/universe/multiverse all have to take priority. Remember that DBZ is also Japanese, where these sentiments have been taken to the extreme, and it's expected that one of the sacrifices a warrior/fighter like Goku is expected to make is in having a normal family life or environment. Your fighting, service, and training must come before everything... and sacrificing the relative selfishness of your own fantasy for that kind of perfection, those skills, and then using them for the greater good, is part of what you give up. In the case of Goku though, in going the whole "Monkey King" way, he's portrayed differently than the usual version which is the utterly emotionally repressed Samurai-type who shows no emotion under the most extreme situations, and might love his family, but is going to go serve his lord, fight for the country, or even run himself through with his own sword before their interests, and even put them to the sword as much as he loves them if honor or the greater good demands it. It's something a lot of Westerners can't inherently get behind. With Goku at least he's going to still put his other comittments first, but if his family is threatened he is going to try and have his cake and eat it too, as much as he can.... but in the end if it comes down to being a father/husband under routine conditions and wandering and refining his skills, the wandering and refinement must come first, and in his case it's his nature rather than a rational commitment. Get what I'm saying?
When it comes to Persona 3, I think your kind of missing part of the point of the game. The protagonist in that game actually doesn't seek out the situation he/she is in, and actually most of the other characters he "brings down" are all involved in it to begin with. What's more the entire theme of the game is that time is limited, and he even has death visiting his bedroom to sort of remind him of this fact (and also gently nudge him towards saving everyone, while also granting some of his own power). The point is about making the most of what time you have, and being fantasy the game actually puts a very direct, magically themed time limit into place. When you consider what the protagonist of that game is dealing with (which on some levels makes it a horror game) I think he was actually fairly upbeat considering the circumstances. Also don't forget the intended symbolism in connection with the message in terms of all the characters unlocking their powers by shooting themselves in the head with a gunlike object.... that wasn't done specifically to get a rise out of people, it's sort of a statement connected to the game premise and the inevitability of death, combined with the self sacrifice everyone is involved in for the benefit of the world.
That said, I will say that I find a lot of more recent "tainted" heroes and protagonists harder to relate with rather than the ones I grew up with. I also tend to wind up thinking in opposite terms from you when family is involved, whenever I see someone going to epic lengths to save their family/children I can empathize up until the point where they start making decisions that hurt other people and their families without any kind of other greater principle involved, and then we're supposed to say empathize with the fact that some mother or father let a dozen people die because it was "to save their kids" or whatever. I understand the emotional aspects of it, but overall I just can't accept that
as being a heroic act or an explanation that redeems other actions.
To extend the above to an extent, let's look at Goku again. Like it or not Goku is one of the few beings that can actually step up and fight at the level needed to protect his world, while it has other protectors besides him, he almost always winds up playing a key role, even if it's just to slow down some enemy a bit while another character eventually finishes things. As irresponsible as he is, entire planets full of people continue to exist and live because he wanders around, trains, above everything, and ultimately keeps pace with the latest threats. If he was to stay home and be a good dad, trillions of people would die, heck all of reality might literally be destroyed. It represents some truly borked priorities to say that he should stay home and raise his kids, and let everyone else die, which is where such arguments ultimately go. What's more him not acting like he does would ultimately mean he, his wife, and kids
would also likely die as well. Now granted, a lot of the DBZ "rogues gallery" does exist because of Goku, but not all
of it, and when your dealing with guys who blow up planets for lulz all it takes is one of these guys to not be
stopped in the end.
In the scope of fiction and comics this issue has been addressed in the past, with question like "what if this character retired and decided to raise a family", and as a general rule it almost never works out well for anyone, including them. Oftentimes ending with the hero having to give it all up and come back out to fight anyway, oftentimes with the death of their family caused by them stopping their heroics being a part of it.
