Question for anti-gun:

[lemby117]

snip

OP, just to help you out, since all these people from foreign countries like to post about the UK and lack of gun violence... all you need to do is look at the England riots and how the police did nothing (since they had no firearms) and had to wait for backup to confront looters, who by that time where done and ran away to coordinate another attack via social media.

EDIT: it's a very interesting read and look into a country that has to handle modern situations with lack of firearms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots

Yes look how awful it is that because the police were not carrying guns they could not callously end the life of a human being.

If the police felt it was necessary we would have used rubber bullets and water cannons, instead we waited a couple of days and moved in, arresting many of the rioters and only one death occurred. In the UK you could not equip just the police with weapons, the civilians would want them, if they had them those riots would have had a death toll in the 1000's

Edit: I should also point out that those riots started because a policeman shot somebody dead.

 

[ElPatron]

No-one seems to feel that they should have the right to have axle blades sticking out of their car's wheels and bayonets strapped to the grille, like something out of Death Race 2000, so why can't basic guns be enough when it comes to the right to be armed?

Uh, I would actually love to have those axle blades, oil slick, smoke, steel caltrops, smoke emitters and a parachute.

With a flamethrower on the driver's side to fend off carjackers. Look for it, it was actually considered and developed for South Africa.

OT: Look, machine guns are heavily restricted, rare and expensive. Nobody is hunting with Uzis.

The problem in gun control arguments is that people don't know shit about guns. Which is okay by itself. But you kind of need to know about something before you hate it, right?

If the police felt it was necessary we would have used rubber bullets and water cannons, instead we waited a couple of days and moved in, arresting many of the rioters and only one death occurred. In the UK you could not equip just the police with weapons, the civilians would want them, if they had them those riots would have had a death toll in the 1000's

Because everyone would riot if they had the knowledge that the police were armed, and so would the civilians.

The Koreantown in the LA riots was attacked, so the Korean store-owners climbed to their roofs with rifles and bandanas on their head. Problem solved.

 

[ElPatron]

I'm not against the idea of people being allowed to own guns, but I think it is too easy to buy a gun in America, particularly ones that are inordinate in what a person would need for home or self defence (what possible reason would you need an AK-47 to defend yourself with, or a grenade launcher).

If a person wants to buy any gun they should be trained, tested and have full background checks (yes I know some guns you do need licences and such). Especially since the main amendment that advocates the ownership of guns actually says "A well regulated militia".

Buying a gun requires a clean record. Buying an AK-47 pattern assault rifle requires you to track down one of the rare AK-47s in existence (milled receiver, they were replaced by the AKM with stamped receivers) and pay a huge sum - I am not sure how expensive an AK-47 is because it's a very special piece of memorabilia. However it's probably close to 10,000 bucks or even higher.

You will have to convince the owner to sell it and then pay a $200 tax stamp for the ATF to accept the transference of a machine gun. Their background check is even more thorough an can take some time. They will investigate your life and probably call former employees.

If you want a grenade launcher, you will have to pay a $200 tax stamp for every live grenade you want to own and it will have to be accepted by the ATF since it's a Destructive Device.


TL;DR you have no idea how things work in America so please don't complain about it until you do

Spoiler: let me tell you about your country and how their people live!

 

[the doom cannon]

Why the common civilian is allowed to buy automatic weapons, and not required to store them somewhere sage is beyond me.
But the thing that boggles my mind the most is the right to have a concealed weapon.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME USA?

Lastly, second amendment this, third amendment that.... You guys realize that a constitution can be changed to stay in touch with current times, right?
You don't HAVE to keep amendments exactly how they were 250 years ago. The fore-fathers don't give a shit about anything, they're dead. You're free to modify all they wrote to keep up with the times. Every other place in the world has changed their rule book a few times, why can't you do the same?

