Psychonauts and the Tragedy of Used Games
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
Xbox Live Arcade already has beaucoup titles that you couldn't ever get off the shelves at GameStop, Marathon: Durandal among them.
As for me, however, going to the local store and sifting through their immense trove of used Xbox games (most of which I don't want and/or are incompatible) is more convenient than downloading and having to eat HD space. Having the disc that works is better.
As for me, however, going to the local store and sifting through their immense trove of used Xbox games (most of which I don't want and/or are incompatible) is more convenient than downloading and having to eat HD space. Having the disc that works is better.
Hengst, perfect point! all those non-backwards compatible games are left in the dust on any new hardware (same with the PS3), meaning second hand would still be the only way to ever play them, right? Virtual consoles/digital delivery systems also suck for the most part price-wise, with no sales or discounts or reasonable starting prices in some cases, and many people might prefer to play them on the original hardware (even if that hardware is only a few years old...)
On the opinions bounded around about game shops making money, I'd need some actual figures, because I sure as damn don't have any in front of me to argue one way or another, so those are moot points really
- a shame, it'd be something really good to discuss!
On the opinions bounded around about game shops making money, I'd need some actual figures, because I sure as damn don't have any in front of me to argue one way or another, so those are moot points really
- a shame, it'd be something really good to discuss!Actually, the Xbox 360 has a bunch of backwards-compatible games, and the list [http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibilitygameslist.htm] is updated all the time. Pretty much requires you to have a HD and Internet installed for compatibility updates, though.
Sony doesn't even display a list for PS3's backwards compatibility, it makes you type in the game name [http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus] and play guessing games. Thankfully, the Internet provides. [http://www.ps3comp.com/]
Sony doesn't even display a list for PS3's backwards compatibility, it makes you type in the game name [http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus] and play guessing games. Thankfully, the Internet provides. [http://www.ps3comp.com/]
The used car analogy doesn't really work simply because car dealers make a significant amount of money on selling new cars over MSRP. If you stepped into your average car dealership one that sold both used and new cars I doubt that the instant you walk up to a sales associate saying that you want to purchase a new car they would recommend you buy a used one instead. That and car makers actually reward dealerships that sell large numbers of new cars giving them rewards.
Truth is car companies make money from the maintenance done on cars. Just look up the price of a new set factory headlights (not just the bulb, but the actual assembly for my car the price is well over 200 dollars [http://replacement.car-stuff.com/parts/carstuff/wizard.jsp?year=2005&make=TO&model=SOL-CPE-005&category=P&part=Headlight%20Assembly&returnurl=null&dp=true&showdc=true#top]) and you will see that they make their on products that support the car not just the car itself.
That really doesn't work for games because the more resources a developer spends making new content for a released title the less resources they are using to make a new title. Obviously that isn't true for all developers, it's just the result of limited resources and companies trying to use them to the best of their abilities.
A number of things need to change for used games to go away. The price point on new games would need to be lower, the amount of money retailers make from actually selling new games would need to be extremely higher than it is now, and a method of selling out of print games would needed to found. If that meant going the download route like Sony's PSN is doing or a way of reprinting on demand I don't know.
Until those things come together used games are here to stay unless one of the groups in the industry takes a stiff stand against used games. For example if EA said we will no longer sell game through Gamestop because of their used game trade. It's probably more likely that people would be living on Mars before that happened.
Truth is car companies make money from the maintenance done on cars. Just look up the price of a new set factory headlights (not just the bulb, but the actual assembly for my car the price is well over 200 dollars [http://replacement.car-stuff.com/parts/carstuff/wizard.jsp?year=2005&make=TO&model=SOL-CPE-005&category=P&part=Headlight%20Assembly&returnurl=null&dp=true&showdc=true#top]) and you will see that they make their on products that support the car not just the car itself.
That really doesn't work for games because the more resources a developer spends making new content for a released title the less resources they are using to make a new title. Obviously that isn't true for all developers, it's just the result of limited resources and companies trying to use them to the best of their abilities.
A number of things need to change for used games to go away. The price point on new games would need to be lower, the amount of money retailers make from actually selling new games would need to be extremely higher than it is now, and a method of selling out of print games would needed to found. If that meant going the download route like Sony's PSN is doing or a way of reprinting on demand I don't know.
Until those things come together used games are here to stay unless one of the groups in the industry takes a stiff stand against used games. For example if EA said we will no longer sell game through Gamestop because of their used game trade. It's probably more likely that people would be living on Mars before that happened.
