Query: Are JRPGs getting worse or am I just getting old?

[PotluckBrigand]

Preface: This isn't intended to be inflammatory. I am genuinely curious how people feel. I didn't post this as a poll because, well, I don't really care about poll results... I'd just like some input from fellow gamers.

I've been playing games for a long time. Long enough in fact that some of the people that inhabit these forums weren't even alive when I got my Sega Genesis and began my long, storied journey (and trust me, young folk... when you're my age and you start realizing stuff like that, it can be humbling). In the mid-90's, after I got my PlayStation, I fell in love with Role-Playing Games. Like many people, Final Fantasy VII introduced me to a world of visual interactive story-telling that I hadn't experienced before. For others, of course, it started even earlier than that with games like Crono Trigger, Earthbound, or even the original Dragon Warrior of Final Fantasy. For still OTHERS it may have started even later with solid PS2 titles like Shadow Hearts, any of the Shin Megami Tensei series, or (yes) Final Fantasy X.

I loved all of those games (and many more!) and I found myself saying more often than anything else "Man... I wish I had another sweet RPG to play." I say that still, but the difference was that back then, I could still FIND good RPGs to play.

So what happened? Did something happen? Our Final Fantasy VIIs and Persona 3s (I hesitate to say Persona 4 because that game isn't even four years old, and because of that stands out as an almost singular exception to my thesis) have been replaced by Eternal Sonatas, White Knight Chronicles, and Agarest Wars. Agarest War 2, in fact, was what got me thinking about this while I was riding the bus back from trading in the copy I bought THIS week.

None of those games are TERRIBLE by most measures. They are serviceable, but that's about as charitable as I feel like being to them. I've spent a lot of time sitting in front of JRPGs waiting for them to get fun or interesting and end up just going back to Fallout or Skyrim to get my Role-Playing jollies... and those BARELY have stories at all.

So I guess my main question is... does anyone else feel this way? Are these games actually worse than those of yore or am I just getting cynical? True, I know I am not as engaged by Japanese Teenagers' antics as I (somewhat ashamedly) was in High School, but Persona engaged me better than perhaps any game of any time or generation, so I don't think that's it. But on the other hand... while I can still play FF7 without a problem, I find I have no patience for games like FF9 or Xenogears anymore... so it could be even the classics are losing their appeal.

Just curious what anyone my age, older, or even younger thinks. If you're the age I was when I loved anything Japanese... what do you think of JRPGs these days?

 

[Launcelot111]

For big console JRPGs, I definitely think that they've gone downhill in both quality and quantity in recent years. Aside from the Tales and Disgaea series, which in my book are consistently solid but not particularly innovative, I can't think of any JRPG that's really impressed me. Of the handful I haven't played, very few look appealing. I don't know if it is getting older or if it's just these particulars, but the Atelier series and Hyperdimension Neptunia look like absurd anime drivel in a way that I just don't remember from in the past.

I haven't played Xenoblade Chronicles or any other of the Project Rainfall or whatever games, so no comment.

The DS had a lot of good JRPGs, and the PSP had Persona 3 Portable (which is all it needs, but presumably other JRPGs were released), but for consoles, I think the PS2 had good ones in such numbers and in such a broad range of styles that the sudden disappearance of the genre is disappointing

 

[Swyftstar]

I am older than you. There was a time when if I wasn't in the middle of a good jrpg I didn't feel right. I would go out and get a new one whenever I finished one on top of whatever else I was playing. Now, I haven't been able to get through a jrpg besides Dragon Quest IX since the PS2. I keep trying too. I think we may have just lost our patience for random battle grinding and endless mazes which our obsessive compulsiveness cause us to explore every nook and cranny of. I could be wrong though, maybe the new ones just suck. I don't remember the old ones being so incredible cheesy or tedious.

 

[Berenzen]

Your taste is probably changing- it happens to all of us. I would argue that there are as many JRPGs that are tripe as there are MMSes that are tripe. Some recent JRPGS that I would argue that are pretty strong that have come out in recent times are Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, Xenoblade Chronicles and The World Ends With You.