So first paragraph on automatics. We aren't allowed to purchase or own automatics. Get your facts straight pls. Now modding a semi-automatic AR-15 into an automatic is fairly simple, but that doesn't mean we hand out machine guns all willy nilly. Despite popular belief we DO have gun control laws. Some crazies and criminals just don't like following them.

Second paragraph on the constitution. Please understand what it is and the process for getting it changed before saying ANYTHING relating to it.

TL;DR you have no idea how things work in America so please don't complain about it until you do

Spoiler: let me tell you about your country and how their people live!

THANK YOU SIR!

 

[HellsingerAngel]

Stuff about pro-gun laws.

You're right. There are a lot of facts to support that guns reduce crime rates of things like theft. No one is stupid enough to try and steal from someone when there's the distinct possibility that they have a firearm, even if the thief has a firearm as well. The risk is too great for the reward.

The problem with your argument is within statistics that you posted yourself.

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

When you have less gun control, you have more fatal encounters. Within the fifteen countries that had the most gun related deaths under the age of fifteen, the U.S. not only is the highest on the list but it almost tripled the second highest country. I might also note that Finland has pretty relaxed gun control laws as well, but they are much stricter than the United States.

The problem isn't so much in the fact that gun control doesn't stop crime, the problem is that it also creates an influx of much more violent crime. Murder might be down by a percentage, but the flat numbers are still grossly out of proportion from other countries. The U.S. still leads the first world in homicide. This isn't even going into the fact that the U.S. also has a very poor health care program which only exacerbates the issue or how many individuals are acquitted because of self defense. Guns promote violent solutions, unfortunately, which is the entire problem of a system with little to no gun control.

As a side note, I'm glad you posted something that was pro-gun control, if unknowingly, because it shows you use fair statistics. =)

Captach: know your rights. How appropriate.

 

[Exocet]

Why the common civilian is allowed to buy automatic weapons, and not required to store them somewhere sage is beyond me.
But the thing that boggles my mind the most is the right to have a concealed weapon.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME USA?

Lastly, second amendment this, third amendment that.... You guys realize that a constitution can be changed to stay in touch with current times, right?
You don't HAVE to keep amendments exactly how they were 250 years ago. The fore-fathers don't give a shit about anything, they're dead. You're free to modify all they wrote to keep up with the times. Every other place in the world has changed their rule book a few times, why can't you do the same?

So first paragraph on automatics. We aren't allowed to purchase or own automatics. Get your facts straight pls. Now modding a semi-automatic AR-15 into an automatic is fairly simple, but that doesn't mean we hand out machine guns all willy nilly. Despite popular belief we DO have gun control laws. Some crazies and criminals just don't like following them.

Second paragraph on the constitution. Please understand what it is and the process for getting it changed before saying ANYTHING relating to it.

First of all, automatic weapons aren't allowed? Funny, FPSRussia has plenty, and he lives in the USA.
Also, I'll link you these videos, showing automatic weapons being used in gun shows in the US:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X_JuKcjmf4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnU1t7UzgM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f7wTMnWbqQ&feature=related

So illegal to own automatic weapons? I think not.
You may have some gun control laws, but they are pathetic, and frankly, the laughing stock of the world.

As for the constitution, why should I need to understand the full process of the American legal and juridic system? It's a constitution, it can be changed, I don't see what your problem is with me saying it...
It's not fucking sacred text written by God, handed down to worship and pray to, it's a series of laws that can, and should be changed to fit the society's needs.

But yeah, you are right, defending a country where you can buy fucking live grenades is ok, as long as you pay a tax for every one you own, because nothing bad can happen with civilians owning grenades and automatic weapons.
Also, the rest of the world can't express how absolutely ridiculous it is.

tell yourself this, maybe there are so many threads and topic and whatnot ridiculing the USA for their stances because they're outdated or plain stupid, and that it makes the rest of the world laugh how one of the most important nations in the world, and probably the most well developed can be backwards when it comes down to a few key subjects.