But then again, understand we're talking within fiction, not within real life. The closest thing that applies to ordinary people is probably things like the military, police, or fire and rescue. The commitment those jobs involve and the constant risk, which come at the expense of friends and family in many cases, along with the constant risk of death, is one of the reasons why those jobs are so well respected, and giving all of that up, or putting pressure on it (causing high divorce rates and the like) is one of the reasons those people are considered to be heroic and generally fairly well respected. Granted some dude whose a cop isn't saving the universe, but when he intervenes on your behalf with all that training and experience, your damn happy he's there. Ditto if some fireman takes out a wall so you can escape a burning building or whatever.
Sansa: Both versions. Mind I've not read any further than the shows have gotten, so no spoilers please. I know she was sheltered and stuff but good lord. All kinds of shit happens to her and her sister, her sister wise up REAL fast, while Sansa cant seem to learn that water is wet even when she's drowning.Thedutchjelle said:
Jim Raynor: Agree! A more annoying drunk idiot I dont think I've ever seen (at least in wings of liberty, I liked him a bit more in Heart of the Swarm)
Mulch: Dont know this one.
Ghandi: Fucking Ghandi, all smug with his bald head and stuff.
Ah, I heard the VN was much better, but never really got interested after the anime killed it for me. Hmm... Maybe I ought to throw it back onto the heap of 'to play' VNs.NeutralDrow said:
Is Fate/Zero better? I steered clear of it due to the impression /Stay left on me, but if its an improvement, I might look into it. T'would be a shame to have one anime ruin an entire series for me.
Considering you compared it to Kara no Kyoukai (which I loved), it's got to be pretty good.
OT: Another one! Kotarou from Lucia's route in Rewrite. Despite Lucia's route being my favourite for some reason, he acts sooo stupid again. Unlike Fate/Stay night, I actually understand what he was trying to do, but when you have a girl who has, and has admitted to having :
surgery/genetic engineering performed on her that has caused her to expel toxins that can instantly kill just about anything, trying to help her through her guilt by saying 'ITS NOT YOUR FAULT, IT WAS JUST A COINCIDENCE!' is not going to do anything.
Through out the entire route, he was going 'ITS JUST A COINCIDENCE! NOTHING IS WRONG HERE!' when he was able to witness paranormal shit happening everywhere around him, and even gets a massive purple hand print of poison slapped on his arm by the 'ghost' he was chasing. Any person with half a brain would start to think after the third pane of glass, that something might actually be happening, but no. Apparently all the glass around him shattering a the mere mention of the ghost could never be anything other than just unfortunate luck.
Through out the entire route, he was going 'ITS JUST A COINCIDENCE! NOTHING IS WRONG HERE!' when he was able to witness paranormal shit happening everywhere around him, and even gets a massive purple hand print of poison slapped on his arm by the 'ghost' he was chasing. Any person with half a brain would start to think after the third pane of glass, that something might actually be happening, but no. Apparently all the glass around him shattering a the mere mention of the ghost could never be anything other than just unfortunate luck.
I can actually sort of see why he did this, because he was so desperate to alleviate Lucia of her guilt, buuuut... ... yeah. That tidbit aside, I actually really liked it, but ugh. Stupidity.
After seeing The Animatrix, the humans!
[spoiler = POTENTIAL SPOILERS]People build robots to aid them in their lives and all is well. The robots start becoming self-aware and in an act of self defense a robot kills it's owner. The court rules that robots aren't entitled to the same rights as humans and that robot is destroyed. Then other robots and robot sympathizers take to the streets and protest, and the government, who fear a robot uprising, set out to destroy all robots.
The surviving robots then escape and set up their own independent nation. It's commerce does so well that it makes the other nations look shit in comparison and the robot nation booms economically. The other human nations get jealous and put a trade embargo on the robot nation, so the robots then send diplomats to try and peacefully broker a solution. They are rejected.
The humans then drop nuclear bombs on the robot nation, however they survive and understandably launch a counter offensive. As an act of desperation the humans block out the sun to try and cripple the robot's reliance on solar power. The robots eventually win and instead of putting the rest of humanity to the sword they capture them and pop them in the Matrix. Originally the Matrix was supposed to be a paradise with no suffering and lots of fun. You thought you were free, but you were instead imagining it and being used to power the robots. But noooo, the human mind could grasp the concept of unrestrained awesomeness so the robots had to rejig the Matrix to be shitty and include disease, murder and evil.[/spoiler]
Serious, fuck the humans; they brought it on themselves.