The biggest problem is that JRPGs are fairly linear, and making the world seem large a la PS1 final fantasies is expensive if the developer is going for a more artistic look. That's why the above games work- Golden Sun and TWEWY both use sprites rather than fully 3d rendered models, and Xenoblade is cel-shaded- which means that more money can be spent in places other than graphical design- such as making larger open worlds. Recent JRPGs that have focuses more on realistic graphics (FFXIII comes to mind), have to sacrifice this open world aspect to keep graphical fidelity.

Now that you're older, you're probably seeing into the fundamentals of these older games and seeing that they're linear, and as such you're somewhat turned off by that. Final Fantasy VII manages to hide it's linearity pretty well until the second disc- at which point you're hooked on the game, so that's why it probably manages to keep your interest

 

[dimensional]

No I dont think they are getting worse they have always been a mixed bag the PS1/PS2 era were the best years in general for Jrpgs for me before that I found them by and large pretty terrible and now they fail to hold my interest as much (mind you that applies to all rpgs now not just jrpgs).

Although there was of course Xenoblade Chronicles and The Last Story both of which I absolutely loved and Lost Odyssey was pretty good as well oh and Disgaea is still as good as it ever was. I would recommend trying one of these especially Xenoblade if you are becoming disillusioned with modern jrpgs. (I even stopped playing Persona 4 until I had completed Xenoblade and Persona 4 is one of my favourite jrpgs ever.)

 

[Condiments]

Its not necessarily that these games are getting worse, its just 'traditional' jrpg format is having a difficult time existing in the current videogame market. This phenomenon is not specific to jrpgs, as the supposed thriving wrpg genre is actually moving farther away from its original roots, adopting new mantles like 'action RPG'/'shooter RPG' to exist in the current game market.

Videogames, at least on the console market, are shifting more towards spatially simulated gameplay. What does that mean? More emphasis on interaction and movement within environments as gameplay, rather than stat focused character driven. Why is this? Exorbitant production costs have forced developers to turn away from appealing to niche audiences, and they must now appeal to the mass audience in order to cover expenses. More people enjoy the twitch/immediate feedback of action gameplay over the cerebral/delayed fulfillment of turn based offerings.

Its really not a matter of quality, its just developers can't make games like Persona 4 anymore due to increased cost of production. Personally, I would love to see their return, as I'm playing Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, and its one of the best games I've played in quite a while.

 

[scorptatious]

Well I'm currently playing Xenoblade Chronicles, and from what I've played of it so far, it's really good. I love the battle system, I love the characters, I love the environments, so far it's probably the best JRPG I've played next to Final Fantasy IX.

So no, I don't necessarily think JRPG's are getting worse. Although I'll admit FFXIII had some wasted potential.

Also, does anyone remember Blue Dragon? A game that came out back when the 360 first came out? No one seems to talk about it. :/

 

[The Abhorrent]

I wouldn't quite limit this feeling to JRPGs, gaming in general seems to be losing some of the magic it used to have. Perhaps a bit harsh to say so, but I think the massive boost of the medium's popularity this last generation has something to do with it; we're seeing more sequels, more uninspired clones, and more games in general. There still are a few gems out there, but they seem to be much harder to find. JRPGs just seem to be taking the brunt of the blow, probably due in no small part due to the Final Fantasy series (as the de facto flagship of the genre) having quality issues.

However!... There's been a beacon of hope, quite recently no less.

Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii has proven itself to be the kind of game JRPGs used to be; well, apart from not having top-of-the-line visuals. It's not really a re-imagining of the genre, more of a throwback to the classic games we've been missing the last several years. Again, that's not really limited to JRPGs. The most surprising bit is that it comes as apart of a franchise (that has a tendency to move between publishers) which is generally known for being a bit more intellectual/philosophical/something than your average game; they dialed back on the weighty material (it's still there in a way, just not as prevalent), and the Xenoblade Chronicles seems to have benefitted immensely from this shift.

The game still takes advantage of many modern improvements (save anywhere, checkpoints, open-world exploration), but the core of the game's structure seems to be a textbook case of how to make one of the grand adventures of old that anyone could enjoy. Yes, it can be a tad cliched from time to time; but it does it all so well that you won't care about that. One could easily call it the equivalent of Dragon Age: Origins for JRPGs; a throwback to the classics, which shows exactly why they were classics in the first place.