 

[Exocet]

It's illegal to own automatic weapons... without a hefty licensing procedure, including close examination by the government, and certification that you have the proper premises for collecting these weapons. So while it's not entirely illegal, the average citizen cannot legally obtain automatic weapons.


AGAIN. The average citizen can NOT get their hands on this sort of equipment. Please actually get your shit together before you start spouting such uninformed bullshit.

But one CAN have them. Tell me what I got wrong, please.
A civilian can get an automatic weapon if he so desires.
How is it uninformed bullshit?

They are. A friend of mine was the volunteer fire chief out in Bastrop, where all of those wildfires happened last year. He also has many Class III firearms. His house burned to the ground and the only thing that remained was his gun safe, which is required by law to store his firearms.

Tell that to the 214 unintentional gunshot victims between 0 and 19 years old, according to the university of Michigan Health System
http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

First of all, it is highly improbable that there will be two CHLs that do not know each other in the same area as a shooting.

It's improbable, so let's ignore the problem. Great idea.

Second of all, can you find a single instance where that has actually happened? No.

You first. You seem awfully sure, put your money where your mouth it.

First of all, training is required in most states.

I love the "most" states.

Second of all, CHLs are trained to NOT intervene in such situations.

And yet, at the batman screening shooting, they all pulled out their guns.

 

[Cannibal Johnson]

My problem isn't the gun crime, its the people who use guns irresponsibly. For example, a traveling salesman was killed in Florida when he went up to a guys yard. The man who shot him said "I'll shoot anyone who comes on my property". Those are the people I don't like. And I also hate the people who think just because they have a gun they are a big bad ass and decide to become a vigilante, but end up shooting someone innocent or shoot someone who was trying to defend themselves against the "vigilante" with the gun (See Zimmerman v. Trayvon). Like I said before, its not the gun crimes its the fucking idiots who use guns irresponsibly. And no amount of gun training can make an idiot act less like an idiot

 

[Legendsmith]

-snip-

Aussie here, I have always been skeptical of the gun ownership laws in America, but your post has shown me that it does indeed make sense. Bravo sir.

 

[ElPatron]

defend themselves against the "vigilante" with the gun (See Zimmerman v. Trayvon)

The victim, with traces of THC on his blood, is a non-confrontational law abiding citizen who merely circled the evil vigilante's car, raw away and heroically approached his stalker from behind and initiated an altercation while the big baddie was returning to his car. Our victim then proceeded to beat down the vigilante, whose screams for help were heard in 911 calls, causing him gashes and what seemed to be a broken nose.

Say what you want about Zimmerman's personality, but the media have stained his image forever and he was tried by the public opinion before even having a chance in court. All because the media thought it would be funny to make Zimmerman white and modify images and phone calls.

 

[Zaik]

A note to those who being up the point "guns are only meant to kill".

Since we all know you pretty much ripped your entire argument from a Cracked article, I'd like to ask you what weapon you would recommend replacing a gun with? The article was pointing out that a gun wasn't a "defensive" weapon.

What is a defensive weapon? Preferably, name one that would actually work on any other ranged weapon invented after the 17th century.

 

[gwilym101]

I'm not against the idea of people being allowed to own guns, but I think it is too easy to buy a gun in America, particularly ones that are inordinate in what a person would need for home or self defence (what possible reason would you need an AK-47 to defend yourself with, or a grenade launcher).

If a person wants to buy any gun they should be trained, tested and have full background checks (yes I know some guns you do need licences and such). Especially since the main amendment that advocates the ownership of guns actually says "A well regulated militia".

Buying a gun requires a clean record. Buying an AK-47 pattern assault rifle requires you to track down one of the rare AK-47s in existence (milled receiver, they were replaced by the AKM with stamped receivers) and pay a huge sum - I am not sure how expensive an AK-47 is because it's a very special piece of memorabilia. However it's probably close to 10,000 bucks or even higher.

