Question for anti-gun:

[mrdude2010]

snip

The reason gun control in the U.S. isn't working is because they're going about it all the wrong way, and it's probably too late to even attempt. There are already so many guns in the country that unless we went out of our way to round them all up, trying to stop people from buying them now won't work. Also, the U.S. tends to go about gun control in a more local sense- an individual state or city banning the use of certain weapons, and that's just stupid. If you can't buy a gun in one city, what's to stop you from going to the next city over?

Gun control laws by themselves aren't the problem, the way the laws are implemented are. If you wanted to reduce gun violence at this point, your best bet would be to make the penalties for owning an illegal firearm much harsher. It's not worth it for a criminal to brandish around an illegal weapon for a measly $150 from a gas station if he knows he might spend 20 years in prison because of it.
Besides, you could also point to the huge crime rate decrease from the early 90's to the mid 2000's when the Brady Bill was active as evidence that banning assault weapons can help reduce crime.

Except that the crime rate decrease you're talking about started before the brady bill was passed and continued afterwards, long afterwards, those rates are still decreasing. Also, gun control doesn't reduce crime rates anywhere, it's not just a US problem.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

You're right. That one year on each side based on funding the police properly is totally evidence of gun control not working. my mistake.

Also, crime rate definitely increased after the Brady Bill, but nice try.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

This arguement needs to stop. Seriously. "Dont make them illegal, criminals dont follow laws so there isnt any point making them illegal".

Question. Why is owning nukes illegal? Criminals don't follow laws so they should be able to get nukes and hold entire cities to ransom for VAST sums of money all the time like in batman. Therefor nukes should be llegal for every citizen to own since we only make them illegal to stop criminals from getting them and criminals avoid laws so making them illegal doesnt make any difference at all. Laws have zero to no effect on stopping anyone from doing something ever. People just WALK into secret bases all the time and take things! They are criminals after all. They dont follow laws so whats the point?

Oh wait. Laws. Are. ENFORCED. Its HARD for a Criminal to get a gun in England BECAUSE its illegal. You gotta smuggle them in from overseas, move them, sell them and evade capture at ALL TIMES. That makes it hard and EXPENSIVE. This restricts their sale massively.

I shoot for fun down at the range. My gun is safely under lock and key and it NEVER leaves the range. I LOVE shooting. Just doesnt need to come home with me. Im against an armed population. But you cant undo an armed population. Its too late for america now so its safest to leave it how it is. Its EASY for American criminals to get guns EVEN illegally. It is NOT easy for English criminals to get guns illegally. Thats the difference. We have an ocean, VERY little firearms floating around and llegal sellers are very rare and licences are very difficult to obtain. We are safe. Firearms are a one way street. Once everyone is armed everyone needs to stay armed since a "hand in" is ridiculous. Unarmed societies should stay unarmed if possible though. Oceans help.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Maybe you should have read a little closer to what I had to say. I am pro-gun control, I am also not American and come from a country with gun control laws. I think owning a gun should be treated exactly like owning a care. Which means, training, licencing and registering. All I am saying is, gun control will not stop crazy people from doing crazy things. The Genies out of the bottle, guns are out there on the market and there's nothing we can do about it. If some one really wants to shoot up a bunch of people who will probably do it. (Unless he slips up and gets caught.) There are lots of reasons to be pro-gun control, worrying about a small minority of crazy people isn't one of them.

Then I stand corrected, I seem to have misunderstood what you were getting at.
It's quite a personal subject for me, the whole Breivik massacre

snip

How many people in Norway do you think can actually make a gun?
Sure, there's bound to be a lot of instructions on some dubious website, but guns used for anything else than hunting are so uncommon in Norway.
I find it rather impressive that Breivik actually managed to tinker with his gun at all.
He didn't even finish high school.

And yes, I see your point, It was stupid of me to mention the whole part of him getting his parts from America, when I didn't really want to touch this topic at all.

snip

I stand corrected then on the whole buying guns on the internet thing.
And I know very well that massacres doesn't happen that often in America.

On the magazine making. That's not something a normal Norwegian would have been able to do and neither did our dear Breivik.
What he did do though was buy gardening stuff and build one hell of a huge bomb and blew up Norways seat of power.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

How many people in Norway do you think can actually make a gun?
Sure, there's bound to be a lot of instructions on some dubious website, but guns used for anything else than hunting are so uncommon in Norway.
I find it rather impressive that Breivik actually managed to tinker with his gun at all.
He didn't even finish high school.

Have you ever ?tinkered? with a gun before? I have, in fact I am a licensed gunsmith (still, god help me). It is easy to make a gun. Hell, PRISONERS have made guns INSIDE of prison. Do not underestimate human ingenuity.

http://www.correctionsone.com/contraband/articles/1961780-15-deadly-improvised-prison-weapons-and-tools/

On the magazine making. That's not something a normal Norwegian would have been able to do and neither did our dear Breivik.

He didn?t but he could have. A magazine is just a box with a spring in it. Who the hell can?t build one of those?