---

JRPGs have been in a rut for quite some time now, but it's been very hard to say exactly why as the same time. I believe the truth of the matter is that they'd forgotten the core of what made them create in the first place -- the grand adventure. Quite simply, it's high-time the genre's developpers got back to basics; the cliched adventure story, with a pacing you almost set a timer to (the idyllic start in the doomed hometown, the mid-story twist which shows things are not as they seem, the growth from small to saving the world), is a cliche for a reason.

Maybe it's because all the old boys have started to retire, and their sucessors haven't come to realize the value of the old formulas. They really should just go and make a game which follows the structure of the classics to a T; they'll find out why the classics worked so well, and from there they can start experimenting with the formulas while being able to maintain the magic of a classic game.

---

When you get down to it, genres don't really "go bad" or "die"; more often than not, it's just that they've been having some trouble adjusting to some shift due to a new technology. This is especially true of genres which were known to create classic games; they were good for a reason, they just have to find it again.

After all, classics... never go out of style.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

I'm not going to comment on the current state of JRPGs, we've been up and down that road on this site often enough.

Since you don't have any fun with Final Fantasy 9 or any of the other "old school" JRPGs, that seems to hint that your taste are just changing. I love RPGs, especially JRPGs, they're the type of game I grew up on, and I feel like I have more tolerance for the standard stories and stereotypes we seen in these games all to often.

RPGs as a genre pride themselves in being long games, since I now balance a full time job with my only days off being weekends, I just don't have the time to dedicate to them, in fact, a six hour game run on a Saturday which I've made absolutely no progress in the story (just grinding) feels like a complete waste.

I've found I'm more likely to finish action games like Uncharted or little DS RPGS like Solatorobo. I cringe at the idea of going back and playing a game like Final Fantasy 7, because of the sheer amount of time it takes to get the golden chocobo alone and since I'm a completionist when it comes to these things, I just don't even want to bother.

 

[Strain42]

I know in my case it's just that my tastes changed, and oddly enough I can pinpoint the time frame where it happened.

In 2005 there was a game released for the GBA called Riviera: The Promised Land. I ate this game up. I loved it. I beat it multiple times, got all the endings except for the pigtailed girl because I didn't like her. I had fun with this game.

In 2007, they released an enhanced port of it for the PSP. I had just gotten a PSP only about a month ago, I was excited to get some games for it, and I picked it up when I could...but truth is...I just didn't like it. I could barely get through the tutorial. Just like...every line from every character seemed to make me cringe.

That's when I sort of realized I had grown out of them. Almost every* JRPG I've tried since then has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm at the point now where I'm VERY skeptical about buying any of them.

Maybe they have gotten worse, and maybe they haven't. I know I can still play games like Earthbound, Super Mario RPG, Final Fantasy IX, etc. etc. without any problems, but if I tried to use those as examples of JRPGs getting worse people would just say I'm blinded by nostalgia (and maybe I am a little bit)

All I know right now is that I'm going to give Curse of the White Witch an honest chance, and a pretty big part of me hopes that I enjoy it.

But yes, I know my own personal tastes have made me shy away from the vast majority of JRPGs on the market today.

*I will say this though, I do greatly enjoy MegaTen and Pokemon. Those are the only JRPGs that regularly stay on my radar.

 

[80Maxwell08]

I'm going to say it depends very much on where you look. Whereas developers like Namco Bandai will only listen to themselves and throw anyone else's opinions into a nearby furnace others will actively listen and try to improve.

For example one of my favorite series, the Ys series, has gone through multiple core changes in its history. Going from using the bump system (attacking by running into enemies) to a button based system, from 2d isometric to 3d with a moderate focus on platforming, from a single playable character to a party based system. They haven't been afraid to change at all and have been trying to be as good as possible.

Then there's the fairly large amount of games that still maintain the turn based menu combat like quite a few of NIS America's localized games and look how they are turning out. They outright apologized for Last Rebellion saying it wasn't high enough quality to sell and they were sorry to anyone who bought it. Then Trinity Universe came out and while it wasn't the worst game ever it was pretty worthless having some wierd combo system tied into it that really didn't add anything. Then Hyperdimension Neptunia came along and is easily the worst game I've ever played period. The game is almost identical to Trinity Universe in many ways but has a whole bunch of new problems like the game feeling like it plays at 15 FPS, 1 joke characters that will drive you mad beyond mad, the worst attempt I've ever heard at making old school chip music, and oh so many more.