You will have to convince the owner to sell it and then pay a $200 tax stamp for the ATF to accept the transference of a machine gun. Their background check is even more thorough an can take some time. They will investigate your life and probably call former employees.

If you want a grenade launcher, you will have to pay a $200 tax stamp for every live grenade you want to own and it will have to be accepted by the ATF since it's a Destructive Device.


TL;DR you have no idea how things work in America so please don't complain about it until you do

Spoiler: let me tell you about your country and how their people live!

The AK-47 one of the most common guns in the world is rare and expensive? (cost i found in ten seconds from google was $649) So that fact that it's so wide spread being attributed to the fact it is cheap, reliable and easy to maintain is irrelevent.

You also completely missed the point of my post. You may need a clean record to buy a gun, but every criminal before they get caught for the first time has a clean record. Plus you can still buy a grenade launcher I never said it wouldn't be expensive but you can still buy it. Why should anyone be allowed to buy an explosive device whose sole purpose is to turn people into mince meat.

For all your parroting of costs to get more high caliber weapons, they're still relatively easy to get ahold of, compared to other countries (note: you can't buy a grenade launcher legally in britain). Plus aside from background checks to show a person is less likely to blow someone elses brains out, the rate of suicide deaths using firearms is more than 18 times higher than in England (total suicide rate by all means being twice as high), rate of homicides with firearms is approximately 20 times higher (total homicide rate being 50% higher).

So yes I may not know the nuances of buying a firearm in America (but you seem not to either), but I can still see the huge logical flaw in making lethal weapons that have no other use than to kill lots of people in a short space of time relatively easy to get ahold of.

If someone wants a gun for home and self defence that fine, but you don't need something much more powerful than a hunting rifle at the absolute most for that, so why should a grenade launcher or an assault rifle be available at all.

 

[Mandalore_15]

... no one is killed by a gun anywhere, it's an inanimate object.

And with this one sentence, you have just lost all credibility.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Ack, OP too long. Anyway, all I'm going to say is I'm not against guns I just think that one should be required to have a license to own and use one and each firearm should have to be registered. After all you have to have a license to drive a vehicle and your vehicle has to be registered and vehicles aren't even classified as weapons. So how unreasonable is it to require that people have a license to use a gun and to register their guns?

 

[Daveman]

Even for what has been termed the Month of the Gun Control Threads, this is getting ridiculous. Simply put, the US is a very murdery place compared to nigh-on any other western country. It may be due to guns, it may be due to Bush, it may be due to dem commies.

The threads are getting ridiculous now, but yes, we can agree one thing.

Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people.

 

[ElPatron]

ElPatron - you have NO idea what you're talking about.

I legally purchased my very own AK47 for $300 from a co-worker with absolutely no paper work involved at all. (and before anybody wets their pants, I bought it as a collectors item.)

No idea?

The AK-47 is a selective-fire, gas-operated 7.62×39mm assault rifle, first developed in the USSR by Mikhail Kalashnikov.

(...)

There were many difficulties during the initial phase of production. The first production models had stamped sheet metal receivers. Difficulties were encountered in welding the guide and ejector rails, causing high rejection rates.[30] Instead of halting production, a heavy machined receiver was substituted for the sheet metal receiver. This was a more costly process, but the use of machined receivers accelerated production as tooling and labor for the earlier Mosin-Nagant rifle's machined receiver were easily adapted. Partly because of these problems, the Soviets were not able to distribute large numbers of the new rifle to soldiers until 1956. During this time, production of the interim SKS rifle continued.[31]

Once manufacturing difficulties had been overcome, a redesigned version designated the AKM (M for "modernized" or "upgraded"?in Russian: (Автомат Калашникова Модернизированный [Avtomat Kalashnikova Modernizirovanniy]) was introduced in 1959.

Please post pic with timestamp of your Soviet made milled reviver AK47 with a fully automatic fire control group, built before 1959.