I sure as hell can't build one, but yeah, I get your point.
It was ignorant of me not to think that he'd manage to do something if he didn't manage to buy a gun.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Oh, wait. Is that why London has 3,3 times more rapes than New York City? Is that why violent crime has rose in Australia?

- In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
- Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
- Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

I can't speak for London, but that's simply not true of Australia. Pro-gun groups in the US often falsely claim that Australia became much more dangerous after weapons restrictions were tightened following Port Arthur, and generally avoid giving actual statistics gathered in Australia.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.aspx

You'll also note, that in that article about Australia, it mentions about "the gun ban" several times. That's a total fantasy, guns are not banned in Australia.

(As an aside, while trying to find out which illegal weapons are most common in Australia, and which are most commonly built in backyards or whatever, came across the statistic that 1.3% are believed to be homemade...didn't find out what models predominate, though, beyond handguns are the majority of illegal firearms)

 

[gufftroad]

How many people in Norway do you think can actually make a gun?
Sure, there's bound to be a lot of instructions on some dubious website, but guns used for anything else than hunting are so uncommon in Norway.
I find it rather impressive that Breivik actually managed to tinker with his gun at all.
He didn't even finish high school.

And yes, I see your point, It was stupid of me to mention the whole part of him getting his parts from America, when I didn't really want to touch this topic at all.

if you want to know how easy it is to make a gun please look up the sten any variant it is just a milled bit of steal with a point in a tube the trigger is the most complicated part and it has all of 3 parts followed by the magazine tell me some one in Norway cant look that up and make one

 

[ElPatron]

"the gun ban" several times. That's a total fantasy, guns are not banned in Australia

I know. It's a ban. It involves guns. So I call it the "ban" or the "gun ban". I am not going to literally enumerate every item that was banned.

Like my sources stated, there is no statistical influence of the "restriction" since those guns were taken away from legal owners. Said ban was a kneejerk reaction because the crime figures did not justify banning that type or firearms.

The Australian Bureau of Criminology itself says that there is no correlation between gun control and violent crime.

Overall, do you really think that reducing the gun ownership percentage from 7% to 5% has had any *real* effect?

Oh wait. Laws. Are. ENFORCED. Its HARD for a Criminal to get a gun in England BECAUSE its illegal.

No, it's not... Most "small time" criminals won't ever need a gun with them, so forget about the chavs and teenage delinquents. If a real criminal wants a gun in the UK, he's going to get it. Simply put, there is a black market for them even if nobody uses them. And there are people afraid to be caught with an illegal gun, or even people who will deal with anything.

I met an American guy once. He had to work night shifts in London and he felt so unsafe he got his hands on a black market Makarov. He spent more than a year with it, without anyone ever guessing. When he was going back to America, he threw it into some place it would rust.

Thing is: there is no point in committing crimes with a gun in the UK, so criminals rather not use them.

Also, licenses are difficult to obtain? A SAC is very easy to obtain, children as young as 11 have got it.


Do you even know how hard it is to make the simplest nuke? Because I know how, and it is ridiculously hard. Mostly because even if you stumble on a nuclear powerplant's stockpile, the uranium available is not weapons grade.

I find it rather impressive that Breivik actually managed to tinker with his gun at all.
He didn't even finish high school.

Because it takes a college diploma to learn how to operate power tools. Jebus H. Christ, 30 years ago every male half of my age could probably accomplish what Breivik did.

 

[spartan231490]

snip

The reason gun control in the U.S. isn't working is because they're going about it all the wrong way, and it's probably too late to even attempt. There are already so many guns in the country that unless we went out of our way to round them all up, trying to stop people from buying them now won't work. Also, the U.S. tends to go about gun control in a more local sense- an individual state or city banning the use of certain weapons, and that's just stupid. If you can't buy a gun in one city, what's to stop you from going to the next city over?

Gun control laws by themselves aren't the problem, the way the laws are implemented are. If you wanted to reduce gun violence at this point, your best bet would be to make the penalties for owning an illegal firearm much harsher. It's not worth it for a criminal to brandish around an illegal weapon for a measly $150 from a gas station if he knows he might spend 20 years in prison because of it.
Besides, you could also point to the huge crime rate decrease from the early 90's to the mid 2000's when the Brady Bill was active as evidence that banning assault weapons can help reduce crime.

Except that the crime rate decrease you're talking about started before the brady bill was passed and continued afterwards, long afterwards, those rates are still decreasing. Also, gun control doesn't reduce crime rates anywhere, it's not just a US problem.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

You're right. That one year on each side based on funding the police properly is totally evidence of gun control not working. my mistake.

Also, crime rate definitely increased after the Brady Bill, but nice try.

Try two years before, and 6 years and counting after. Crime rate did not increase after the Brady Bill, check you're facts. Firstly, the Brady Bill is still around, secondly, crime rates are still decreasing and the Assault Weapon Ban went out of effect in 2004. I don't know what is causing our crime rates to steadily decline right now, but I can tell you one thing: it isn't gun control.