However there's also plenty of great games like others have mentioned as well. Regardless of what my feelings on Namco Bandai are the Tales series is still a great series and I can recommend most of their games. Square Enix themselves have a massive amount of RPGs in their back catalog that are just amazing like the Star Ocean games, the Valkyrie Profile series, the Mana series, and way more that I haven't played like the Front Mission games, the Parasite Eve games, the Saga series, etc.

So really it just depends. I can't say as a whole is they are getting worse since I haven't played every single one made but who has. That's the problem with trying to make statements about any part of the industry. It's so large you don't know how much more is happening you don't know about. So if you are thinking it's getting worse I would suggest try looking into other games in that part of the industry. You might be surprised at what you find.

EDIT: Forgot to bring them up but I would highly suggest checking out XSEED's localizations. They bring over some awesome games like the Ys series, the Trails of the Sky game recently on the PSP, Half Minute Hero, and so many more. Trust me they are worth a look. Also Ys the Oath in Felghana (the 3rd game in the series) and Ys Origins (a prequel to the whole series by several hundred years) are on Steam for $15 and $20. Highly recommended especially if they are discounted during the upcoming summer sale.

 

[TheCommanders]

As a fan of many JRPGs, yes they are definitely getting worse, it's not your imagination. Whereas many other genres are taking strides forward, this one is content to stagnate.

 

[Cheesepower5]

It's not really getting worse as an entire entity of genres, that's like saying platformers became shitty at any point in time. Platformers never suddenly became shitty, there've just been many points in video gaming history where people put out choppy, carbon-copy platforming games. For JRPGs, they crept off the main stream and the ones that still remain in most news publications are just the all flash Final Fantasy's of new and the odd other title. The best JRPGs (And Final Fantasy's for that matter,) are just the smaller budget spin-off titles. FF7 had its moment at the top like Super Mario Bros, people moved on, mainstream JRPGs have yet to entirely. The good news is, we have all the time in the world for them to get back up. You know, when CoD falls, then maybe some other genre comes up, then maybe JRPGs again. Or, you know, not. It's pretty random.

 

[Epona]

Well, JRPG's have changed. The pace keeps getting slower and slower thanks to loading, long animations, tutorials, long cutscenes and voice acting (most people can read faster than the text is spoken). Also, better graphics have made the experience worse. It never occurred to me the some SNES sprites were actually drawn in an anime style and that was a good thing. I can't stand what most JRPG's look like today.

Both in terms of voice acting and graphics, JRPG's were better when we could use our imagination. Marle sounded how YOU thought she should sound, she didn't sound like Vanille!

 

[Epona]

I think the Japanese Market has diverged from the Western Market in many ways, mainly in terms of how important we hold aesthetics. I'm not saying this is a black and white issue, I think both markets want good graphics AND good gameplay, but The Elder Scrolls developers are going to put more effort into a deep experience and Final Fantasy developers will try and recreate the iconic aesthetics of the past, because in the west the quality of a game is measured in depth of narrative and polish, as opposed to eastern ideals of character design, iconic aesthetics and fan appeal.

As a consequence of this, I think JRPGs are evolving away from heavy investment in plot and more towards perfecting graphics, set pieces and, for lack of a better term, 'photo-ops' for it's protagonists. MGS 4 certainly felt skewed towards the cutscenes (though I liked the gameplay more than most, and didn't resent those cutscenes) Final Fantasy XIII obviously felt like a rail shooter for all of the three or so hours I bothered to put into it before getting my money back.

In short I agree that the JRPGs are going downhill, I have elaborated on the reasons and I feel it makes sense.

ps. As someone who is closely connected with the Anime industry, I see a lot of the principles and fan trends that develop in the otakus translating to the quality control, aesthetics and content of most anime, mainstream or otherwise. I would not be surprised if this was mirrored in the gaming industry.

Yeah, I remember getting pulled into a battle screen the last time I played Call of Duty...wait! Are you serious? FF13 may have been on rails but a shooter? Did you really play it for 3 hours?