Needless to say it must be in firing condition otherwise it's not an actual firearm.

If you do not deliver, please consider yourself told.

 

[ElPatron]

The threads are getting ridiculous now, but yes, we can agree one thing.

Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people.

Anders Breivik is American. In fact, every gun homicide in the world is perpetrated by an American.

Ack, OP too long. Anyway, all I'm going to say is I'm not against guns I just think that one should be required to have a license to own and use one and each firearm should have to be registered. After all you have to have a license to drive a vehicle and your vehicle has to be registered and vehicles aren't even classified as weapons. So how unreasonable is it to require that people have a license to use a gun and to register their guns?

Because licenses and registration prevent car crashes.

Gun registrations are worthless. They do not prevent deaths, and if a a body shows up with a bullet hole there is no way the registry is ever going to help. They are only good for governments, not for saving human lives.

 

[Darkmantle]

The threads are getting ridiculous now, but yes, we can agree one thing.

Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people.

Anders Breivik is American. In fact, every gun homicide in the world is perpetrated by an American.

Ack, OP too long. Anyway, all I'm going to say is I'm not against guns I just think that one should be required to have a license to own and use one and each firearm should have to be registered. After all you have to have a license to drive a vehicle and your vehicle has to be registered and vehicles aren't even classified as weapons. So how unreasonable is it to require that people have a license to use a gun and to register their guns?

Because licenses and registration prevent car crashes.

Gun registrations are worthless. They do not prevent deaths, and if a a body shows up with a bullet hole there is no way the registry is ever going to help. They are only good for governments, not for saving human lives.

You have a poor understanding of forensics then. Gun registries are important and useful in tracking down criminals. You can often Identify what kind of gun has been used by shell casings and other methods. If you have a list of everyone who owns that model of gun, you have narrowed your suspects.

And before you bring it up, most people who commit murder or poaching are not hardened criminals, and have often registered their guns. It has helped the police greatly.

 

[ElPatron]

My AK47 was built in Romania in 2003. It's semi-automatic, but it's still a REAL AK47.

YOU are the one who failed to specify which type of AK47 you were talking about. So no, you didn't "tell" anybody.

First, it's an AKM pattern rifle unless it has a milled receiver and the other subtle differences in the gas block, barrel profile etc.

Built in Romania in 2003. Therefore not part of the exclusive machineguns, which have to be registered before 1986.

I did not specify the type of AK47? It's an AK47, there is only a handful of different kinds of AK47 rifles and they are all AK47s. Yours is a WASR - and I don't even know the caliber.

So if you think I was wrong, just say it instead of dragging this further. But the fact is that I quoted a person saying this:

I think it is too easy to buy a gun in America, particularly ones that are inordinate in what a person would need for home or self defence (what possible reason would you need an AK-47 to defend yourself with, or a grenade launcher).

Unless you think that fully automatic assault rifles are easy to buy, or that semi-automatic rifles are not suitable for home defense, then don't try to play games.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

The threads are getting ridiculous now, but yes, we can agree one thing.

Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people.

Anders Breivik is American. In fact, every gun homicide in the world is perpetrated by an American.

Ack, OP too long. Anyway, all I'm going to say is I'm not against guns I just think that one should be required to have a license to own and use one and each firearm should have to be registered. After all you have to have a license to drive a vehicle and your vehicle has to be registered and vehicles aren't even classified as weapons. So how unreasonable is it to require that people have a license to use a gun and to register their guns?

Because licenses and registration prevent car crashes.

Gun registrations are worthless. They do not prevent deaths, and if a a body shows up with a bullet hole there is no way the registry is ever going to help. They are only good for governments, not for saving human lives.

Umm... no they don't. There are many many (I don't know the actual numbers) car crashes every year, licenses and registrations be damned.
Besides can't a bullet be traced back to the gun that fired it? I assumed that part of CSI was based on real life forensics and not something the creators pulled out of their ass.