J. I meant the games which are not backwards compatible, and likely never will be, I know there are a lot which are, which is good, but really the way to play them is, again, getting them secondhand
And LxDarko, how on earth can industry stop this, when it is perfectly legal in most of the world to resell such things? Do you honestly think the film and music industry is dying from second hand sales of their releases? Those two might say, for rare and unpublished media, it is reliant on second hand sales for a lot of older content, the same with games. It isn't simply black and white, like the article says, its a completely grey issue and its got positive and negative aspects for everyone.
And LxDarko, how on earth can industry stop this, when it is perfectly legal in most of the world to resell such things? Do you honestly think the film and music industry is dying from second hand sales of their releases? Those two might say, for rare and unpublished media, it is reliant on second hand sales for a lot of older content, the same with games. It isn't simply black and white, like the article says, its a completely grey issue and its got positive and negative aspects for everyone.
I should have worded that better. What I meant was getting rid of or reducing used game sales in major retail chains. Selling a used game is legal and can never be stopped nor should it be.Andrew Armstrong said:
However, when one of the biggest video game retailers in the U.S. is best known as a pawn shop for games, and with other major retailers such as Best Buy and Circuit City starting to follow suit I do think there are steps that can be taken to reduce the impact of used game sales on the industry.
Yeah, but if we see Best Buy and Circuit city get involved, it will make things better for the consumers, as now you have 3 different pawn shops you can go to for selling a used title. This for me is key as it will increase the amount we get for trading in games. I like a competitive market.
The Internet has ruined pawn shopping for everyone, because everyone with a computer has the option of using ebay. Try going into a real pawn shop today and find something cheap and wonderful like they used to have. Now it's all overpriced junk, and a LOT of video games for top dollar.
Competition doesn't seem to help resale markets. I don't know if it ever has.
Competition doesn't seem to help resale markets. I don't know if it ever has.
I agree with a lot of the article; and I'd somehow never quite thought of the idea that if there is a pre-owned copy out there, it means it has sold new to someone (doh!).
But what I find really pestilential -- and I suspect is where the developers really have their beef -- is this practice (at least in the UK) of putting pre-owned games right next to new releases, often even in the first/second week of release, priced 5 pounds cheaper. I see it every week: new game 39.99; pre-owned 34.99. That's pure naked profit for the retailer and nothing for the developer, right at launch. That must really be painful -- and it's something that doesn't happen for any other used product, as far as I know. Can you imagine a major record retailer putting used copies next to new product in the charts?
But what I find really pestilential -- and I suspect is where the developers really have their beef -- is this practice (at least in the UK) of putting pre-owned games right next to new releases, often even in the first/second week of release, priced 5 pounds cheaper. I see it every week: new game 39.99; pre-owned 34.99. That's pure naked profit for the retailer and nothing for the developer, right at launch. That must really be painful -- and it's something that doesn't happen for any other used product, as far as I know. Can you imagine a major record retailer putting used copies next to new product in the charts?
I think this article overstates the benefits of pre-owned games "spreading the word" and bringing in new players. Many people simply aren't prepared to pay £30 - £40 for a game.
That doesn't mean second hand sales should be banned. It's part of the contract when an item is sold. The item becomes the buyers property, to do with as they please. Every industry has to deal with second hand sales and economically the damage isn't as large as it may seem at first glance.
A person who always buys games new, has more money to buy games if they sell their games on. Publishers indirectly get some extra sales due to the second hand market.
However game retailers are sealing their own fate by pushing second hand games alongside new titles. Publishers rightly hate this. In the long term I believe they will only sell games via digital download, it will just take a while to get the public used to this idea.
That doesn't mean second hand sales should be banned. It's part of the contract when an item is sold. The item becomes the buyers property, to do with as they please. Every industry has to deal with second hand sales and economically the damage isn't as large as it may seem at first glance.
A person who always buys games new, has more money to buy games if they sell their games on. Publishers indirectly get some extra sales due to the second hand market.
However game retailers are sealing their own fate by pushing second hand games alongside new titles. Publishers rightly hate this. In the long term I believe they will only sell games via digital download, it will just take a while to get the public used to this idea.
Well, yes. I've seen a lot of (usually independent) music stores who buy back CDs and then resell them.splode said:
Also: houses, cars, books, and computers are all sold, new and used, by the same people.
(Imagine the next sentence being spoken with an echo effect) This is why digital distribution is The Future.