[spoiler = POTENTIAL SPOILERS]People build robots to aid them in their lives and all is well. The robots start becoming self-aware and in an act of self defense a robot kills it's owner. The court rules that robots aren't entitled to the same rights as humans and that robot is destroyed. Then other robots and robot sympathizers take to the streets and protest, and the government, who fear a robot uprising, set out to destroy all robots.
The surviving robots then escape and set up their own independent nation. It's commerce does so well that it makes the other nations look shit in comparison and the robot nation booms economically. The other human nations get jealous and put a trade embargo on the robot nation, so the robots then send diplomats to try and peacefully broker a solution. They are rejected.
The humans then drop nuclear bombs on the robot nation, however they survive and understandably launch a counter offensive. As an act of desperation the humans block out the sun to try and cripple the robot's reliance on solar power. The robots eventually win and instead of putting the rest of humanity to the sword they capture them and pop them in the Matrix. Originally the Matrix was supposed to be a paradise with no suffering and lots of fun. You thought you were free, but you were instead imagining it and being used to power the robots. But noooo, the human mind could grasp the concept of unrestrained awesomeness so the robots had to rejig the Matrix to be shitty and include disease, murder and evil.[/spoiler]
Serious, fuck the humans; they brought it on themselves.
During the entire second half of Death Note, I could not get behind L's replacements. Also Kira got very annoying. The Xanatos pileup got also rather ridiculous.
In fact... just don't watch the second half.
In the original Civ game, he was supposed to be the least aggressive person in the game and was the only leader who's desire to use nukes was set to 0. However, his default tech progress was to adopt Democracy, which lowers that value by 1, but since the code didn't understand negative numbers, it looped him to the highest possible value, making him over 100 times more likely to use nukes than anyone else.
The guys at Firaxis found this so funny that they've intentionally kept him nuke happy, ever since.
In fact... just don't watch the second half.
His character makes allot more sense, in the first game, when you realize that it's set up like a Greek tragedy and that you're supposed to pity him, rather than be rooting for him. However, the sequels ruin that.JimB said:
Heh he he. There's a history behind that.Thedutchjelle said:
In the original Civ game, he was supposed to be the least aggressive person in the game and was the only leader who's desire to use nukes was set to 0. However, his default tech progress was to adopt Democracy, which lowers that value by 1, but since the code didn't understand negative numbers, it looped him to the highest possible value, making him over 100 times more likely to use nukes than anyone else.
The guys at Firaxis found this so funny that they've intentionally kept him nuke happy, ever since.
In the interests of fairness, I should note that Shirou provokes divided opinion even in the game, and he's at his weakest in the first route. But he's still much better than in the tv anime (especially taking the later routes into account), and the story overall is great. And if you've played Rewrite, I probably don't need to warn you about game length.Raven_Operative said:
I admit, I'm mostly speaking from hearsay on Fate/Zero (which for somewhat irrational reasons I haven't actually watched yet), but almost everything I've heard about it is good. If you do get interested in both the Fate/Stay Night VN or the Fate/Zero anime, give some thought as to which you consume first. Fate/Zero is a prequel, and it spoils a couple of things about the game (literally the first episode spoils the very last twist of the game).
Avoiding the spoiler, since I haven't read Rewrite yet (despite my firm devotion to both Romeo Tanaka and Key Visual Arts; blame my huge VN backlog), but I suspect I felt something similar for Hisao in Katawa Shoujo.
Overall, I liked the guy, and I guess I couldn't really blame him too much for nearly botching his relationships with Hanako and Rin...but man, was it hard to not get frustrated with him. I could see where he was making his missteps, and I understood where those two were coming from far better than he did, which made me want to punch him a few times ("Hanako doesn't want you to treat her with the kid gloves, you moron! Haven't she and Lilly made that clear?!").