It keeps sellers from having to compete with their own product. Imagine how happy car dealerships would be if someone said "Now you can sell cars with no price competition from used vehicles, and you don't have to pay the overhead costs for lot storage!"
p.s. Malygris, buy Psychonauts already. It's so worth it.
I agree wholeheartedly. I read your initial article and heard you were waiting for a new graphics card for BioShock- which means you game on the PC. Get Psychonauts on Steam, you'll again be voting for a good game with your purchases, unlike used games. You can also get it on GameTap.Hengst2404 said:
I think the real "tragedy" of Psychonauts, and why Croshaw called us a all a "craven douche," is how poorly the game sold in its first three months of release, which is what publishers use to benchmark the success of console games. PC games take a little longer to get rolling, but the console market is an explosion (and sell-out) in the first month, followed by a game being outof print a year later. Your only option, then, is to get a great game used. It's unfortunate that the video game market, especially with console games, only really takes into account the behavior of the "game of the month" buyers.
It's good for game companies to offer paid downloads for games they're not making actual physical copies of, that way they get to sell the game without having to spend money on store distribution. Perhaps bonaparte is right, and we're heading towards a day where that's the only way to get new games, they do away with physical copies altogether.
I do, however, think that they could stand to lower the price a bit for downloads, since the overhead is lower, but I can see some marketing reasons behind that, so it's their call.
However, there are a lot of older games made by indie developers that aren't around anymore, so buying those legally won't do the manufacturers any good, even if there was some way to GET them legally, since I can't find most of them on any of the "ethical" game download sites, such as Steam (Slightly OT: while I can see business reasons behind NOT lowering the prices of games available first-hand on Steam, I fail to see any reason to hold onto the licenses for THOSE games. How can you lose a profit margin you don't have?)
Now, I realize that you were primarily talking about gaming stores that stock both secondhand games AND new games alongside them. And the vintage game stores where I hunt for SNES and Genesis cartridges don't exactly make a habit of stocking brand-new games. But I think it reflects on the whole issue of secondhand game sales, in that I think game companies should really look into that.
And I think they are starting to. Nintendo's decision to allow gamers to purchase vintage games for the old systems for download on the Wii was some of the happiest news I'd ever heard. That comes on the heels of the "bundle packs" being produced for the Gamecube that included a bunch of old games on one GC disc (the Sonic Mega Collection was great). The lower prices of the downloads provides an incentive as well (though they're still not as cheap as they are at the second-hand bookstores in town, but they make up for that with the greater availability and lack of damage to the disc or cartridge).
Sorry, this is a bit tangental. Now, the main appeal of secondhand games is, of course, the lower prices. But another thing that appeals to some shoppers is, as one person mentioned, the randomness of the selection. You never know what a secondhand game shelf is going to have in stock from one day to the next, and that's actually a rather exciting sensation that will be difficult to replicate. But that's just a little thing.
I do, however, think that they could stand to lower the price a bit for downloads, since the overhead is lower, but I can see some marketing reasons behind that, so it's their call.
However, there are a lot of older games made by indie developers that aren't around anymore, so buying those legally won't do the manufacturers any good, even if there was some way to GET them legally, since I can't find most of them on any of the "ethical" game download sites, such as Steam (Slightly OT: while I can see business reasons behind NOT lowering the prices of games available first-hand on Steam, I fail to see any reason to hold onto the licenses for THOSE games. How can you lose a profit margin you don't have?)
Now, I realize that you were primarily talking about gaming stores that stock both secondhand games AND new games alongside them. And the vintage game stores where I hunt for SNES and Genesis cartridges don't exactly make a habit of stocking brand-new games. But I think it reflects on the whole issue of secondhand game sales, in that I think game companies should really look into that.
And I think they are starting to. Nintendo's decision to allow gamers to purchase vintage games for the old systems for download on the Wii was some of the happiest news I'd ever heard. That comes on the heels of the "bundle packs" being produced for the Gamecube that included a bunch of old games on one GC disc (the Sonic Mega Collection was great). The lower prices of the downloads provides an incentive as well (though they're still not as cheap as they are at the second-hand bookstores in town, but they make up for that with the greater availability and lack of damage to the disc or cartridge).
Sorry, this is a bit tangental. Now, the main appeal of secondhand games is, of course, the lower prices. But another thing that appeals to some shoppers is, as one person mentioned, the randomness of the selection. You never know what a secondhand game shelf is going to have in stock from one day to the next, and that's actually a rather exciting sensation that will be difficult to replicate. But that's just a little thing.
Of course, this all started with worrying about EB getting the profit and the expense of DoubleFine. Well, we know where the designer at least ended up... Why not split the difference between what you paid pre-owned (ah, I miss the days when it was OK to say second hand...) and the full retail price and send it off to the deserving toe rags to distribute as they see fit.
P.S. Yahtzee conclusively proves that it is possible to be reincarnated while you are still alive, and only the fact that we share the same spirited sense of humour prevents me from sueing me, er... him, uh... I
Oh you know what I/he/me means.
P.S. Yahtzee conclusively proves that it is possible to be reincarnated while you are still alive, and only the fact that we share the same spirited sense of humour prevents me from sueing me, er... him, uh... I
Oh you know what I/he/me means.
It's interesting to look back on this argument now that Xbox Originals has launched and people can now download Xbox titles like "Pyschonauts" straight onto their Xbox 360. Sure, the amount Microsoft is charging for the games is a bit much considering the majority of titles could be found in a "Used Games" section for less than $10, but it's a step closer to completely digital distribution.
As for me, personally, I buy used games because:
-cost; me like less pay
-I can find games that would be hard to get elsewhere
-the thrill of finding a sweet deal in one of those overflowing bins
However, unlike most people, I very, very rarely sell my games because I feel I would regret my decision (I just know that 5 months later, I'll get that itch to play Prince of Persia once again) and the fact that you get a measly amount for your offerings, anyway. I suppose, in that sense, I am preventing more people from using my copy, and therefore I am the good guy (obviously).
*EDIT* Terribly sorry for the huge bump, but this article just caught my eye and I felt like responding. Besides, this ongoing argument is fun to think about.
As for me, personally, I buy used games because:
-cost; me like less pay
-I can find games that would be hard to get elsewhere
-the thrill of finding a sweet deal in one of those overflowing bins
However, unlike most people, I very, very rarely sell my games because I feel I would regret my decision (I just know that 5 months later, I'll get that itch to play Prince of Persia once again) and the fact that you get a measly amount for your offerings, anyway. I suppose, in that sense, I am preventing more people from using my copy, and therefore I am the good guy (obviously).
*EDIT* Terribly sorry for the huge bump, but this article just caught my eye and I felt like responding. Besides, this ongoing argument is fun to think about.
Indeed, and, would've missed this article if not for that, thanks
I buy used games all the time, and, if the store is stu....easy about it, they'll sometimes put a game up in the previously owned section for far less than what it's actually worth, usually I've only seen this in video stores etc. that don't primarily sell video/computer games.
As for PC titles, I've always been under the impression it was a bad thing to buy a used PC title, as, you are I understood, running the risk of a virus or worse whenever you install it. Maybe I'm wrong, and have missed a lot of titles I could have got cheaper, or at least cheaper than Explosiv, Sold Out Software, PC Gamer Presents etc. But, it just seems that the content with PC games is just...easier to manipulate somehow, that you don't really know what you're getting...
I buy used games all the time, and, if the store is stu....easy about it, they'll sometimes put a game up in the previously owned section for far less than what it's actually worth, usually I've only seen this in video stores etc. that don't primarily sell video/computer games.
As for PC titles, I've always been under the impression it was a bad thing to buy a used PC title, as, you are I understood, running the risk of a virus or worse whenever you install it. Maybe I'm wrong, and have missed a lot of titles I could have got cheaper, or at least cheaper than Explosiv, Sold Out Software, PC Gamer Presents etc. But, it just seems that the content with PC games is just...easier to manipulate somehow, that you don't really know what you're getting...
A very well written article, and I agree with many of its points.
I've been a manager for 2 different games companies in the UK over the past 6 years. One of them was a big chain, and I currently manage a store for an independent company.
In my opinon (I've got no access to the company's financial information or anything like that), the independent company that I run a store for now, might not be open if it wasn't for the preowned games market. Either that or they wouldn't be doing as well. New games don't make all that much profit for the smaller companies, as they cannot buy in bulk as much as the larger chains and supermarkets do. And some publishers are notorious for having high cost prices on games, and only offering discount to companies buying a bazillion copies for their 300+ shops.
Here's an example. A new game is released on the 360, and the cost price to the independent retailer is £32, seeing as they may be buying 30 copies (depends on the popularity of the title/amount of shops they have). First of all, since we're in the UK, we have to add VAT on to that before looking at any sort of profit. VAT's 17.5%. So already we're up to £37.60. The game goes out on shelf at £49.99, looking to make the independent retailer £12.40. Nice one, you may think.
However, the chain stores and the supermarkets have already gotten a better deal on the game, and are able to put it out on shelf at £39.99 and still make a half decent profit, seeing as they're buying thousands of copies. From this one of two things will happen, either the indie has to lower their shelf price in order to stop people just walking down the road and buying it, making them a paltry £2.40 profit. Or, they leave it at that price, and it sits there until eventually they're forced to drop it further and sell it for a loss just to get rid of it.
Now I know I've used a costly example, and to be fair it's the "worst case" scenario. Though you can still apply the same logic to any cost price - if it's £25 for the indie then the chains will still get it cheaper, it just means it may be a game that has an SRP of £34.99 instead. And, a lot of companies (mainly supermarkets, but some of the larger chain stores too) will put out a game on shelf that they're making pittance on, in a bid to get the customer into the store in the hope that while the customer's there, they'll spend more money on other things with a higher profit margin.
Preowned games are a good money-maker for the smaller companies like the one I work for. Also, I do agree that a lot of people can't afford to go out and buy a brand new game, so they'll either buy the preowned one or just not bother.
What I see a lot of too, is people coming across an older title (say, Rainbow Six Vegas, just for example) for around £15, and buying it because it's cheap and they want to give it a go. Then, that customer comes back a few weeks later a preorders a brand new copy of Rainbow Six Vegas 2 because they like the first one so much. Then they branch out into other Tom Clancy games like Ghost Recon and the likes.
Preowned games do a lot less harm to the industry than most people think. As I've said in a previous thread, I remember trading in Mega Drive games about 14 years ago to get the latest one, and have been trading in games ever since. If the games industry is doing as well as it is, after at least 14 years of trade-ins and preowned games being around, then it certainly can't be a bad thing.
Lastly, apologies for the huge post...I tend to ramble a little...
I've been a manager for 2 different games companies in the UK over the past 6 years. One of them was a big chain, and I currently manage a store for an independent company.
In my opinon (I've got no access to the company's financial information or anything like that), the independent company that I run a store for now, might not be open if it wasn't for the preowned games market. Either that or they wouldn't be doing as well. New games don't make all that much profit for the smaller companies, as they cannot buy in bulk as much as the larger chains and supermarkets do. And some publishers are notorious for having high cost prices on games, and only offering discount to companies buying a bazillion copies for their 300+ shops.
Here's an example. A new game is released on the 360, and the cost price to the independent retailer is £32, seeing as they may be buying 30 copies (depends on the popularity of the title/amount of shops they have). First of all, since we're in the UK, we have to add VAT on to that before looking at any sort of profit. VAT's 17.5%. So already we're up to £37.60. The game goes out on shelf at £49.99, looking to make the independent retailer £12.40. Nice one, you may think.
However, the chain stores and the supermarkets have already gotten a better deal on the game, and are able to put it out on shelf at £39.99 and still make a half decent profit, seeing as they're buying thousands of copies. From this one of two things will happen, either the indie has to lower their shelf price in order to stop people just walking down the road and buying it, making them a paltry £2.40 profit. Or, they leave it at that price, and it sits there until eventually they're forced to drop it further and sell it for a loss just to get rid of it.
Now I know I've used a costly example, and to be fair it's the "worst case" scenario. Though you can still apply the same logic to any cost price - if it's £25 for the indie then the chains will still get it cheaper, it just means it may be a game that has an SRP of £34.99 instead. And, a lot of companies (mainly supermarkets, but some of the larger chain stores too) will put out a game on shelf that they're making pittance on, in a bid to get the customer into the store in the hope that while the customer's there, they'll spend more money on other things with a higher profit margin.
Preowned games are a good money-maker for the smaller companies like the one I work for. Also, I do agree that a lot of people can't afford to go out and buy a brand new game, so they'll either buy the preowned one or just not bother.
What I see a lot of too, is people coming across an older title (say, Rainbow Six Vegas, just for example) for around £15, and buying it because it's cheap and they want to give it a go. Then, that customer comes back a few weeks later a preorders a brand new copy of Rainbow Six Vegas 2 because they like the first one so much. Then they branch out into other Tom Clancy games like Ghost Recon and the likes.
Preowned games do a lot less harm to the industry than most people think. As I've said in a previous thread, I remember trading in Mega Drive games about 14 years ago to get the latest one, and have been trading in games ever since. If the games industry is doing as well as it is, after at least 14 years of trade-ins and preowned games being around, then it certainly can't be a bad thing.
Lastly, apologies for the huge post...I tend to ramble a little...